UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[j.a.luna]

i saw about mod ad mari a mare, is possible add serbian,lithuanian and teutonic roster for sship? you show this units to sship team? they are wonderfuls!

http://www.moddb.com/mods/ad-mari-a-...emen1#imagebox

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some time ago I commented on incorporating these units and other things, perhaps Kostic (since you are in charge of adding units and new skins for sship), take a look at the old posts of this thread such as this one for units and city models for the campaign map for factions like Lithuanians, Cumans, Teutons, Poles ...

[kostic]

Interesting indeed. This modder could help us improve some units in Eastern Europe in particular.

[j.a.luna]

a small suggestion regarding the papal units, currently at the beginning of the game there is the "papal guard" who are like professional spearmen with a lot of morals, and then come the "Swiss guard" who are strong halberdiers and I think historically correct representing the Renaissance Swiss Guard or a "proto Swiss Guard".

But as for the initial unit instead of professional spearmen, wouldn't you think that the Pope would have a knight's guard? I say recreating them as if they were knights with the best armor of their time (kite shield, chain mail and others and norman helmet or covered helmet) and the best weapons such as good swords, even that they could know how to use thrown weapons such as javelins or the use of bow / crossbow.
An elite unit for the Pope, in addition to counting his papal badges on his clothes and shields.
And of course with very good stats and morale but low level of recruitment and expensive.

Would it be possible to modify this unit or do you think it is correct as it currently is?

[j.a.luna]

Jurand/Kostic, is possible make a "transition from Seljuk empire to Khwarezmians / Persians as the game progresses?
Similar to the transitions currently in sship for fatimids / mamluks , Rum selyuks/ottomans, Georgian reforms ...
It would be to add more units of Persian style / heavy cavalry ... from a few years (1180 ??) Keep in mind that the Seljuk empire fell around the year 1190 ...
You could start out as the Seljuk empire and transition to the Kwharezmian empire to fight the Mongols ...

This example could be the same for transition to Almoravids/ Almohads ( if not is possible the script invasion of almohads...)


MEDIEVAL PERSIAN UNITS AND INFORMATION

https://www.moddb.com/mods/one-ruler...hdom-of-persia

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorezmitas

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...iew&styleid=54

https://www.moddb.com/mods/medieval-...regional-units

[kostic]

I am not competent with this strategic aspect of SSHIP. Bringing out factions must be quite complicated to achieve satisfactorily because if it requires changing the units or simply their names, it would be a colossal job ...


My Muslim units look better but are they historically accurate ?
I am indeed not an expert and I relied a lot on the descriptions provided by the game (I also used your doc of course ! ).
Concretely, they must be able to suit as well on the side of the Seldjukids as that of the Moors since we find the same type of unit in these factions so distant.
With this starting axiom, you see that the task is difficult. My field of work does indeed focus only on the aspect of the units present in the SSHIP.

For those keen to use my new Muslim units, enjoy some unit and model upgrades for the strategy map, download my file KCC 0.9.6 beta
you can simply copy / overwrite the data folder in Medieval II Total War / mods / SS6.3 /


This patch is save game compatible.

WARNING: not having yet reviewed the EDU of the dataXIII folder, you should not use the latter; unless you overwrite the EDU of the latter folder with the EDU contained in this patch.

[j.a.luna]

I am not competent with this strategic aspect of SSHIP. Bringing out factions must be quite complicated to achieve satisfactorily because if it requires changing the units or simply their names, it would be a colossal job ...


My Muslim units look better but are they historically accurate ?
I am indeed not an expert and I relied a lot on the descriptions provided by the game (I also used your doc of course ! ).
Concretely, they must be able to suit as well on the side of the Seldjukids as that of the Moors since we find the same type of unit in these factions so distant.
With this starting axiom, you see that the task is difficult. My field of work does indeed focus only on the aspect of the units present in the SSHIP.

For those keen to use my new Muslim units, enjoy some unit and model upgrades for the strategy map, download my file KCC 0.9.6 beta
you can simply copy / overwrite the data folder in Medieval II Total War / mods / SS6.3 /


This patch is save game compatible.

WARNING: not having yet reviewed the EDU of the dataXIII folder, you should not use the latter; unless you overwrite the EDU of the latter folder with the EDU contained in this patch.

Yes kostic, for this in the current sship (no new units) it is important focus on the regional units of each faction, although several cultural factions (for example Muslims) may share several units (Anhdath militia, Faris, Arab spearmen ...), they should have their unique regional units and later you can add or modify more units historical to sship mod.

For example, it would be a great advance if you could give new models to the Andalusian units (as well as add more units, as I put a long time ago in my post on Castilian and Moors)
The Iberian Moors / Christians would have the Andalusian units and the Abbasid / Seljuks would have the Persian units.
if you need I can offer you more information and images about the units you need to remmodel.

I will test the beta version to see your magnificent units!

[VINC.XXIII]

a small suggestion regarding the papal units, currently at the beginning of the game there is the "papal guard" who are like professional spearmen with a lot of morals, and then come the "Swiss guard" who are strong halberdiers and I think historically correct representing the Renaissance Swiss Guard or a "proto Swiss Guard".

But as for the initial unit instead of professional spearmen, wouldn't you think that the Pope would have a knight's guard? I say recreating them as if they were knights with the best armor of their time (kite shield, chain mail and others and norman helmet or covered helmet) and the best weapons such as good swords, even that they could know how to use thrown weapons such as javelins or the use of bow / crossbow.
An elite unit for the Pope, in addition to counting his papal badges on his clothes and shields.
And of course with very good stats and morale but low level of recruitment and expensive.

Would it be possible to modify this unit or do you think it is correct as it currently is?

The pope also had contingents from Arago*(1000 knights, 500 infantrymen-includes 100 crossbowmen or this can be replaced by 5 galleys, treaty from ~1297).

*those were provided because Arago received the investiture for Regnum Sardinie et Corsice, I believe by 15th century there were still some aragonese soldiers, because some diplomatic letter mentions in Rome a fight between catalan and corsican soldiers from corsican lords(all serving the pope), the latter being also bound to provide men to the pope, their overlord, albeit I don't have the details of those 15th century soldiers in papal service.

The treaty clearly mentions the soldiers provided by Arago must be from the lands of Arago(and not italian mercenaries...).

[Mamlaz]

I just noticed that this submod removed the ubercool merc Slavic javelin unit from SS with the kewl outfit model and instead we have the vanilla Slav spearmen with the boring vanilla model.

Why in God's name was this done lol?

[Jurand of Cracow]

I just noticed that this submod removed the ubercool merc Slavic javelin unit from SS with the kewl outfit model and instead we have the vanilla Slav spearmen with the boring vanilla model.

Why in God's name was this done lol?

Can you provide the pic? I have nothing to do with the unit models, but it'd be interesting to know what you're talking about (and given that I have nothing to do with the unit models, I can get it easily )

[Mamlaz]

EDIT; my bad, messed up some files

[Mamlaz]

So here's some cents;

peasant inf should be removed entirely, it serves no purpose, serfs weren't drafted to wars and in the rare instances that they were, they would be supplied with equipment, so you'd get the various militia units you already have in the roster

Arquebuisers model is the musketeer(late renaissance clothing) model, it should be the same as the hand gunner(armor and earlier cloth) model without the shields.

Sword buckler unit should be reduced from 163 to 123 men.

Militia pike and burgher pike should have their att increased from 1 to 2, they engage late units and 1 is simply useless. Their arm and def stats are low enough for this to not make them op while still viable.

jinetes need new model, bug.

gendarmes, reduced by 10 men

flagellant - remove unit, it is silly, as in, its existence is silly. or rename it

Slavic spear merc still have old model, replace it with the Slavic javelin merc model and use the shields, just give them spears instead of javelins. Remove vanilla spears tho.

Cossak gunner model bug.

Arquebuisers(+late) and hand gunners should have a +4 to + 8 missile dmg increase to make them viable.

Mounted arquebuisers and cossack arquebuisers should be reduced -20 men.

Marinae; remove the silly clubs, give them long spears like the beduin pikemen, or just have everyone with hatchets and axes.

Men at arms(two handed poleaxe); -20 men, + 4 armor

haldberd men at arms; -20 men, +3 armor


Archers;

dunno, some seem quite op, but I fear reducing them makes them too nerfed.

The Serbian Foot Vlastela are def op though, considering their other stats lol

Some horse archers are quite weaker for no reason, some have 4 others 2 missile attack despite being basically same quality troop.

Akinji should not be an high grade ha unit, they were irregulars irl, increase their unit number by 40 men and decrease their missile attack by 2.

Longbowmen and other archers should not carry butter knives, it looks ridiculous lol, give them other weapon models.
Burgundian longbowmen were famously ordered to carry longswords, perhaps some swords would be good.

Contaratoi; -30 men, +2 armor and +1 att

Toxotae; silly that such a unit has the same missile attack as village archers lol, should be 3 or 4, considering the other archer units who have the same


Very disappointed that Novgorod has no javelin units, that is quite weird.

My advice is to give Junior Militia javelins.

This would also give Kiev another javelin unit, which it should have.

Chudy; -30 men, +3 armor, +1 att

Pagan fanatics of Lithuania could also be given javelins, would make them far more kewl without op.




Had much fun playing.

Though by far the most disappointing thing was to see vanilla weaponry still in use by some models, it is utterly ugly.

When I see some superb swords or spear models from mods fighting it out and then another unit are wielding vanilla horrid clunk it completely takes me out of the mod.

The mod has access to so many superb unit and weapon models, use them please.


I will start going through the files again tomorrow, to try and see what else to add.

Much, mod, much fun.

[kostic]

peasant inf should be removed entirely, it serves no purpose, serfs weren't drafted to wars and in the rare instances that they were, they would be supplied with equipment, so you'd get the various militia units you already have in the roster

We do indeed intend to withdraw the peasants. But the idea that they were not recruited into armies in the Middle Ages is debatable. Many militias were above all peasants and were very partially equipped when called to war.

jinetes need new model, bug.

This surprised me. What is your version of the game? I just tested the Jinetes yesterday in a custom battle and they don't have any bugs.

flagellant - remove unit, it is silly, as in, its existence is silly. or rename it

Indeed, flagellants as well as religious fanatics are quite fanciful in terms of historicity. Jurand therefore changed their name to Armed Pilgrims for some and Pilgrim Militia for others. For my part, I am reworking their appearance.

Marinae; remove the silly clubs, give them long spears like the beduin pikemen, or just have everyone with hatchets and axes.

I redid these from what they were in the base SSHIP. I do not have any specific documentation on this unit and I admit that an entire unit wielding a club or a two-handed ax seems strange to me. I can probably change their current appearance to something more believable.

Longbowmen and other archers should not carry butter knives, it looks ridiculous lol, give them other weapon models.
Burgundian longbowmen were famously ordered to carry longswords, perhaps some swords would be good.

In the game, I distinguish the professional archers from those raised among the peasants. The daggers carried by these can optionally be diversified and upgraded for upgraded units.

Very disappointed that Novgorod has no javelin units, that is quite weird.

Jurand thought to assign Chude militia as a mercenary unit throughout the territory of the northeast. I haven't taken the time to figure out how to do it yet, but it should meet your expectation.

Though by far the most disappointing thing was to see vanilla weaponry still in use by some models, it is utterly ugly.
When I see some superb swords or spear models from mods fighting it out and then another unit are wielding vanilla horrid clunk it completely takes me out of the mod.

I am like you ! At my humble level I hope little by little to be able to make disappear all the vanilla units which are neither historically credible nor beautiful to look at. Replacing units takes a long time and we are just amateurs doing this job for fun ... not to mention keeping time to play and test our upgrades.

[Mamlaz]

We do indeed intend to withdraw the peasants. But the idea that they were not recruited into armies in the Middle Ages is debatable. Many militias were above all peasants and were very partially equipped when called to war.

Well yes, they were sometimes recruited, most often during siege defense only though, but in the sense of actually being in the army, as presented ingame, nearly always only as militia, in the sense of the militia units that already are in the roster, and those would most definitely be properly equipped, otherwise their value would not cover their expense.

This surprised me. What is your version of the game? I just tested the Jinetes yesterday in a custom battle and they don't have any bugs.

Most likely I messed something up again.

In the game, I distinguish the professional archers from those raised among the peasants. The daggers carried by these can optionally be diversified and upgraded for upgraded units.

Yes, but even retinue and some other high end archerbros carry butter knives.
This should be changed imo.
Ordinary one handed swords or falchions would be a far better take.

Jurand thought to assign Chude militia as a mercenary unit throughout the territory of the northeast. I haven't taken the time to figure out how to do it yet, but it should meet your expectation.

Why_not_both.meme

I am like you ! At my humble level I hope little by little to be able to make disappear all the vanilla units which are neither historically credible nor beautiful to look at. Replacing units takes a long time and we are just amateurs doing this job for fun ... not to mention keeping time to play and test our upgrades.

Oh ofc, I fully understand and appreciate the work of modders.
My criticism is just direct because that is how I speak ¯\(ツ)/¯

I am trying out editing the cav charges to see if cav can be nerfed without making it underpowered, is not going well haha, would be a lot easier with a dice mechanic.
Everything would lol

[Belovèse]

Just passing by, but removing the peasants would create a slot in EDB I could use to make a special levy/militia unit that would be used by the maybe-future-to-be-tested-before-deciding-to eventually-include-it garrison script.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Just passing by, but removing the peasants would create a slot in EDB I could use to make a special levy/militia unit that would be used by the maybe-future-to-be-tested-before-deciding-to eventually-include-it garrison script.

Yes, the peasants will be the source of the unit slots. But there are not many of them.

[j.a.luna]

About Marine units i wrote some opinions and unit roster for italians some time ago... i think that these units could be recruitable in italians ports and modify their stats and weapons as for example have crossbows and swords and little buckler, more on less as the picture below or Gasmuli unit from Nikkosaiz units, also i am in favor of remove peasant unit(the unit entirely), and make new levy/militia units with more unique unit roster for all factions.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...mp-Pisa)/page2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[umbracatervae777]

Yes, the peasants will be the source of the unit slots. But there are not many of them.

Maybe the existing trash-tier units, like Junior Militia or Acontistae could be included in garrison script instead, not just a special unit replacement for peasants

[Belovèse]

Maybe the existing trash-tier units, like Junior Militia or Acontistae could be included in garrison script instead, not just a special unit replacement for peasants

Well, if I understand correctly the garrison scripts, you need your garrison units to have a specific label in export_descr_units, and use that label to disband them after the siege is finished. And the disband command is applied faction-wide, that's why you need specific units. Else you would either offer free units to the AI, or disband left and right in other armies/settlements.

[kostic]

If the garrison script requires specific units, the 2 or 3 slots left by the peasants will not be enough to meet the demand for new units.
On the other hand, we could replace the peasants with a base militia unit for each faction.


This action requires coordination between us because we have to modify several files if we do not want to create new CTDs.
Here is a conversation with Gigantus which gives an idea of ​​the affected files:

Originally Posted by Gigantus
You are always welcome to contact me via PM if there is something that I might be able to help with.

Originally Posted by kostic
Thank you for your kindness.
I will therefore take this opportunity to ask you this question:
I intend to remove a unit, both in Campaigns and Custom Battles (this is the "peasants" unit).
Outside of files:
- EDU
- EDB
- battle_models.modeldb

what are the files to remember to avoid crashes in the game ?

Originally Posted by Gigantus
Other files with units:
descr_rebel_factions
descr_mercenaries
descr_strat
campaign_script

While not likely with your unit you should still check, especially the first one. modeldb is not required.

[Belovèse]

You're right, but I was thinking at start about taking only 3 slots (like spear, range, and mace or cavalry) and playing on the texture assignments to have different skins depending on region. Would it be possible?