UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[Lifthrasir]

Probably an old mistake still present in the mod

[j.a.luna]

Probably an old mistake still present in the mod

Mmm ok this seems logical...
Anyway another "issue" about units, i have noticed that mercenary unit of turcopoles can be hired in all Anatolia, Holy Land and all Persia, this is correct? Should they be recruited only in Holy lands?
About steppe kazacs unit(in the game appear with this name) i think that the correct name in english is Khazars.

[j.a.luna]

Sship team, current in the game exist some very late units and other unhistorical so i propose some of them for remove and have more free slots for new historical units.

-Late arquebusiers/late musketeers/ late pikemen--- they are playable only in very late game for several europeans factions(almost any player get the year 1500 or more)... Also exist other units as pikemen, arquebusiers and musketeers that are the same units, so not repeat units
-Aventuros(portuguese)--- these units are completely unhistoricals, the unique famous "medieval-renaissance" pikemen, apart of swiss pikemen, were the famous spanish tercio about finally 15 th century... So remove this unit and only Castille-Leon and Aragón factions can have Tercio pikemen in the game and increase their stats.
If you need more information about iberian factions i can give you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio

-And where are the Conquistadors units?i dont see in the units rosters of iberian factions...maybe is for we dont have America in the game no?

So if the sship team want more historical units should revise this so late units and sure that in the game exist several late units that can be removed


-About buildings also exist some of them that i have never seen and i dont know if they are useful or can be remove for make others or new faction wonders, also i dont know when is possible build them.
*Absolute monarchy
*Constitucional monarchy
Both with 3 upgrades and "placeholder images", i supose that are from vainilla stainless steel...

[Tripledot]

Tercios already handily beat regular Pikemen. If Aventuros and Late Pikemen were removed, only Scots Pikemen would be better than them among regularly recruitable pike units. Also, why shouldn't Portugal get Tercios? Tercios in general are also far out of the time frame most players even get to, as they're firmly in the Pike and Shot era. As for conquistador units- the Iberian facitons have Sword and Buckler Men, i.e. rodeleros (though those, like Tercios, are also way into the late game of the early 16th century which most people don't get to).

[j.a.luna]

Tercios already handily beat regular Pikemen. If Aventuros and Late Pikemen were removed, only Scots Pikemen would be better than them among regularly recruitable pike units. Also, why shouldn't Portugal get Tercios? Tercios in general are also far out of the time frame most players even get to, as they're firmly in the Pike and Shot era. As for conquistador units- the Iberian facitons have Sword and Buckler Men, i.e. rodeleros (though those, like Tercios, are also way into the late game of the early 16th century which most people don't get to).

"Tercio" was a Spanish military formation created in the late 15th century by the famous Castilian general named "the great captain" Don Gonzalo Fernandez de Córdoba who became famous in the Italian wars of the 15th century.
These formations were originally made up of pikemen, rodeleros (men with swords and bucklers) and crossbowmen (who were soon replaced by firearms such as arquebusiers and musketeers).
It was a revolution in modern warfare and it was shown that they could win over the old medieval styles as even other factions were bent (powerful and armed French knights).
The rest of the factions limited themselves to copying this style, that is why only the Spanish factions should have these special pikemen, and the rest of the European factions should have "normal pikemen".
It is similar to french knigths, all factions had knights but the best and famous were the french knights.
"Portuguese Aventuro" and late pikemen should be removed from the game entirely.
That is why differentiating these "Tercio pikemen" from the rest of the pikemen and making them exclusive for the Castilians and the Aragonese, both to make a difference as they really did, being the creators of this famous formation and being one of the most famous armies of pikemen and arquebusiers of all time. I recommend a movie called "Alatriste" although it is from the 17th century where it depicts the battle of Rocroi (1643). You can see the braves spanish pikemen against the powerful french cavalry.
So my proposals are:


-Also the Sword and buckler unit should be renamed as "Rodeleros", more historical and really called like that.


-Remove unhistoricals portuguese Aventuros and give a little more stats to Spanish Tercio Pikemen, also give the unit model of Aventuros unit to Tercio pikemen ( with armour as morrión helmet)


-Many very late units come from vainilla stainless steel and also is so difficult that the player can reach 16th century in the game so remove units from very late game as late pikemen, late harquebusiers and others(mounted arquebusier, reiters?). Standard Pikemen, arquebusiers and musketeers are OK to represent these units and formations with their correct armour upgrades for simulate very late units.


With this we will have new free slots to make new units and we will also eliminate unnecessary units and unhistoricals.

[kostic]

Your suggestions are relevant. All of this happens at the end of the game and which I personally have never reached, not even the fourteenth century ...

[Thorbjorn Jagelund]

Here are some observations, mostly ranting, about the desert units, which I think could be improved massively and help creating a unique aspect to the Almoravids, Italians, Fatimids and the Middle East.
I have NOT considered game balance while conjuring up these “improvements”, since I’m not a game/mod developer and my sole knowledge of the subject is that it is complicated and takes time to adjust. Thus I won’t mention game balance anymore. My purpose is to come up with suggestions mostly about historical authenticity, since I’m an avid enthusiast of the era. Let me know what you think.

1. Berber units –Lamtuna spearmen, Berber pikemen, Berber archers, Berber light cavalry, Berber javelinmen- have some issues. First of all, not all but some of them have combat bonus in deserts. This makes no sense, since they are all Berbers. All of them should have the bonus. This can also be extended to the African archers, spearmen, javelinmen and Beduin units too. I have failed to see a valid reason why they don’t all have the bonus.
2. Secondly, calling all of them Berbers is a bit lazy imo. Lamtuna is the only exception, but it shouldn’t. Lamtuna is a subgroup of the Sanhaja branch of the people called Berbers. There are more than enough to populate the unit rosters of the North African and Beduin local units. I’m not suggesting to add more Berber units, but simply changing their names would go a long way. At the current state of the game, we might as well call them “The sand people” or “Desert nomads”, because the term Berber isn’t all that different. For example, Zenatan archers were present, apparently, in the Muslim armies conquering the Iberian peninsula in the eight century, a couple of hundreds of years ago. I don’t see why they can’t replace the generic Berber archers. Numidians, which Hannibal broke Rome’s back with were also ancestors of the Berbers, so why not change the name of the Berber light cavalry to Numidian cavalry to make a throwback to the good old times? Zirids, Hammadids, Marinids, Tuaregs(their relation to Berbers is not entirely clear), Almohads(hint-hint ) were only some of the groups under the generic name Berber, so the names are basically begging to be implemented into the game(Numidian suggestion wasn’t entirely accurate, I know, since there are about a thousand years between the Almoravids and the last Numidian king, but at least they deserve a shoutout in the description of the unit on the bare minimum.). I have not made enough research about the Beduin and African units to rant about their origins and how they can be improved.
3. My only proposition to add another unit to the rosters of these local units would be the camel riders. I have discussed this issue with some people with ,I’m certain, more knowledge on the subject than I have. They make solid points about why they hesitate about camel riders being in the game. Berbers weren’t all that reliable on the battlefield and often changed sides to protect their own interests, so adding more Berber units is a heavily debated a shaky proposition at best. This is a good point, why would armies use unreliable local troops if they were notorious for disloyalty? However, from my experience as Moors in the Vanilla game, Tuareg Camel Spearmen were one of the most interesting units in the game because of their special scaring horses ability. They were light cavalry and couldn’t normally stand up to the European heavy cavalry and any type of archers because they prefer coloured bath robes instead o shields and chainmail, but a good charge may change the balance. I would even sacrifice the Berber Light Cavalry for a camel lancer or spear unit, because there are many javelin cavalry and not one melee camel rider. This replacement wouldn’t change the unit number and still add another unique unit to the somewhat bland roster of the Almoravids. As I’ve mentioned above, I have NOT done my research on Beduin units ,but I feel it could even be more fitting to the melee Beduin cavalry to have camels and not horses. I will update this point when I have sufficient information but it’s just an idea for now.
4. Also, to add Almoravids a bit more originality, their early generals bodyguard could be changed for a unique unit consisting of zealous, disciplined, crem-de-la-crem of the North African mounted tribal units. Lamtuni tribes could especially be a good candidate for inspiration, since they were loyal to the Almoravids from the start until the end. Making them heavy cavalry is ok, i guess, but instead of the generic skin, maybe something more towards the Black Guard could be cool. The stats could be tweaked to make it stand out a bit more, but I’m not suggesting a stat boost, since generals bodyguard is already an immensely powerful unit. What I suggest is a trade off between attack in expense of defense to reflect their radical war-like nature, not caring about their own safety. In my well-thought and completely balanced and imaginary mod, I would have given them camels, but I have no idea if this was historically accurate, doable, or gamebreaking. This is why people design mods and I write on forums.

Hope everyone is doing well.
Thor

[Lifthrasir]

^^

[j.a.luna]

Jurand talking about future versions(0.9.8) and improve units models and units rosters it would possible add another hidden resource for "andalusians" similar to current version for prussians amd armenians, i think that with these hidden resources we can make AOR units in the campaign map and is useful and inmersive.
This troops should be recruitable in these south spanish lands and surroundings ( Silves, Cordoba,Sevilla, Granada and Murcia) , and maybe make more troops of this style (a mix of christians and muslims called mozárabes and mudéjares) but we can called them simply as "Andalusians" because they lived mainly in Al-Andalus and south of Iberia (Andalucía), they should have a mix of muslim and christian clothing and armor and mainly good militias and light cavalry( description for kostic)
If you need information about moors/iberians armies composition i can help us.
Here the links about information:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...N-amp-CASTILLE

INTERESANT LINKS ABOUT ANDALUSIAN/MOORS ARMIES

https://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/la...os-musulmanes/

https://balagan.info/andalusian-order-of-battle

[Jurand of Cracow]

There's a hidden resource andalusia, and it's used to define the availability of the units.

[j.a.luna]

There's a hidden resource andalusia, and it's used to define the availability of the units.

Ok perfect, But would you like to improve it as I proposed? I think it would be more historical and immersive for the gameplay and similar to the Prussians who have 4 units ... especially because in those lands the use of crossbows was very common in Andalusian militiamen (infantry militia and ligh cavalry)
perhaps create a militia crossbowman with some attack in melee and strong defense?
I don't know, how do you want to plan it in the sship team for future versions.
Although you already know that you can count on my help in whatever you need!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes, when we'd get to improvements in the rosters in Spain, it will be taken into account.
The use of crossbows is a topic to explore in the books and to discuss.

[j.a.luna]

I have noticed some small details in some units, I suppose that this sship team will put more emphasis in the future.


- Byzantines Scutatoi (Spearmen) do not have the attribute of shieldwall, but their counterparts Scutatoi Swordmen do, I think both units should have it because they are practically the same units but with different weapons, in addition to being one of the most professional infantry that existed in the Middle Ages (heirs of the ancient Roman legions).


-Turcopole archers and Turkish pole horse archers can be recruited as mercenaries throughout the Middle East (Abbasid, Seljuk lands, etc). In his description he puts perfectly that they were very common in the Christian armies of the Holy Lands (the Crusader Levant, Jerusalem and surroundings). These auxiliaries were the mixed-race children of Greek and Turkish parents, and were at least nominally Christian, although some may have been Muslims in practice.
The Turkic-Poles were not necessarily Turkish or mestizo mercenaries, but many were likely recruited from among Christianized Seljuks, or from Syrian Orthodox Christians under Latin rule in the Holy Land.


The Turkoman cavalry could be put as mercenaries in Seljuk and Abbasid lands.

Also the current turcopole archers have 1 point of armour but in their models have full lamellar armour and mask helmet so is not correct for them...


On the other hand, the recruitable persian spearmen unit in the mercenary barracks of the Seljuks does not have a description picture.
I suppose that in terms of units we will have to do a restructuring in each faction.

[lequintal69]

I see many ppl talking about late game rosters. But in my opinion, what is really lacking is EARLY GAME roster, especially for western factions. This is where ppl spend most of their time playing. Mid game roster are cool though!

The worst in my opinion are france/aragon/portugal/saintempire/castille

I mean, look at that, so many redundant units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That really is a depressing roster to me (its about the same for other factions mentionned), and it's not that historical to justify it either tbh.


It would definitly add 1 or 2 units, probably Regionnal type units, and delete what is kinda redundant/useless/not that historical

In this example, I would just delete:
peseant infantry: not really historical, at least not how they are depicted. Not really usefull nor fun either
axe militia: I dont think it was ever used in the proportion in western europe in XXth century, and certainly not as a militia type unit. Usually, poor unarmed ppl would usually be given a spear, not an axe.
foot axe knights. While axes were certainly used by knights early on, it's kind of a reach to have a full axe unit imo
peasant crossbow: I think it is kinda redundant with militia crossbow. I dont really see the difference here tbh.

why not add: (some of those are in BellumCrucis mod)
some AOR for southern france: for example: knights of provence/toulouse (full mailed knights with large shields). Would be nice for both spain factions and france.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

some AOR breton archers . Nice for england (so you dont have to play 150 turns to have decent archers) and france

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Murals of Bayeux depicting Breton archers), late XI

- What about some Routiers (The great compagnies). They were a thing as early as mid XIIth century. They ravaged lands in france, spain, normandy and were used even by german emperors.
Either as AOR (navarre, southern france, western germania, normandie) or mercenary. I guess they would have good stats and be really expensive. Now thats more fun that weird peasants, aint it? :p

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

just some ideas

[removeduser_28376423423]

I see many ppl talking about late game rosters. But in my opinion, what is really lacking is EARLY GAME roster, especially for western factions. This is where ppl spend most of their time playing. Mid game roster are cool though!

peseant infantry: not really historical, at least not how they are depicted. Not really usefull nor fun either

Agree, has been done before also.

axe militia: I dont think it was ever used in the proportion in western europe in XXth century, and certainly not as a militia type unit. Usually, poor unarmed ppl would usually be given a spear, not an axe.

foot axe knights. While axes were certainly used by knights early on, it's kind of a reach to have a full axe unit imo

peasant crossbow: I think it is kinda redundant with militia crossbow. I dont really see the difference here tbh.


why not add: (some of those are in BellumCrucis mod)

(...)

I propose that axes should be secondary and the unit renamed "Feudal levy" (Poor morale), that alongside "Urban Militia" (better armour, swords for secondary, regular morale, free upkeep) and "Foot sergeants" (Spear; Swords/Axes mixed for secondary for charge), there you'd have 3 units and no more "light men at arms", "sergeant swordsmen", "spearmen" etc. the Feudal levy unit would look super cool with both weapons, it would free a unit slot, and would add a bit of tactics (For finishing off small groups and flank+charge, axes should have more charge bonus than spear, I'm thinking RR/RC 2.0 here).

These use Dane axes, I think they should be available for the Nordic factions by 1200 (Replacing Huskarlar). I'd also like to see them available for Scotland lowlands and Normans (Normandy, Sicily and London), Friesland, Flandes, Saxony and Hamburg, AOR. (Reading wikipedia I found the Dane axe is mentioned to have been spread throughout Europe after the Viking Age).

Yeah, I propose xbows to be available from Minor cities and above, and from castles a unit of "Sergeant crossbowmen", So you'd have your household men mustered in a xbow unit, these unit could be better at melee than the previous one, able to hold.

On Bellum Crucis, yes I think their models are open resource now, some arabic units are beautiful, I think SSHIP could import some.

[Nemesis2345]

@Kostic's KCC does makes foot knights use a combination of swords and axes btw , a great touch.

[j.a.luna]

Hi sship developers, seeing the new expansion of Age of empires 2 definitive edition, i saw a flemish unit called "flemish militia" that they used the weapon called "goedendag", here the information:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedendag

Is possible add as unique unit (AOR unit)for flemish lands in sship? ( Gand, Loeven...), This militia units were famous in s.XIII-XIV for fight against heavy french knights and win.
And we would have 2 unique flemish units, flemish pikemen and "goedendag militia", they were pretty effective against cavalry and a good quality militia( wealthy citizens)





happy holidays and good new year to all.

[kostic]

I am not yet familiar with the 14th century units available in SSHIP.
In my opinion, rather than making an exclusive unit of this type, incorporating this type of soldiers into the militias of the time seemed to me a better idea.

[AnthoniusII]

I would download Lord_Calidor's weapon pack if I was you. The weapons include textures but some ime need a resizing to smaller.

[j.a.luna]

I am not yet familiar with the 14th century units available in SSHIP.
In my opinion, rather than making an exclusive unit of this type, incorporating this type of soldiers into the militias of the time seemed to me a better idea.

Mmm ok, but you say for example make an AOR unit for flemish lands called "Flemish militia" with a mix of goedendag weapons with others as little spears and maces for example, noted that they should have the attribute "effective against cavalry", this flemish militia was a "medium quality" similar to merchant militia and rich citizens (burguesy) with gambeson,padded, and mail armour with some helmets but not much training.


https://www.military-history.org/art...l-weaponry.htm