UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[Jurand of Cracow]

rather regions. We could speak about "a Swedish faction" perhaps in 13th or 14th century, "a Flanders faction" late 14th or rather 15th century, and about "the Irish faction" in 20th century.

[Lifthrasir]

Will the SSIP have new factions like county of flander, sweden, wales, and ireland? Bc that would be awesome!

We have reached the factions' limit in SSHIP. We can't add a new faction without removing a current one.
Also, these factions had more a "local" impact rather than an international one for the period covered by the mod.
An AoR system can help a bit but that requiers quite some work.

[j.a.luna]

rather regions. We could speak about "a Swedish faction" perhaps in 13th or 14th century, "a Flanders faction" late 14th or rather 15th century, and about "the Irish faction" in 20th century.

Yes, i say about these other "cultures,kingdoms or minor factions" that were independents in some cases, for example other "culture or minor faction" that have a lot of units in sship are armenians

[Lifthrasir]

That's the point of an AoR system. Basically, we make a panel of units recruitable per area (meaning cultural region), recruitable by all or just some of the factions ( to be discussed) and depending of the period as well.
From my opinion, it's not realistic to have a muslim faction able to recruit camels in the.middle of Europe f.e.
It can also help to represent minor/regional factions not represented/playable in game.
Basically, from my view, there would be 4 main "categories" of units:
- recruitable by culture
- specific to the faction
- mercenaries
- AoR units
Note that this is just a general representation. Of course some units could be in 2.categories, depending on conditions if you get my point.
However, such system would requier quite some work and can't be implemented in 1 go (I think).

[j.a.luna]

That's the point of an AoR system. Basically, we make a panel of units recruitable per area (meaning cultural region), recruitable by all or just some of the factions ( to be discussed) and depending of the period as well.
From my opinion, it's not realistic to have a muslim faction able to recruit camels in the.middle of Europe f.e.
It can also help to represent minor/regional factions not represented/playable in game.
Basically, from my view, there would be 4 main "categories" of units:
- recruitable by culture
- specific to the faction
- mercenaries
- AoR units
Note that this is just a general representation. Of course some units could be in 2.categories, depending on conditions if you get my point.
However, such system would requier quite some work and can't be implemented in 1 go (I think).

Yes, totally agree. For example in the current sship for almoravid(muslims) faction:
- recruitable by culture...arab spearmen
- specific to the faction...black guard
- mercenaries...mercenary macemen
- AoR units...lusitanian javelinmen, andalusian spearmen...
For now you can improve this for the next version,at least with some little improvements, add more regional units for bulgarians, kurdishs, slavs and other europeans minor factions and limited the "general troops" recruitables per faction and in all parts of the map, and increase the variety and culture troops but with regional requirement
So is ilogical recruit also andalusian archers or black guard (black people from Africa) in France, but is possible recruit Andath Militia(muslim spearmen) in this place but also with regional units or europeans mercenaries for make the game more real and logical
And same for unique or specific units as for example Varangian Guard, only recruitable for byzantines and only in the city of Constantinople,but in slavs lands you can recruit mercenaries nordic-slavs with axes( vargagi troops) for example ( similar to varangians)
I think that this is inmersive for the gameplay, it is exotic and funny send your general by ship from Spain to England for recruit saxon huscarls or irish gallogaichs as mercenaries and then return with this exotic troops for kill moorish enemies hehe, similar case for hide cumans or steppes mercenaries for europeans factions for use as cavalry archers

[sullivanclan1]

There are not many cities in eastern europe that were in the original SS6.4. Why is that?

[Lifthrasir]

Settlements are based on the amount of inhabitants in the region at that period. That's why some areas get more settlements than others, because they were actually more populated.
The map limitations have also been taken into account. For instance, Flanders could get 1 or 2 more settlements based on the principle mentioned above. However, we woulf have ended with some settlements very close to each over. Not especially good for the gameplay.
The map might need some adjustments still, but not planned for now.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think sullivanclan1 meant the names of the settlements. Like: not Moscow, but Rostow. I think this was the whole point of the SSHIP (or SSMAP? SSNOP?) - to make them like it was in 12th century, not 15 or 17 or 20th.

[Lifthrasir]

To re-use your example, Moscow wasn't that important ( or at least.less important than the current.one in that area) when SSHIP starts. Same for Copenhagen in Denmark for another example. I can't access to my computer to give the link but check the old thread named SSHIP - Original Thread. The first few pages are about what settlement to choose for each main area of the map

[Elendil 03]

À propos, which is the settlement that currently represents Switzerland? In case it is still Zurich: Zurich had a population somewhat below 6000 at the time of the Great Plague. The largest two cities in the area in the 11th century (actually through the entire middle ages) were undoubtedly the episcopal sees of Basel (with the only bridge over the Upper Rhine in the 13th century and an important ferry place) and Geneva (capital of High Burgundy in the 9th century), both having a population of at least 9000 in the middle of the 14th century. Don't you think one of these would be more appropriate than Zurich? Alternatively, you could take into consideration replacing it with the similarly populated Lausanne which was also the center of a bishopric and a trading hub of significant importance.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Elendil03, there's been a discussion on Switzerland in this thread. Maybe you can comment on the conclusions there?

[Elendil 03]

Of course, my apologies for the off-topic post.

[j.a.luna]

Sship developers, is planned make a check or review of units models of the game?
For example you know that some currents units are vainilla units( magyar cavalry) or some captains of units have the old unit model( not sandy models), improve the russian unit roster...now exist the great minimod of kostic units and this improve a lot of the europeans units, we hope that you included it in the next version...
I know that Jurand work and traits play a important role in the game but also units models( and historicals) play an important role in the game and good inmersion for the gameplay
Thank you for your hard work

[Lifthrasir]

Some other points need to be redone before in order to not do the job several times. Even so, it won't be done in one go. That's quite some work. It is not planned so far to include kostic minimod.

[j.a.luna]

Some other points need to be redone before in order to not do the job several times. Even so, it won't be done in one go. That's quite some work. It is not planned so far to include kostic minimod.

Ook, roger Lifth, i dont know if implemented new unit models over the ancient or vainills units is difficult but i understand that this have a lot of work, maybe is not make new units models but yes implemented other units models of some mods that have free use or give them credits, for example broken crescent(muslims units) battle for the baltic( russians and steppes units and strat map models)
Also you say some time ago that you would like make new unit rosters for nordic and scottish people, it would be great!

[kostic]

It's actually a job and a lot of energy to implement or even just replace some units with others. You have to open several files at the same time on the desktop, as well as several conversion / re-conversion applications and have several hours ahead to check also that everything works ...
When Lifthrasir releases a new version, I know it will take time to adapt my current mod !

I think that Lifth's project focuses on other aspects than those concerning the credibility of costumes. No doubt he sees this step as the last to realize to finish the mod.

[Lifthrasir]

Actually, I'm trying to proceed by logic.
1. finish to fix animations
2. clean the EDU (remove unnecessary units)
3. re-work the EDU (review stats, implement new rosters)
4. implement new models
Note that steps 3 and 4 can be made more or less together

The reason why I want to proceed that way is to not do the job several times. For instance, if I modify the animations, it will affect how the units behave on the battlefield. It may requier stats adjustment.
The EDU has no much more free slots. Some units have to go because not accurate or double, etc... Once done, I hope that we'll get enough free slots to make each faction more specific.

Hope it clarifies things

[j.a.luna]

Yes totally cleared up, we hope this great work, i prefer wait some time more and have the new roster units and and new units models and for double units or not accurate you know that at the beginning of this thread exist one list about possibles units to remove, especially for repeat units( spearmen, spear militia, armoured spearmen, sergeant spearmen...) You can make spear militia with upgrades as militiamen, same for urban spear militia( for cities and italians) and make proffesional spearmen as spearmen sergeant with differents upgrades, remove peasants, and remove very late units as late musketers or late pikemans... Because your submod is centered in s. XII-XV
I dont know if is possible but same that europeans spear or axe militias have differents models for factions ( castilians are not similar to hungarians for example) is possible make the same for muslims factions? Andhat militias (muslim spearmen) differents units models for almohads, egyptians, selyuks...
Similar to unit strat map models... It would be wonderful see in the campaign map differents units strat map models for moors, selyuks, abbasids...not the old vainilla model..
You know that broken crescent have this and also other mods as battle for the baltics for russians and others...
This support a lot of the inmersion of the game
And of course i know that all not is possible in little time but in my opinion i prefer wait more time for the next release

[Tripledot]

Should Mangonels be removed? I feel like they're kind of pointless since they're useless in sieges and incredibly inaccurate. Not to mention, I once saw a settlement garrisoned entirely with Mangonels...

[Lifthrasir]

I'd keep them because they can be used as offensive weapons and defensive weapons during sieges as they were in reality and even if not accurate. I like to see walls falling with enemy units on them