UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[Lifthrasir]

An AoR system can be implemented beside the mercenary system. One doesn't prevent the other to work.

Just a quick remark about the link: not all members can understand Spanish

[kostic]

I am not Spanish nor English speaking. With translation software I'm not doing too badly. I urge all those who have the time to visit the site proposed by j.a.luna which is a mine of information! (https://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/)
With Google translation, I can almost understand everything and I can take advantage of the many illustrations that make the site very attractive.

[Navajo Joe]

On a visit to Copenhagen last week I went to the National Museum of Denmark and spent three hours in the Pre-History section, which involved a sizeable exhibition of Late Iron Age/ Viking Era. In the display was a Longbow, over six foot in length that was dugout from a bog. They found three ships in the Nydam Bog, there age is between 200-450 AD and the Longbow was retrieved from one of the vessels. On the explanation of the Bow, they stated that 'The Longbow was a weapon of choice' for warriors at this time !!!!

On Sunday I was watching an antiques TV Program, which was from Battle, there were lots of folk dressed up in period costume. One of those was a Longbowmen, he stated that William took Longbowmen to the Battle of Hastings and unleashed them on the Saxon Shieldwall, with a devastating impact.

Therefore I think you may need to consider a greater widespread use of these weapons, I don't think they are Mercenaries either, they would be part of mainstream troops available to factions.

[Lifthrasir]

Here is an interesting article about the longbow and its 'welsh' origin: https://www.bowyers.com/bowyery_longbowOrigins.php

[Navajo Joe]

Lifth,

Thanks very much for link above, it was very interesting reading and answered my points.

Tbh, in all the books I have read and programmes I have watched, I have never seen any claim, that William took Longbowmen to Hastings, I thought at the time that it was 'fake news', that is the BBC for you.

The link above does make reference to the Vikings using Longbows and in the Battle for the Baltic Sub Mod, that I was involved in developing and testing, the added Swedish Faction had Longbowmen. The Mod Leader Caesar Clivus would have never put them in, unless he had evidence of their existence. I cannot remember as to whether he added them to Norway or Denmark, cannot remember seeing them included, perhaps JOC may have played them. I would be happy to investigate to establish as to what forces the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes had in the 12th/13th centuries, if you wanted to include them in SSHIP, but if it is not something you might want to do, I would leave it.

[Lifthrasir]

I remember to have read somewhere something about war bows made with baleen of whales. It could be releated to Norses
I need to dig that out of my archives for confirmation and to see if it's related to the period covered by the mod. In any case, if we can get "evidences" of the use of longbow (or similar) by Norses, I'll gladly include that in SSHIP

[Used2BRoz]

Some form of longbow was probably in widespread use across Europe for neolithic times, mainly used for hunting.
This suggests central and northern areas : https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120629142412.htm

As a distance weapon it would be a useful addition to any war band's armoury, but perhaps not valorised as much as axe or spear used in hand-to-hand fighting.

Useful text discussing post-roman / pre-norman archery : https://regia.org/research/warfare/SaxonArchery.htm

[j.a.luna]

Hello sship team,some time ago i wrote some notes about units rosters in my shedule and now that i have a little of more free time i would like write in this forums, are only opinions and maybe tips for improve this amazing historical game so developers can follow or no. Currently i like so much the continue work and improvements than developers are doing ,with more continuity and solving errors daily, an example are the numerous patches of Jurand and littles improvements for composition of initial armies and other things but in my opinion i would like see more improvements for the factions units rosters( new units models, remove old vainilla models and unhistoricals, make new composition of factions armies...). Currently the unique minimod that now is continuing making new models is the KOSTIC minimod that improve all european units making more real and historicals, another "minimod" or "faction unit pack" is the amazing work of roman unit roster by Nikkosaiz but dont have any news about him or his amazing work, this is seriously a pity that were great units models for byzantines...
I am not a modder but i can do little contributions, for example analyzing the current unis rosters and give opinion about remove or remake units making more historical and with better inmersion for future releases, other thing is that i like read and see historical books,magazines and webpages about medieval era so i have knowledge about these medieval armies and composition.
So first, analyzing the SELYUK EMPIRE UNITS ROSTER:

Currently in the campaign selyuks are divided by two factions: Rum selyuks, the future ottomans and established in Anatolia figthing against Byzantines, and the Selyuk Empire, a mix of selyuks nomads, persian or iranian people and with a threat that comes from Asia, the Mongols.


-ROYAL GUARD CAVALRY AND ROYAL GUARD(FOOT)--- Currently both units are for late era so if these units is reserved for this era is OK, but selyuk empire should have a elite unit similar to "caliphal guard" from abbasids at the beginning of the game, recruitable only in high building as royal palace or something similar, could make a new unit called "Royal Ghulams". The current models are OK but need new unit cards.

-PERSIAN HORSEARCHERS--- They have vainilla models, i think that they should be at the beginning of the game, in the stables and maybe include in the mercenary barracks, persians lived in these areas and this "help" to differentiate more the factions. They lack a better description and also have too much armor, similar to the unit of "armored horsearchers" and "Iqta´dar" when this unit does not have their horses with armor (barded).

-ARMORED HORSEARCHERS--- They have vainilla models and furthemore does not correspond to the unit described, they are normal muslim horsearchers without visible armour but with barded horses vainilla models. Maybe they could have a better description and called "Persian Cataphract horsearchers"-

-IQTA´DAR---They have archers unit model from Broken Crescent mod and barded horses vainilla model. I think these units should not have barded horses(armour) and have a different model,they should less armour than armored horsearchers.

-KWAREZMIAN NOBLEMEN and KHWAREZMIYYA---Both units have similar models and stats. I propose to eliminate this unit for another free slot and only have "Mercenary Kwarezmian Cataphract" as mercenaries recruitable in mercenary barracks in persian lands, and for selyuk empire in stable level 3 after mongol invasion ( Kwarezmians were lost by mongols and their warriors were mercenaries).

-AMIR´S GUARDS--- This unit need a "image card" and maybe should have less armour due to dont have barded horses, his captain have "silver surfer unit"

-OTTOMAN INFANTRY---They have vainilla unit model , his description say that have well armoured and the model dont have visual good armour, Ok they are late units (are ottomans), but maybe selyuk empire should be more "persian" and Rum faction should have all ottomans units.

-TURKISH CROSSBOWMEN---They have Broken Crescent models, they are late units but should be early units for example recruitable in minor cities( similar to urban crossbowmen militia for europeans) For selyuks, rum, zenghids and abbasied. Muslims used crossbow in middle ages.

-HEAVY SPEARMEN---They have Broken Crescent model, should have better description and name, maybe called "Muslim/Oriental/Persian heavy spearmen", late units are OK if they are for this era.

-PERSIAN ARCHERS--- They have Broken Crescent model but i see something " weird" in their helmets... In their descrption appear that are "militia" but they are early professional troops. Should be recruitable in Mercenary Barracks and for selyuk empire in level 3 of archery.

-PERSIAN SPEARMEN--- They have the same description and model that persian archers, should be recruitable in mercenary barracks and for selyuk empire in level 3 of barracks.

-ARMORED SPEARMEN---They have Broken Crescent model, they are a mix of persian spearmen and heavy spearmen so i propose to remove it for a free slot more and give his model unit to persian spearmen 2º upgrade armour, it is a early unit so persian spearmen are OK.

-DAYLAMI LIGHT INFANTRY--- They have vainilla unit model and really are pretty ugly model... should change his description, they appear in mercenary barracks so OK but they could be changed by "Andhat Sword Militia" being recruitable for all muslims factions, in general muslims unit rosters lacks of swords units.

-MERCENARY SARRACENS--- They have vainilla units and i think that they are late units, good armour and also should be recruitable in mercenary barracks, they could called "Mercenary Muslims Warriors"

-HASHASHIN MERCENARIES--- They have vainilla unit model, in my opinion should be recruitable only in the region of Alamut(their principal settlement or enclave) in mercenary barrack as special unit for all factions, also in the Assasin Guild for muslims factions.



This is a summary about this faction and another day I will continue with other factions, giving opinions on their models, stats, history and level of recruitment. I do not know if sship team are planning to improve this aspect of the game but the truth seems to me very important along with the other areas of the game. I hope to help in what I can for this wonderful mod.

[Lifthrasir]

The sultanate of Rum didn't become the Ottoman emirat (founded by Osman after his victory against the ERE in 1302). To be short, following the Mongol conquest and their defeat against Baybars, the sultanat of Rum ended officially in 1328 after being conquered by the Karamanids, themselves lasting until 1487 when they were "integrated" to the Ottoman empire.

[j.a.luna]

The sultanate of Rum didn't become the Ottoman emirat (founded by Osman after his victory against the ERE in 1302). To be short, following the Mongol conquest and their defeat against Baybars, the sultanat of Rum ended officially in 1328 after being conquered by the Karamanids, themselves lasting until 1487 when they were "integrated" to the Ottoman empire.

Yes,but i want to said that in the mod and the game Rum selyuks faction(Anatolia) "is transformed" into ottoman faction because after some events and about the year 1300 they begin to have ottomans units( ottoman infantry, janissaries...) For simulate this. Selyuk empire( Irak and Iran) is more "persian style" with persian and kwarezmian units, so for now exist a little difference into this two selyuk faction but of course could improve still more with little changes in their unit rosters and availability of differents units.

[Lifthrasir]

Actually, the word "Ottoman" should be removed from SSHIP, at least for the early era.

[kostic]

So first, analyzing the SELYUK EMPIRE UNITS ROSTER:

Currently in the campaign selyuks are divided by two factions: Rum selyuks, the future ottomans and established in Anatolia figthing against Byzantines, and the Selyuk Empire, a mix of selyuks nomads, persian or iranian people and with a threat that comes from Asia, the Mongols.


-ROYAL GUARD CAVALRY AND ROYAL GUARD(FOOT)--- Currently both units are for late era so if these units is reserved for this era is OK, but selyuk empire should have a elite unit similar to "caliphal guard" from abbasids at the beginning of the game, recruitable only in high building as royal palace or something similar, could make a new unit called "Royal Ghulams". The current models are OK but need new unit cards.

-PERSIAN HORSEARCHERS--- They have vainilla models, i think that they should be at the beginning of the game, in the stables and maybe include in the mercenary barracks, persians lived in these areas and this "help" to differentiate more the factions. They lack a better description and also have too much armor, similar to the unit of "armored horsearchers" and "Iqta´dar" when this unit does not have their horses with armor (barded).

-ARMORED HORSEARCHERS--- They have vainilla models and furthemore does not correspond to the unit described, they are normal muslim horsearchers without visible armour but with barded horses vainilla models. Maybe they could have a better description and called "Persian Cataphract horsearchers"-

-IQTA´DAR---They have archers unit model from Broken Crescent mod and barded horses vainilla model. I think these units should not have barded horses(armour) and have a different model,they should less armour than armored horsearchers.

-KWAREZMIAN NOBLEMEN and KHWAREZMIYYA---Both units have similar models and stats. I propose to eliminate this unit for another free slot and only have "Mercenary Kwarezmian Cataphract" as mercenaries recruitable in mercenary barracks in persian lands, and for selyuk empire in stable level 3 after mongol invasion ( Kwarezmians were lost by mongols and their warriors were mercenaries).

-AMIR´S GUARDS--- This unit need a "image card" and maybe should have less armour due to dont have barded horses, his captain have "silver surfer unit"

-OTTOMAN INFANTRY---They have vainilla unit model , his description say that have well armoured and the model dont have visual good armour, Ok they are late units (are ottomans), but maybe selyuk empire should be more "persian" and Rum faction should have all ottomans units.

-TURKISH CROSSBOWMEN---They have Broken Crescent models, they are late units but should be early units for example recruitable in minor cities( similar to urban crossbowmen militia for europeans) For selyuks, rum, zenghids and abbasied. Muslims used crossbow in middle ages.

-HEAVY SPEARMEN---They have Broken Crescent model, should have better description and name, maybe called "Muslim/Oriental/Persian heavy spearmen", late units are OK if they are for this era.

-PERSIAN ARCHERS--- They have Broken Crescent model but i see something " weird" in their helmets... In their descrption appear that are "militia" but they are early professional troops. Should be recruitable in Mercenary Barracks and for selyuk empire in level 3 of archery.

-PERSIAN SPEARMEN--- They have the same description and model that persian archers, should be recruitable in mercenary barracks and for selyuk empire in level 3 of barracks.

-ARMORED SPEARMEN---They have Broken Crescent model, they are a mix of persian spearmen and heavy spearmen so i propose to remove it for a free slot more and give his model unit to persian spearmen 2º upgrade armour, it is a early unit so persian spearmen are OK.

-DAYLAMI LIGHT INFANTRY--- They have vainilla unit model and really are pretty ugly model... should change his description, they appear in mercenary barracks so OK but they could be changed by "Andhat Sword Militia" being recruitable for all muslims factions, in general muslims unit rosters lacks of swords units.

-MERCENARY SARRACENS--- They have vainilla units and i think that they are late units, good armour and also should be recruitable in mercenary barracks, they could called "Mercenary Muslims Warriors"

-HASHASHIN MERCENARIES--- They have vainilla unit model, in my opinion should be recruitable only in the region of Alamut(their principal settlement or enclave) in mercenary barrack as special unit for all factions, also in the Assasin Guild for muslims factions.



This is a summary about this faction and another day I will continue with other factions, giving opinions on their models, stats, history and level of recruitment. I do not know if sship team are planning to improve this aspect of the game but the truth seems to me very important along with the other areas of the game. I hope to help in what I can for this wonderful mod.

Bravo and thank you for your advice which will probably inspire my future work.
Indeed, many units outside Western Europe do not have the satisfactory historical aspect for the period of the 12th century.
My next version will only touch on minor aspects outside the West, but I feel more and more the need to widen the scope of my unit modifications.


For example, many oriental units, even Russian, have horses in "jaseran" style armor ... even if this type of horse protection existed at the time, it has always been extremely rare and expensive. I think that a complete unit with this type of armor is not transferable. Or it should be reserved for the late part of the game, in balance with the full armor of the West. Indeed, the type "jaseran" or "djezireh" has been preferred over the centuries and its greater presence in the 15th and 16th centuries would seem more logical to me. This is why I propose to replace almost all of them with protections of meshes and carapacons various in my sub-mod for the first part of the game.
What do you think ?

[j.a.luna]

Bravo and thank you for your advice which will probably inspire my future work.
Indeed, many units outside Western Europe do not have the satisfactory historical aspect for the period of the 12th century.
My next version will only touch on minor aspects outside the West, but I feel more and more the need to widen the scope of my unit modifications.


For example, many oriental units, even Russian, have horses in "jaseran" style armor ... even if this type of horse protection existed at the time, it has always been extremely rare and expensive. I think that a complete unit with this type of armor is not transferable. Or it should be reserved for the late part of the game, in balance with the full armor of the West. Indeed, the type "jaseran" or "djezireh" has been preferred over the centuries and its greater presence in the 15th and 16th centuries would seem more logical to me. This is why I propose to replace almost all of them with protections of meshes and carapacons various in my sub-mod for the first part of the game.
What do you think ?

Yes i agree about you, a good reference for muslims are the models of Broken Crescent and the modder karaislam and for russians,cumans and mongols are the rusichi models also the webpage "arrecaballo.com" i agree about much armour in some units and they should be extremely rare or for very elite units and high nobles, also middle east had some type of kathapractos( furthemore persians and kwharezmians)
Another thing that i would like see improve are the units strat map models, now vainilla are ugly and unhistoricals( full plate armour generals, same models for russians agents than western europe, no steppe models, same muslims models for all)
But i think that sship developers should say their opinions about these units rosters and if they planed in a short future replace them, maybe you could support with your units models, they are so historically correct in my opinion

[j.a.luna]

Some suggestions about units models that now sship team is improving this important part of the game:
Current in the game some units have the same unit model for various different types of units, for example:
-hungarian nobles share the unit model with aldari druzhina(alani) and mounted yasi
-balkans archers with vlach archers
-armenian azap archers with bulgarian brigands
-steppe kazaks with cuman horse militia
-pechenegs with mongol horse archer
-the same with andath militia that is the same model for all muslim factions( maybe they should be for a persian faction as selyuk empire and abbasied)
And also with other units cases, is possible give them different types of units models?
For example if the team planned replace the roman unit roster and other can "recycle" ancient models of other units rosters and put them in these units if is possible, it is for save work and dont make new units if it is not necessary.
But of course exist another option that is add historical units of some mods that have friendly politics for implement their units as Broken Crescent, Rusichi mod, Tsardom mod and others if is possible.



Edit: Talking about another issue, in the game what factions and when is possible recruit the weird unit of NAFFATUN? They are the countepart of byzantine siphonatores(greek fire) and they could be interesant fighting in early game against them.
Historically, they were part of the abbasid forces, mentioned in the 9th and 12th century according to wiki.

https://es.qwe.wiki/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1157)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

So they should probably be a abbasid only unit and maybe fatimid, also pretty rare and not widely available in my opinion, maybe they could hire in Baghdad and other large cities with alchemist building or in the sultan palace as excepcional unit ( similar to byzantine siphonatores), it would give more inmersion for play with abbasied

[kostic]

If several units share the same model, the M2TW engine only manages a limited number of units. Cannot add to EDU.
For the Naffatuns, it seems to me that they can be chosen in custom battles. I don't know if they can be recruited in the campaign ...

[j.a.luna]

If several units share the same model, the M2TW engine only manages a limited number of units. Cannot add to EDU.
For the Naffatuns, it seems to me that they can be chosen in custom battles. I don't know if they can be recruited in the campaign ...

I dont know of this is the reason why have various units with the same model...
About naffatuns should be recruitable in the campaign, and in early era due to explanation above( 9 th-12th century) for abbasieds and similar situation of byzantine siphonatores ( very weird and excepcional unit)

[j.a.luna]

SSHIP developers, a question about UNITS ROSTERS(i think that all issues about units could be posted in this old thread).

This time my question is about Normans in the game... Current in the game Norman knights exist for the english and sicilians, but only norman foot knights are available for sicilians, the rest(miles,miles pedites and norman knights) are available for both factions. And also norman sergeants( spearmen) are available only for english faction...
All of this is correct in the game and historical? Because i think this Norman foot knights also coud be available for England, they had Normandy,the cradle of norman troops.
Also what do you think about add a mercenary unit available in the Italian Peninsula about year 1190 called Mercenary Norman Knights? they were famous as mercenaries in middle ages, especially in 11th and 12th centuries hired by various Italian city-states.

[kostic]

I did not know that the Norman knights were not available for English.
I know they are found in custom battles. I also know that I redid their appearance with the same model as for the Norman knights of Sicily. Only the textures change.

[j.a.luna]

I did not know that the Norman knights were not available for English.
I know they are found in custom battles. I also know that I redid their appearance with the same model as for the Norman knights of Sicily. Only the textures change.

Yes, England only have Norman knights( cavalry) but sicilians have Foot norman knights(foot knights)and norman knights and is very weird because both factions had norman troops,maybe is a possible bug in the unit roster..., same case with norman sergeants not available for sicilians.

[kostic]

Maybe it's a choice on the part of modders ... Maybe it's relevant from a historical point of view ... I don't know.