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Thread: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

  1. #681
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    As Mamiaz wrote, units made up of troops armed with the same weapon are not very credible in the Middle Ages.
    With some units, we can mix some weapons to give a prettier appearance (too bad for inappropriate animations). With two-handed axes, it's much more difficult ...
    It's one of the limits of this game to give a realistic reconstruction.
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  2. #682

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    The problem is animations.

    For example, if you give some axes to swordsmen unit, they will use sword animations with said axes, and vice versa.

    So you just have to have one weapon troops, unless someone makes an unit with a secondary weapon switch that works, like pikemen were supposed to be in M2 vanilla.

  3. #683

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    The problem is animations.

    For example, if you give some axes to swordsmen unit, they will use sword animations with said axes, and vice versa.

    So you just have to have one weapon troops, unless someone makes an unit with a secondary weapon switch that works, like pikemen were supposed to be in M2 vanilla.
    It works fairly well for bowmen...hmm. The problem with pikemen is/was, IIRC, the fact that enemies closing would auto-trigger them dropping pikes. We could set it up so that the only trigger for, say scoutatoi (the first unit that should have both spear and sword I can think of) attacking with their swords would be holding ALT on an attack order? I think there was also a similar thing for cataphracts back in Rome I as well.
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  4. #684
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Regarding the different weapons, it may work only with the same type of weapon wielded ( like only one handed or two handed), if you look at the Peasant Infantry, they actually wield different tools, as long as they are spears, i guess you could edit some troops to weild both axes and swords as long as they corespond with the animation.

  5. #685
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    The problem is animations.

    For example, if you give some axes to swordsmen unit, they will use sword animations with said axes, and vice versa.

    So you just have to have one weapon troops, unless someone makes an unit with a secondary weapon switch that works, like pikemen were supposed to be in M2 vanilla.
    You're right. It's why I've dropped the idea for the Spear Militia to have axes as the secondary weapon. Do you recall if a guard mode wouldn't change this effect?

  6. #686

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    No idea.

    I believe some dude managed to fix some of that stuff, but he went off the site and his work went with him sadly.

    Can't remember the name, it was the same genius that managed to get crossbowmen to come to the battlefield locked and loaded, launching a volley the moment they are in range of someone instead of loading their crossbows when enemy gets in range, he also made the javelin units get in default javelin throw stance(like they are in shieldwall ability) so they threw their javelins right away instead of that stupidly slow animation happening while the enemy closes in.

    Sadly, none of it was recovered to my knowledge ;-;

  7. #687
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    This not actually true. It depends what kind of animation are set for the primary and secondary weapon in the modeldb file.
    For instance, you can give a spear as a primary weapon and a sword as a secondary one. This is possible. The problem is that the engine is unable to decide to use the spear for fight at a certain distance and to use the sword in close fight. Instead, even if the player chooses to switch to the sword when the unit is in melee, soon or later, the engine will switch back to the primary weapon which is the spear. So, to make it work fine, you will need a micro-management of each unit of that type, keeping an eye on the weapon they use. Not really the best option

    For info, axe and mace use the same animation (unless one of them have been customized). Sword uses another one. Or is it the other way around
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  8. #688
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    The problem is that the engine is unable to decide to use the spear for fight at a certain distance and to use the sword in close fight. Instead, even if the player chooses to switch to the sword when the unit is in melee, soon or later, the engine will switch back to the primary weapon which is the spear. So, to make it work fine, you will need a micro-management of each unit of that type, keeping an eye on the weapon they use.
    Isn't the problem also the very switch - in the time they're switching, they don't fight, thus a constant switch makes it a worse option than having an inferior weapon?

  9. #689
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I think it depends on the weapons involved. That's probably more "true" for archers, javelinmen and crossbowmen when they switch to their melee weapon and the other way around. For infantry, I'm not so sure. I need to check when time permitting.

    Edit: it would be interesting to see how it works for a mix between javelin and spear animation for respectively primary and secondary weapons The idea behind this is why would you waste your last javelin to a knife or a daguer when you can use your javelin as a spear? Doesn't make sens to me, especially considering the lower units with no training
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 19, 2018 at 03:01 AM.
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  10. #690
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    No idea.

    I believe some dude managed to fix some of that stuff, but he went off the site and his work went with him sadly.

    Can't remember the name, it was the same genius that managed to get crossbowmen to come to the battlefield locked and loaded, launching a volley the moment they are in range of someone instead of loading their crossbows when enemy gets in range, he also made the javelin units get in default javelin throw stance(like they are in shieldwall ability) so they threw their javelins right away instead of that stupidly slow animation happening while the enemy closes in.

    Sadly, none of it was recovered to my knowledge ;-;
    Damn, i would have loved to see his work, i always wondered why the crossbowmen werent loaded so they could fire a volley before the enemy closes in (instad of taking 5 years to reload) , is there any chance of finding any of his work? It would be magnificent for gameplay in this game....it is a must

  11. #691

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Hello sship team and Lifthrasir, i would like talk about some units and some units rosters, for example the mongols, i know that only they are playable in the high campaign and i dont know if it is planned improve it in the future version with new strat map models, historicals generals and positions in the map, new units...but a question, is possible add an arch as secondary weapon to keshik unit( mongol bodyguard) they were the elite of the mongol army and sure that they could fight with maces and also with arch, similar to the unit of georgian bodyguard "royal monaspa"... And if is possible make the same for cuman bodyguard "khagan bodyguard",i think that steppe factions should this bodyguard units with arch as secondary weapons and also is historiacal and more inmmersive for the game... Similar that norwegians and danish faction have foot bodyguards units.
    Maybe is possible make the same for selyuks, pretty typical to use the arch and sure that for their elite units as bodyguards
    And also i would like add if is possible improve the units rosters for muslims factions, more variety as more swords units, unique units as ghazis, maybe add more mercenary barracks in middle east and in the map general, add mercenary asiatic units for mongols and middle east near to Merv and steppes...
    And remember that if i can help with little things of modding i can doing, also remember that leoneses should be called "castilians" historically correct in this ages...
    Sure that version 1.0 have many things and it will be a great version
    Thanks Lifthrasir for continue improve this historical mod
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  12. #692
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I've started to look through the EDU for future changes. for now, I'm just sharing 'heated' comments. At least I know where to find my thoughts
    Comments are welcome of course.

    About the naval units, it doesn't make sens to me to get the Cumans able to recruit Holk and Ladya. There are from steppes and aren't seamen. I'm in favor to remove these ships from their roster. From there, we have 2 options:
    1. No ships like for the Mongols. Not sure how it will influence the gameplay
    2. Make a new ship named Ushkuys, recruitable by Cumans and Mongols. However, note that that ship was made for rivers. If implemented, its moves will have to be limited -I guess.

    Pirate ships: no point to use a slot in the EDU for a ship only recruitable by rebels. To be removed from my opinion. Rebels can be added to other naval units.

    Albanian Cavalry: basically, these are Stradiots (or Stradioti if you prefer). Historically, they are a late era unit (2nd half of the 15th century if I'm right). I'm in favor to remove the Albanian Cavalry and to extend the factions able to recruit Stradiots. Currently, only Venice is able to recruit Stradiots. Seems that Serbia and Greeks used them as well. I've found also Naple, Spain and France. So possibly add Sicily. For France and Spain, no record found before the 16th century.

    Hussars: recruitable by Poland, Hungary and Serbia. There's also the Serbian Hussars recruitable by Serbia and Rebels. The only difference between both units is their primary armour (leather for Hussars and metal for Serbian Hussars). From my opinion, Serbian Hussars can be removed. Hussars can get their primary armour set as metal and Rebels can be added for their recruitment.
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  13. #693

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I have always been in favor of factions being more unique and not repeating similar units, so about make a new sship for sttepe factions as mongols and cumans is good but yes with some limitations and worse quality and cheaper than the rest of factions with marine tradition, maybe also you can put for them mercenary ships with high cost
    For the rest of units that you tell us i agree about remove similar units, more free slots for make new units and more "uniques"
    About this you can make units for some mini cultures as kurdishs, bulgarians,anatolians and others, similar as armenians or berbers units in the game.
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  14. #694
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    The strat map models for Georgian characters are based on the muslim models. Looks a bit weird to me considering the origins of their realm (Greek or Byzantium if you prefer). Wouldn't be better to change these models to the Greek one?
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  15. #695

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    The strat map models for Georgian characters are based on the muslim models. Looks a bit weird to me considering the origins of their realm (Greek or Byzantium if you prefer). Wouldn't be better to change these models to the Greek one?
    Of course, georgians are more greeks or romans than muslims...is similar culture so yes is a good choice put greek strat map models for them but with little differences.
    ( more unique faction)
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  16. #696
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Hussars: recruitable by Poland, Hungary and Serbia. There's also the Serbian Hussars recruitable by Serbia and Rebels. The only difference between both units is their primary armour (leather for Hussars and metal for Serbian Hussars). From my opinion, Serbian Hussars can be removed. Hussars can get their primary armour set as metal and Rebels can be added for their recruitment.
    In the period of this mod Hussars are by definition light cavalry. Serbian hussars never ever had metal armour.

    Armoured hussars appeared in the XVIth century in Polish armies. Before that all the hussars were light cavalry modeled on the turkish light cavalry. So in the SSHIP time period all hussars should be lightly armoured and should not have any metal armour.

  17. #697
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Thanks for the info
    So we'll stick to leather armour for all then
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  18. #698

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Will the SSIP have new factions like county of flander, sweden, wales, and ireland? Bc that would be awesome!

  19. #699
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by sullivanclan1 View Post
    Will the SSIP have new factions like county of flander, sweden, wales, and ireland? Bc that would be awesome!
    You may play Flanders in the Dawn of Conquest, Sweden in Battle for the Baltics (I've played it in the Baltic campaign - use the vsivak fix for the king), and Ireland in DLV-BB (iirc). I don't think they'd ever come to SSHIP.

  20. #700

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by sullivanclan1 View Post
    Will the SSIP have new factions like county of flander, sweden, wales, and ireland? Bc that would be awesome!
    Now, these factions are not playable but in sship you can "find" independent sovereigns or independents kingdoms that simulate this with regional units, for example in the region of Flanders( city of Gand) you can fin flemish pikemen, in Wales welsh longbowmen, in bulgarian lands bulgar archers, in sweden lands some nordics units and also this "rebels" are called swedish rebels
    I think that for inmersion in the game and for historically correct,should improve this aspect, more regional units dor simulate this little countries or factions, and also call this regions or cities for his true name and faction( flemish city, irish city, bulgar kingdom...)
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