Modding possibilties

[HigoChumbo]

As far as it's easy enough to add new models and textures to the game and maybe tweak a few gameplay mechanics (I personally like the game a bit more hardcore than vanilla usually is) I'll be happy.

That is, unless the game is so damn well designed that no need is required.

[Gryffon]

As far as it's easy enough to add new models and textures to the game and maybe tweak a few gameplay mechanics (I personally like the game a bit more hardcore than vanilla usually is) I'll be happy.

That is, unless the game is so damn well designed that no need is required.

This, my little dream is that we will still be able to edit models/textures and add units on the campaign map.
If we can, I'll try to learn enough moding to import romans barbarians and spartans from Rome 2 and danes sassanids and huns from attila (maybe samurais from shogun 2) and make my own little fantasy Total war arena (with decent graphics and in a real Total war ! :p)
And maybe units from the LOTR attila mod currently in development if their previews are anything like the end product

Triari vs Orcs ? Berserkers vs Kislev ? Warhammer dwarves vs LOTR dwarves ?

[Vardeus]

Warhammer dwarves vs LOTR dwarves ?

It ends badly for the middle earth ones.

[scoicarius]

I loved Shadow of the old Horned Rat and Dark Omen and I'd love to see something similar in Warhammer Total War. That is, a kind of mercenary campaign(s). If the modding tools allowed it (and if If I were to get into modding) that's what I'd make.

[Jay the Byzantine]

The Public order of my chances buying TWH was 30. The small faction list was the equivalent of a cold winter. -5 PO/turn. I got cranky and the cold helped me to rebel against my ruler because logic. Now this, this is farm level right here. It just got personal. CA just created the highest tier farm and as true as my half shaved freaky as hell purple skrillex haircut is hip, I declare myself offended and outraged = hipstered populace: -40 PO/turn! AKA I ain't gettin this.

[Collateral_dmg]

I doubt the game will be so harcoded that we will not be able to change textures and models.

That is, unless the game is so damn well designed that no need is required.

What do you mean? The need to fix the game or the need to mod the game? They are two different things. People are complaining because of the mod tools and that stuff, which would be the means to change textures, models and such things, not really fixing, although the mod tools are mostly used for that in the recent TW games, and that is about all you can do with them anyway, which is a shame really.

I also wouldn't mind it if it was all fine, but still, I would like to be able to change things at least a bit, not just fix things. But maybe not releasing mod tools is actually even better when you think about it. Just remember medieval 2. The current mod tools really limit our capabilities I would say, so maybe not releasing anything officialy will be a good thing, as people will find different ways of changing stuff, and might be able to do things we simply can't do now with official mod tools.

[HigoChumbo]

Was talking about the need to mod the game. If a product is so well designed that it's completelly cohesive, I don't really feel the need for mods, in fact, mods would probably break that cohesion.

Yes there is usually a couple of minimal flavour tweaks that everyone always wants to make (for instance, I prefer realistic textures over Total War's usual flashy stuff), but nothing major. I remember going back to vanilla Shogun 2 after I had tried a few mods, for instance. Just so you get my point, the ideal scenario would be that a development studio had the best possible trained designers, so that their decissions were the best possible choices, and therefore an amateur fan like me would not be able to find a thing to improve over their job. If people do improve over the developer's work, that means the developer work is ultimatelly not that great.

Even if we took into account everyone's personal taste (like my love for realistic textures, or someone who might want battles to last longer), if the game was designed cohesively, and one of those design decissions was to make the game colourful, then changing the textures to be realistic should actually be detrimental for the game as a whole, since every design decission the developers made should have a particular meaning to create their very specific vision. And if even then there was room for improvement, the devopment team should be able to do it faster and much better than any amateur could ever hope to.


The problem is that that's often not the case.

[Collateral_dmg]

I abolutely agree that the game should be done like that, in that sense. But we are talking about moding the game, not just changing the textures (or sandals lol) so that they are more realistic for us. What I mean by moding is changing the entire game, like in medieval 2 or rome, where you could create entirely new universes. People don't have to play the mods they don't like, so I don't think that mods would break anything about the game. It's just like expansioins and DLCs the devs release, if you don't like them don't play them.

[HigoChumbo]

If you are speaking of total conversions, my stance is pretty similar, if there was a public for a specific game, developers should be able to make it not only much faster but also better than a few amateurs with no resources. This is getting more and more true the more complex games become. Even when modders can still to amazing stuff, the time and effort required to achieve good results is usually off-putting, so they are really getting to a point in which keeping up with big company releases is quite hard for them.

In any case, note that I'm not at all arguing against the game being moddable, I think they should just let people do whatever they want, and they should have no worries about it whatsoever because, in theory, there be no way that amateurs could compete with a big studio like CA. For instance, there are people who are still modding Medieval 1, so if they want to do so, why not allow them?


And yeah, I wasn't saying that they would "break" the game, more like that given a perfectly designed, cohesive game, any change done to it would most likely end up with an overall worse product (but then again, there might be someone who likes that "worse" product better, so why not let him do what he wants). Just so you get my point, it would be like getting a Bethoveen sonata and having some amateur dj add a reggaeton drums rythim to it. Yes, someone might love it, but (art subjetivity arguments aside) I think we can all agree that the final result would be just worse.

[ByzantinePowerGame]

No modding, no buy!

Seconded, without mods I will wait until the game is 2-3 years old and is selling on steam for $10 dollars before I even consider buying it, and that is assuming it is not released as a broken mess with a half-dozen patches that coming in the first 12 months that only fix 75% of the problems.

[scoicarius]

Just so you get my point, it would be like getting a Bethoveen sonata and having some amateur dj add a reggaeton drums rythim to it. Yes, someone might love it, but (art subjetivity arguments aside) I think we can all agree that the final result would be just worse.

To give a counterexample, what if, given some robust modding tools, someone decided to add night-time bonuses to certain units, and even night-time-specific mechanics (more concealment options, dark magic spells that have more uses at night, etc). It would be interesting for instance if vampires were stronger at night but weaker during the day, so if they were to fight on their terms (not always possible), they’d always fight during night-time. Our wannabe-designer would have to make quite a few adjustments (e.g. night-time battles more readily available, something which I'd love to see by the way). Or what if someone created a mercenary campaign (which would require the possibility to create more scripted battle scenarios, with story-telling elements, something which I'd also like to see) like the ones I previously suggested. Or what if you thus got the possibility to implement many of your wonderful ideas? Would this be like adding reggaeton drums rhythm to a Beethoven sonata? Would the final result be just worse? I don't think so. My point is, the metaphor you used is quite limiting. Good design in this case is design that perfectly integrates within the original structure. Even if most mods would end up being crap (as is usually the case), the possibility of finding genuine treasures among them is well worth it as far as I'm concerned.

[HigoChumbo]

My point about all that is that if the game would benefit from those night mechanics, a good developer should have considered adding them, and if they didn't, either they are limited in some way (resources, time, talent), or they had actual weighted reasons not to include them, and thefore the later inclussion of those features by modders would probably be detrimental for the game for the very same reasons. Of course, this considering a really talented and resourceful developer and a playerbase not flooded with casuals.

We are speaking about professional, trained designers who are paid to gather into a room and just brainstorm, I'm pretty sure that after 15 years of doing that they've pretty much already thought of everything fans have asked for (and if not, I'm sure they are aware of what fans suggest anyways). The most compelling reason I can see for modding is that nowdays game development is really focused on the majoritary casual audiences, and therefore a lot of features and mechanics that some more hardcore niches would love are rejected on the drawing board, but good modders could actually implement them. If you notice, in the end what most mods add is realistic textures and names, slower, harder battles, a more challenging experience overall and so on.

[scoicarius]

My point about all that is that if the game would benefit from those night mechanics, a good developer should have considered adding them, and if they didn't, either they are limited in some way (resources, time, talent), or they had actual weighted reasons not to include them, and thefore the later inclussion of those features by modders would probably be detrimental for the game for the very same reasons. Of course, this considering a really talented and resourceful developer and a playerbase not flooded with casuals.

We are speaking about professional, trained designers who are paid to gather into a room and just brainstorm, I'm pretty sure that after 15 years of doing that they've pretty much already thought of everything fans have asked for (and if not, I'm sure they are aware of what fans suggest anyways). The most compelling reason I can see for modding is that nowdays game development is really focused on the majoritary casual audiences, and therefore a lot of features and mechanics that some more hardcore niches would love are rejected on the drawing board, but good modders could actually implement them. If you notice, in the end what most mods add is realistic textures and names, slower, harder battles, a more challenging experience overall and so on.

I like to distinguish between "essential features" and "extraneous features". Essential features are those that make up the structure of the game. In our case they consist of the elements of the Total War formula, the elements of the Warhammer TT formula, and the adaptation of the latter to the former. Extraneous features on the other hand are features that add new gameplay possibilities (function) and/or improve the game aesthetically (flavor), creating new experiences.

For instance night-time mechanics are clearly not an essential feature, even if flavorful and could add interesting gameplay possibilities. What about a robust chaos mutations system, like the one I suggested? Is it an essential or extraneous feature? The game would surely work just fine without it. However it would powerfully and flavorfully depict the taint of Chaos in the Warhammer universe, while adding interesting gameplay possibilities. Here the answer is not so clear cut. In this case I'd say it's not a matter of precisely determining its impact on the game, but largely depends on one's creative vision. In my vision (as a game designer wannabe), it's an essential feature. For someone else however, given the constraints of the development process, it might not be, and choose to focus on other aspects of the game.

To give another example, take a wonderful mod for Dawn of War called DowPro.

Dawn of War: Professional (DoWPro) is a mod for the Dawn of War franchise that has been developed over many years, and is based on the Warhammer 40000 universe. The mod aims to enhance the multiplayer experience by incorporating intelligent gameplay design and balance with the exciting and spectacular game that is Dawn of War.

No longer will units become obsolete as you gain higher tech, and no longer will you have to spam a certain 'overpowered' unit in order to win. In DoWPro strength through diversity is promoted, and with the return of the 'hard counter' system from the original Dawn of War game, DoWPro offers the player many different choices on their path to victory.

The latest version of DoWPro is for the third and last Dawn of War expansion: SoulStorm. Boasting nine completely unique races to choose from, DoWpro: SS offers a huge amount variety.

I ended up liking the mod more than the original game. It's not that the creator of the mod is a more professional better trained designer than those from Relic. He simply had a different creative vision which he executed beautifully.

[Saladin]

Mostly what I would want to add is regiments of renown and dogs of war from warhammer lore. It's possible that the will eventually have these though. Perhaps some special characters not in-game , and lore specific changes. Again too early to tell how deep into warhammer they are going

[Hymne der Nacht]

I fear, the greed of Games Workshop simply does not allow modding. If you are able to mod your own Dark Elves, Ogres, Bretons and other long forgotten armies like Dogs of War or Asian Half Orcs on Temple Dogs, you don`t have to pay for them. I´m playing WARHAMMER for more than 30 years and it simply has changed from a crazy freakclub with adorable members to a world wide Enterprise that has more guys working in selling than in sculpting and producing. If you look at the prices for the miniatures today, they are far from reasonable. My Kids could never affort to have more than one army because it`s so damned expensive. We will see the same with TW Warhammer, they will squeeze every €uro or $ they can....
If it will be different, I will light a candle in the church and pray for the Hail of the Emperor!

[Orkfaeller]

I fear, the greed of Games Workshop simply does not allow modding. If you are able to mod your own Dark Elves, Ogres, Bretons and other long forgotten armies like Dogs of War or Asian Half Orcs on Temple Dogs, you don`t have to pay for them. I´m playing WARHAMMER for more than 30 years and it simply has changed from a crazy freakclub with adorable members to a world wide Enterprise that has more guys working in selling than in sculpting and producing. If you look at the prices for the miniatures today, they are far from reasonable. My Kids could never affort to have more than one army because it`s so damned expensive. We will see the same with TW Warhammer, they will squeeze every €uro or $ they can....
If it will be different, I will light a candle in the church and pray for the Hail of the Emperor!

Modding was supported for the Dawn of War games. So I'm not convinced the problem is GW here.

[Son of Horus]

Modding was supported for the Dawn of War games. So I'm not convinced the problem is GW here.

Dawn of War was GW 2004, when it was actually a kinda cool company with a lot of potential things happening to it. Fast forward 11 years and several (intercommunity) high profile IP-conflict cases (Chapter House, Space Marine book etc), GW are suddenly shoring up their ability to control the game.

We have been fed the marketing spiel from CA, which is questionable as to how true or accurate (of course, I don't think that with the motions to bring several companies to court over defrauding people, a CA employee hired and used to interact with highly volatile community (with complaints of various accuracy, ability, and even the language being a stumbling block for many) is unlikely to outright lie; I think it's more to do with that there are technical difficulties to modding the game and having to direct money (after all, this is a 3rd "studio" set up to develop the game alongside Arena and "historical") into setting this up for people is not a priority.

Whether this difficulty to produce an end user friendly set of tools that also meets the licensing allowances of the various companies they've utilised (ranging from Adobe and 3dsMax to Zbrush or various other esoteric little apps and plugins) is something that means that we aren't having support results in things being actively blocked off is going to be interesting.

I've had a couple of beers (Sunday Funday), which might make some of that hard to understand, but what I'm saying is that there is a possibility it's difficult to make tools that meet the constituent parts, and it may not have so much to do with GW saying "no, you can't use it to make a Lord of the Rings mod" (because we all know that's likely to be one of the first mods suggested.

[scoicarius]

We think one of the most exciting relationships in the PC community are fans that get so excited about your product that they want to do more with it. So we want to give them the tools to do so, and they're gonna have the full editor, they're gonna have our content, they're gonna have the gameplay source so they can do total conversions, partial modifications...they can make whatever their hearts desire.

This is from an interview with Garth DeAngelis, the senior producer of X-COM 2 (superb game by the way). Beautiful mindset and approach.

[Vardeus]

This is from an interview with the developer of X-COM 2. Beautiful mindset and approach.

Why do you feel the urge to remind us there is actually nice people developing games out there? I meet your comment with a scornful glare of disapproval.

[HigoChumbo]

I love Xcom and I love that they are keeping modding accesible for the sequel, but I would not get carried away by what developers say. If they do it, it's probably because they have studied it and they've concluded it's profitable for them in some way. Altruism and fully honest, sincere statements are not something one usually gets from big developers. The strategy they choose does not really matter, in the end they are all just trying to sell you a product.

Firaxis is not preciselly an indie company. And they are part of a huge corporation (2k games, Take2, Rockstar, etc.).