Help with Pontus?

[Antioco III]

Coming from a pretty stable and unsurprisingly calm campaign with seleukeia (maybe cause i kept playing after updates. I should have started a new one. Apart from the broken colony system, ptolemys too weakly defended mikra asia possesions, parthians, baktrians and armenia were never a serious threat cause, i guess, of unstable economy and lacking of aggressiveness. Many minor issues but im sure it was my fault, will restart a seleukeia campaign after the mythological summer release) I now started a pontic campaign. And, by almighty Zeus, i remeber EB1 pontus was a tough task, but seriously guys O.o Im scared. I manage to take the almost unguarded caucasus settlement and sinope, but i simply cant come out this gigantic debt. I dont have money to mantain a decent army. How can i expand or consolidate my few possessions with such a malus? I feel like Greece. Should i start selling the royal tombs to the European Bank?
Any help? Thanks

[QuintusSertorius]

Which version are you playing?

[Antioco III]

2.03a with the colony fix

[Doulkus Pontikus]

As a fellow Pontus player here's my 2 cents.

-Don't misuse your initial army.
Some players disband the cavalry or make similar debt relief decisions. I don't. Try to expand quickly. Get Ani-Kamah on the third turn. Go for Trapezounta, Sinope or Ankyra until turn 10. You need four cities for a viable economy.

-Use diplomacy.
Get peace and trade rights from Ptolemies. I usually manage to squish some money for trade rights as well. Get as many trade rights as you can get from your neighbours. Don't get into a fight with Seleukeia early on. Get an Alliance with Armenia.

-Use the minor settlements.
The Pontic units are expensive. When you don't use them in battle there is no reason to pay for them. Any unit in a minor settlement has free upkeep.

-Don't overbuild.
I start by building farms, roads and anything that can get my economy up. But only the basic stuff. Sometimes I don't build at all, saving money for later.

-Fight your own battles!
Automatic resolve is out of the question. Generally you should know that the FM are excellent cavalry and the way you use them could be crucial in a battle.

-Don't overexpand.
I had to wait for 30 or more turns when I got my four cities. Building an empire with Pontus is not a fast procedure. You have to build your economic base and make sure that there is enough money to raise an army and maintain peace in the settlements. Be sure that all your neighbours will attack you at the first opportunity.

-Be alert for any weakness.
Seleukeia in particulary could be a target. Don't forget--> Mazaka is yours for the taking.

-Your land is your strength.
Use the bridges to defend against much bigger armies. Use the narrow mountain passes to block the road to invaders.

-Asia Minor is sweet!
Mazaka, Ankyra, Sinope, Trapezounta, Tarsos, Ipsos, Sardis and even Pergamos (if you can take it!) can get you rich beyond your imagination!

-Go for the reforms quick!
Alas your initial army options suck big time! Apart from the Cappadocians and Phallanx, most other units are weaker than your opponent's and more expensive. Don't install Allied govs for too long. Go for Stratigeiai and try to conquer the nessecary cities to trigger the reforms. Even if it's a long and painful process, it always pays off.

-Useful units: FM cavalry, Phallanx, Cappadocian cavalry (it should be a little stronger IMO, but who are we to ask?), Cappadocian archers and spearmen (at least early on), Hoplites.
After the reforms: Kuvesavaghan cavalry, Chariots (phallanx killer), Peltastes Logades.

[Antioco III]

Thanks for the tips! I actually used the war with egypt to easily take alikarnaxos and ephesus. Yeah, long way from home, but they were unguarded and now, with this personal dibasis, i earned two cities as a good economic source and immediattely made peace with the ptolemys. I just took trapezous and ani kamah. Im at peace with everyone (except rome, but of course for now theyre not a threat). Trade rights with almost any factions. Its a hard campaign but one of the most interesting. Had really good times in EB1! My goal now is to not irritate any faction and slowly conquer the eleutheroi settlements in anatolia. It will be long, i guess, as u said. The governament buildings im... building are just strategiai, so i can have a good centralized and militaristic kingdom later on. For now Im trying to use few hellenic infantry (hoplites and logades) for shock purpuses, while the indigenous levies are pretty lame but still form the core of my army(s). I agree for the cappadocian cavalry, its way too weak in defense. Im using it in combination with the general bodyguards. Theres plenty of em. And yeah, its risky, but fortuna audaces iuvat

[Shadowwalker]

After reading about your struggle I couldn't resist the urge to start my first EB 2.x Pontos campaign. I remember them being one of the most unique and fun factions in EB 1. I played about half a dozen (or even more) Pontos campaigns in EB 1 and eventually found a working early strategy. You just had to take Mazaka, Ipsos and Sardis right at the start and then add Halikarnassos, Side and Tarsos to your realm. From there it was rather straight-forward gameplay and not at all "nigh-impossible" anymore.

Well, I had a brief look at the garrisons of those settlements when I started the EB 2 campaign and instantly decided that Pontos definitely needs a new strategy.

I may have found a working one:

(Turn 1) Build a granary in Amaseia and recruit all available infantry units in Amaseia (2 Pontic Spearmen, 1 Eastern Slingers, 1 Kappadocian Infantry).
Merge all your starting armies at a place north-west of Amaseia. That includes your Amaseia garrison and your Faction Leader. He is one of the best generals any faction has at the start so you want to use his 6 command stars.
Send your Diplomat south-west to Ipsos and seal a trade agreement with the Seleukids.

(Turn 2) Siege Sinope, don't build siege equipment. Unless you are an exceptional tactician, that is. I am not, I don't dare to assault settlements defended by 10+ units in EB 2 - especially not if you only have mediocre infantry at your service. The early Pontos army relies on the superiour cavalry. The infantry is in my battles only there to make the enemy stand still and therefore a perfect target for cavalry charges.
Send your Diplomat to Pergamon to get trade rights. Continue to circle him around the Black Sea in the next turns, visiting Getai, Bosphoran Greeks, Sauromatae, Hayasdan in that order. Don't even try to get an alliance with any of these factions. Most will reject the offer anyway. And Hayasdan who are perhaps agreeing are one of the factions you need to destroy to win the campaign. And breaking alliances is bad for your reputation.
Watch your finances turn red. Very very very red. You are losing around 4k per turn. And it will be some time until your finances change into something positive. In my case it were 42 turns.

(Turn 3-8) Wait for Sinopes garrison to sally, win the battle with very little casualties by deploying your infantry in a long line, the cavalry on both wings (2 bodyguards and one cappadocian cavalry each). As soon as the garrison is almost completely out of the gate charge the blob of units from three sides. If you do it right they almost instantly rout. I won that battle with less than 50 casualties.
Occupy the town. Don't exterminate.
Leave a garrison behind, just enough to prevent a revolt. You'll probably need to leave 4 infantry units and a family member behind. Luckily Mithradates came to age in the meantime so that you have 4 family members in the army again. Try to maintain that number until your heroic early conquest is done.
Move the army towards Ani-Kamah. Take the 2 Pontic Spearmen and the Cappadocian Infantry from Amaseia and send them to the army to replace the garrison you left at Sinope.

(Turn 8+) Take Ani-Kamah, Trapezous, Kutatisi in that order (and Mazaka, if you feel like fighting a battle where you are outnumbered at least 1:2, depending on your previous casualties). Never exterminate a settlement and always starve them out. If you are really lucky (like me) you will get some marriage offers for your daughters and therefore up to three (or even four?) "free" generals. use them to replace the units you left behind as garrison. In the end my field army consisted of 2 Caucasian Spearmen, one Hoplitai, 1 Cappadocian Infantry and 2 Cappadocian Cavalry, none of them above 50% strength. But I had 6 family members in that army, all with at least 2 silver chevrons. And the Faction Leader had - like his father - 6 command stars.

[That army even was enough to take Ankyra (which I was forced to exterminate due to the culture unrest) and Nikaia. Pergamon had attacked the town but only succeeded in seriously weakening the garrison, not in taking the town. So I said "thanks" and finished what they had started.]

If you are as lucky as me you own 8 settlements now (or 5 if you stopped conquering after Kutatisi) and either make some profit again or just need to send a few units to the several minor settlements to get into the positive.
Well, sort of. If you decide to conquer everything up to Nikaia as I did, you'll be around 75k in debt after that.

And you're definitely not done with your initial battles. There are some of the hardest yet to come: the various rebel stacks in the provinces. There is at least one halfstack west of Amaseia, one north-east of Ani-Kamah, one north of Ankyra and one (or even two) west and southwest of Nikaia. Use your bodyguards well and those fights should be manageable.

Important: if you play on hard or very hard campaign difficulty, you may have to attack those stacks in between your conquests to prevent them taking your lightly defended settlements. On medium you can wait until after the conquest but should not ignore the stacks because they cause 2k+ of devastation each turn.

Also important: once your diplomat is done with his sightseeing tour around the Black Sea, send him to the Seleukids and offer them Alliance + Military Access + Map information each turn. No worries, they won't agree to that but you will get better relations eventually. After about 20 turns you will have outstanding relations with them, thereby decreasing the chance that they attack you.

Following these steps (and with a bit of luck, especially in regard to the other factions/the Eleutheroi not attacking you) you will be out of debt by turn 40-45 and make around 6k (with 8 settlements) and probably around 3k with 5 settlements.
And no field army worth the mention. *cough*

So after this conquest tour you will probably spend some dozen turns trying to get your economy up and running. Ports/roads (everyhwere) and mines (in Nikaia) will help with that.

After being financially stable, your next targets should be those on the above list you don't own yet and Chersonesos/Pantikapaion after that. (Yes, that means war with the Bosphoran Greeks). You want that reform to happen, after all. Which reform, you ask?
Have a look here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...m-requirements . Simpelicity put a lot of effort into this, it's well worth reading it.

Pontos has in my opinion become a lot harder than in EB 1 but is still at least as much fun as back then. And the better diplomacy helps a lot.

[Antioco III]

Thanks everyone for the help. But im a rightful Basileus Besileon now. Muhahaha. Just had to try harder. I didnt lost battles but many many soldiers. Its hard to achieve victory with the units u have. I focused on mantaining good relations with everyone and even with Bosphorus, once taken the need settlement, i agreed to have peace. Now i shall work on building the empire for real ;D
Anyone did what i did? I mean exploit war with egypt to gain lower Asia Minor? Its risky but i found it rewarding

[Doulkus Pontikus]

Hail Shah Shehvar! Congrats!
You got lucky with the Ptolies. By the time I managed to get rid of the Seleukids, they had no cities left in Asia Minor. I'm surprised that Pergamos hasn't attacked them first. They were ultra aggresive in my campaign. But as I said "exploit every weakness".
With some luck I'll post my victory screen by the end of the month. I'm currently rooting out the last Seleukid cities in the Afganistan region.
I hope to be ready for the summer release!
Have fun on your campaign.

[Antioco III]

Thanks. By the way yeah, many have noticed that already, but Pergamon is kinda passive and weak. And i recall when some years ago they were deciding which new factions include and i was against pergamon. The major thing they did was building altars and letting Rome in Asia Minor. Ok maybe im exaggerating. But if the false kind of Pergamon is gonna stay, it must be more difficult to be taken. Thats my opinion

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks. By the way yeah, many have noticed that already, but Pergamon is kinda passive and weak. And i recall when some years ago they were deciding which new factions include and i was against pergamon. The major thing they did was building altars and letting Rome in Asia Minor. Ok maybe im exaggerating. But if the false kind of Pergamon is gonna stay, it must be more difficult to be taken. Thats my opinion

They conquered half of Asia Minor before anyone knew where Pontos was, and long before becoming a Roman client. If it weren't for the weakening of the region upon being bequested to Rome, I'm not sure Mithridates VI of Pontos would have had the opportunity to become the figure he was.

[Antioco III]

That was a joke man, and btw im not saying "yah man pontus rocks, pergamon is " XD But i must say also what u wrote is partially true. Pergamon have to thank that the seleukids were never too much interested in gaining DIRECT control of the region. And when they wanted to, the attalids managed to stop em (and not always) just beacause the arche of asia had this very little problem: lolyalty of his commanders and family members. But, i repeat, im not telling pergamon is lame. Just not as cool as many people think. The attalids were more a cultural power (and i have my reserves even on this.. we can all pay for artists when we have money) XP