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Thread: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

  1. #41
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    You can't possibly be saying CoW has mediocre quality unit mods Same for Third Age really.. it's one of the most comprehensive mods ever produced by the most talented in the MTW2 modding scene. I'd even say most CoW models look better than the vanilla units, but that's just me. I myself played it awhile with all the factions for a bit around 2012-2013, there's alot of diversity and playing styles fighting off the chaos invasion with the different units. But yeah anything gets old eventually.
    Well, while it's certainly remarkable that amateur modders can achieve what they did with those mods, but if you compare them with proper games then yes I'd say the quality is in general mediocre. You can't compare an adaptation with a cohesive product designed from scratch with very clear goals in mind. I value and respect (and in many cases enjoy) the effort of modders, but for me the the fact that it's a mod alone does not make the product more enjoyable.

    Let's say I review the quality of the final product independently of who has made it. (the difference being that if an amateur modder releases mediocre content I'd just say "ok, you tried, thanks for the effort, keep up the good work" while if it's a proffesional developer whose product -which was advertised as the second coming of Jesus- I've paid for then I'd probably be really annoyed).


    I'd even say most CoW models look better than the vanilla units
    My memories of CoW are vague, but I recall the orc models being great for instance. But that's not where the problem comes. Things get worse the more they try to change. For instance, the implementation of monsters is in my opinion not good, and you can't take away the feeling of the game being an "make-do workaround" than a fully-fledged, cohesive, consistent product designed from scratch with very specific and researched design goals in mind. The audio, the artistic design, the animations, all those tend to suffer as well.

    Mmm... how to put it... you might like architecture and out of interest you might be able to build an amazing St.Peter's basilica model using legos, but ultimatelly it's just not going to be as good a building as if you did it with proper construction materials and a professional team behind you. It's still going to be a remarkable achievement, but not something that substitutes the real deal.

    (I hope that did not make things worse xD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfburk View Post
    Basically what you are saying is that total conversions are inherently mediocre in quality
    No, specially if you consider Europa Barbarorum or Broken Crescent as full conversions. It's quite easier to change models or even adapt animations for those games (historical games with human units) than implementing monsters or magic or what not.

    The final result will most likely also be much more cohesive since the base game is designed for an historical setting.


    Basically, speak for yourself mate.
    Again, have I ever not spoken for myself?


    And the main reason Total War has been taking quite a reputation hit with the pc community is the lack of total conversions ever since Empire.
    I'd say it's more tied to their consistent completelly bugged releases since Medieval 2 to be honest. The whole TW community is part of the PC community, and inside the TW community, the modding crowd is probably a minority.

    I am a pc Total War fan and I absolutelly love mods, and there is just no way I could blame CA more for not fully supporting mods (since it's not at all something they are compelled to do) as for not releasing polished, fully fledged, ambitious and beautifully designed games. I love(d) Blizzard games for instance and I have never felt the need to mod them, and the lack of mods has not hindered their reputation because their games are often just really good and well designed. Even if you might want to try new stuff every now and then, in many caes you end up realizing that the cohesion and quality achieved by the professionals is just so much better.

    Modding is a really nice extra that adds replayability value, but in my opinion it is just not the main reason why I buy a game, in the vast majority of cases. If Warhammer TW ended up being a close to perfect game, I bet 95% of the people would just not bother modding it. Thing is that CA games are rarely close to perfection (and I'm not talking just about bugs, but about intentional design choices in general, be it artistic, or mechanical or whatever).
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; June 10, 2015 at 10:42 PM.

  2. #42
    Yomamashouse's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    This is the McGaming era, everything is streamlined and in place of robust modding tools we have DLC - of course there will be no modding support. CA sold its soul for the money of casual gamers, and you can't un-sell your soul.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    I think that what Higo meant when he said that new units in total conversion mods lacked quality was that it's easier to model a better looking knight than invent a new flying dragon. Therefore, that's why simple texture tweaks or unit improvements are more satisfying to him than a mod that brings trolls and dwarves to TW. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong of course.

    For instance, in CoW, the Empire knights look simply stunning. Above and beyond anything we saw in the standard game, really. However, trolls, boar riders and other mythical creatures are pretty wonky. They are certainly well textured, but it's difficult to animate a troll using the resources from the core game.
    Similarly, in Third Age, trolls, dwarves and goblins all use the same animation model that has just been re-sized, making their movements a bit weird. I don't expect a troll to fight the same way as a dwarf for example. Another case would be the wargs, which are also well textured, but whose animation skeletons were built from scratch.

  4. #44
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchyvinnie View Post
    I think that what Higo meant when he said that new units in total conversion mods lacked quality was that it's easier to model a better looking knight than invent a new flying dragon. Therefore, that's why simple texture tweaks or unit improvements are more satisfying to him than a mod that brings trolls and dwarves to TW. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong of course.
    Pretty much spot on. I have an awful tendency to express myself like crap with long paragraphs filled with unrelated metaphoric examples, and it does not get better when I sleep a couple of intermitent hours a day. I slapped myself in the face the other day when I saw DavidtheDuke perfectly summarizing in a couple of sentences what had taken me a huge wall of text to say.

    For instance, in CoW, the Empire knights look simply stunning. Above and beyond anything we saw in the standard game, really. However, trolls, boar riders and other mythical creatures are pretty wonky. They are certainly well textured, but it's difficult to animate a troll using the resources from the core game.
    Similarly, in Third Age, trolls, dwarves and goblins all use the same animation model that has just been re-sized, making their movements a bit weird. I don't expect a troll to fight the same way as a dwarf for example. Another case would be the wargs, which are also well textured, but whose animation skeletons were built from scratch.
    Yupp, but not just that, it's not only a visual thing, the mechanics are also workarounds and makes the game feel very cheap at times. For instance, I saw a combat between mumakils and trolls the other day and I have to say that the interactions were quite bad.

    Then you have plenty of small, immersion breaking details (like 20 metter high mumakils going through 4 metter high gates).



    And one of the main problems I have with total conversions is that they are ultimatelly just a thin coat of paint, even when the map is different, the units are different, the sound is different and so on, it ultimatelly plays and feels (visually) almost exactly than the vanilla game. It's also one of the problems I have with the screens of Warhammer TW. To me the atmosphere looks pretty much like any other historical TW with a more reddish hue. Even when it's made with the same graphical engine, in my opinion a good art direction should have made the game look and feel completelly different. Take for instance games made with the same engine like Portal, Left4Dead or Dota 2, or Company of Heroes and Dawn of War 2, each having their own distinctive unique atmosphere and playing completelly different. Dota 2 for example achieves a very fantasy-like atmosphere, and it's not becaue it has wizards and trolls in it, but because of having a cohesive artistic design with spot on lightining, models, textures, animations, particles etc.

    When I watch Call of Warhammer or Third Age, I don't see a new unique game, I just see Medieval 2 with different units. It seems to me that it won't be very different with TW:WH and other TW3/Warscape games, although I don't want to be so pessimistic so soon, so le'ts just wait and see. E3 is next week after all, let's hope for the best.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    When I watch Call of Warhammer or Third Age, I don't see a new unique game, I just see Medieval 2 with different units. It seems to me that it won't be very different with TW:WH and other TW3/Warscape games, although I don't want to be so pessimistic so soon, so le'ts just wait and see. E3 is next week after all, let's hope for the best.
    I get what you're saying and basically agree, and it's those shortcomings are why I was so excited for a CA's version of Warhammer, so troll animations could be what was mostly playing in my imagination (which is what I suspect CoW lovers do as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchyvinnie View Post
    For instance, in CoW, the Empire knights look simply stunning. Above and beyond anything we saw in the standard game, really. However, trolls, boar riders and other mythical creatures are pretty wonky. They are certainly well textured, but it's difficult to animate a troll using the resources from the core game.
    Similarly, in Third Age, trolls, dwarves and goblins all use the same animation model that has just been re-sized, making their movements a bit weird. I don't expect a troll to fight the same way as a dwarf for example. Another case would be the wargs, which are also well textured, but whose animation skeletons were built from scratch.
    Yeah, the closest that game to alleviating some of this was the animations made for Third Age, though I don't know how many they did, I just recall a few being made. I think for the two handed units.
    Last edited by DavidtheDuke; June 11, 2015 at 09:14 AM.

  6. #46
    petertel123's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Well, while it's certainly remarkable that amateur modders can achieve what they did with those mods, but if you compare them with proper games then yes I'd say the quality is in general mediocre. You can't compare an adaptation with a cohesive product designed from scratch with very clear goals in mind. I value and respect (and in many cases enjoy) the effort of modders, but for me the the fact that it's a mod alone does not make the product more enjoyable.
    for me it's the opposite, I think vanilla medieval 2 TW is completely mediocre and forgettable in almost every way, it's the great mods that made me play it for a significant amount of time

  7. #47
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by petertel123 View Post
    for me it's the opposite, I think vanilla medieval 2 TW is completely mediocre and forgettable in almost every way, it's the great mods that made me play it for a significant amount of time
    I never said Medieval 2 was great. In fact it's the TW title that killed my devotion for CA got me upset with them. I didn't buy a single TW at release since Medieval 2 because of that until Rome 2 (I gave them credit back after Shogun 2). I guess I'm back to waiting for deals for a few years more. Even with the dream come true that Warhammer was meant to be.

    I personally enjoyed Rome 1 mods quite a lot more than Medieval 2 mods (I never understood how people could play SS with the minute long turns). I have fond memories of Broken Crescent though.


    That said, mediocre and forgettable are not the words I'd use. And it implies an oversimplification (it had some mediocre aspects, and it had some great aspects that allowed mods to be great in turn). Many of those mods you guys love are 80% Medieval 2. It's just that what you see the shiny new coat of paint. So if you really do love those mods, it's a bit unfair to be so harsh towards vanilla.

  8. #48
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Well either CA does something or they will see it drown within the next 40 years.





















































  9. #49

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    That said, mediocre and forgettable are not the words I'd use. And it implies an oversimplification (it had some mediocre aspects, and it had some great aspects that allowed mods to be great in turn). Many of those mods you guys love are 80% Medieval 2. It's just that what you see the shiny new coat of paint. So if you really do love those mods, it's a bit unfair to be so harsh towards vanilla.
    It's not really just a shiny new coat of paint.. I would say mechanics you're right, but there's too much that's added and it makes vanilla intolerable to use really. It sucks that MTW2 was the last full conversionable game. I think that era's over, sadly. At least indepth mods like DEI still can add alot and there is still Stainless Steel like mods possible. Hopefully something like that'll be for Warhammer too, since CA probably won't be able to add every single mercenary unit etc etc into the vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Well, while it's certainly remarkable that amateur modders can achieve what they did with those mods, but if you compare them with proper games then yes I'd say the quality is in general mediocre. You can't compare an adaptation with a cohesive product designed from scratch with very clear goals in mind. I value and respect (and in many cases enjoy) the effort of modders, but for me the the fact that it's a mod alone does not make the product more enjoyable.
    I wouldn't say the collective assets of CoW are at all mediocre, I just don't think so. They did well with the engine. The game's engine is nearly 9 years old, too.
    Last edited by DavidtheDuke; June 11, 2015 at 02:23 PM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    At the risk of pointing out the obvious, Higo, all your arguments about why full conversions tend to be lackluster hinge on the simple fact that there are parts of the base product that literally can't be touched. Given the results that many of the quality total conversion mods have achieved in spite of these limitations, I have little doubt that if a team of modders had full access to change whatever they wanted about the game, they could take things a great deal further and would, in fact, produce a much stronger product. Clearly that will never happen, and for obvious reasons, but it's nothing to hold against the mods themselves.

    I understand what you're saying, but I get the impression that you're faulting them for things that are literally beyond their control. Yes, they're doing the best they can with what they can. That's the reality. That's why there's so much of the "well thanks for trying, I'll take it," reaction that you're criticizing.

  11. #51
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfgard the Unmaker View Post
    At the risk of pointing out the obvious, Higo, all your arguments about why full conversions tend to be lackluster hinge on the simple fact that there are parts of the base product that literally can't be touched.
    Well, whatever the reasons are, as said above, I judge the final product independently of who made it. I'm not judging the modders or critizising their efforts (again, I truly find what they do remarkable).

    I have little doubt that if a team of modders had full access to change whatever they wanted about the game, they could take things a great deal further and would, in fact, produce a much stronger product.
    Neither do I. I'm hardly blaming the modders for anything.

    I am in any case honestly surprised about the lack of new stuff I'm seeing for Rome 2. I believe adding new models is still possible and yet I've seen almost nothing but new textures, stat tweaks and refloated models that came with the game but did not make it into the final release. I'm no modder so I don't know what's the reason for that. Despite all the explanations I keep asking myself how hard can it be to add something as basic as a new helmet or shield to the game, to be honest. As far as I'm concerned the Assembly kits allow you to export stuff to 3dmax.

    I understand what you're saying, but I get the impression that you're faulting them for things that are literally beyond their control. Yes, they're doing the best they can with what they can. That's the reality. That's why there's so much of the "well thanks for trying, I'll take it," reaction that you're criticizing.
    Again I'm not at at blaming the modders. I've said several times that I admire their work. I'm merely saying that while their additions are remarkable, I still can't enjoy them so much (in some cases) as a fully-fledged, proffessional made product (with a few exceptions of course, I enjoyed Rome 1 mods a lot more than I enjoyed vanilla, for instance, same goes with Napoleon TW).

    And I think you misunderstood me, I'm not critizising the "thanks for trying, I'll take it" reaction, I said that that's actually my own reaction, but that the fact that I appreciate their efforts does not make me enjoy the mod more if it turns out to be not quite there when it comes to judging its overall quality compared to a proffesional game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke
    I would say mechanics you're right, but there's too much that's added and it makes vanilla intolerable to use really.
    Indeed, there is no way I would go back to vanilla Rome 1 after having played stuff like Total Realism, Europa Barbarorum or Roma Surrectum, but if I see poorly implemented mechanics/workarounds, like the way monsters are implemented in CoW/TaTW, I just can't get myself to fully enjoy the mod as I don't fully enjoy vanilla for having a very limited design and a lack of ambition and risk-taking (risk taking as in "we are not going to do this because casuals won't like/understand it").

    So in the end, he fact that I might end up not enjoying a full conversion mod so much does not make vanilla a better option. It's just makes me constantly feel like "ok, that's great, but still quite not there" and hope for an ambitious professional developer to take it as a reference and do a fully fledged version. Warhammer TW is the closest I've seen in those lines, so my hopes are high, even when I still think that it's not going to be nearly as revolutionary and worth of legend as they could have achieved if they had designed it from scratch and with more ambition (and yes, that's all speculation until we see gameplay, but still, just my predictions, nothing wrong with that).

  12. #52

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Indeed, there is no way I would go back to vanilla Rome 1 after having played stuff like Total Realism, Europa Barbarorum or Roma Surrectum, but if I see poorly implemented mechanics/workarounds, like the way monsters are implemented in CoW/TaTW, I just can't get myself to fully enjoy the mod as I don't fully enjoy vanilla for having a very limited design and a lack of ambition and risk-taking (risk taking as in "we are not going to do this because casuals won't like/understand it").

    So in the end, he fact that I might end up not enjoying a full conversion mod so much does not make vanilla a better option. It's just makes me constantly feel like "ok, that's great, but still quite not there" and hope for an ambitious professional developer to take it as a reference and do a fully fledged version. Warhammer TW is the closest I've seen in those lines, so my hopes are high, even when I still think that it's not going to be nearly as revolutionary and worth of legend as they could have achieved if they had designed it from scratch and with more ambition (and yes, that's all speculation until we see gameplay, but still, just my predictions, nothing wrong with that).
    Oh, I've always felt this way. But CA is the only game in town so modders have to work with that unfortunately. I agree with you on WH is going to potentially be in the end be hampered by chronic bad bugs and/or bad game design decisions (again). There is a slight hope they'll fix this even more so than they did for Rome 2 with the expansions etc. But maybe, as you said, we gotta wait for gameplay and more information.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    but if you compare them with proper games then yes I'd say the quality is in general mediocre. You can't compare an adaptation with a cohesive product designed from scratch with very clear goals in mind.
    Well, the unit design in vanilla MTW2 was just bad, potato-quality bad. It was not a fault of the engine as even I can squeeze more from the engine. I think they suffered because artist had to do everything and cutting corners (recolors, lack of fine detail) did save them time. I decided to focus solely on Gondor in TA and this way I could polish my units as much as I could. Mods have the luxury of using game as a base with can be polished and improved IF ITS POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO SO FOR S SAKE! I hate the way games become less and less moddable in favor for money grabbing DLC's. Im just addicted to modding and I hate to see that go due to greed.

    BTW: The reason why someone might love the Third Age mod: there isnt really a good grand strategy game set in that universe, but TA keeps going along thanks to submods. Yeah there are workarounds, but I take it as there is nothing else like this anywhere.

    As for CA response in this thread, this is what I got from it:

    Modding Fanbase: Please give us a way to do some serious modding.
    CA: Our data shows that what you really want are unit packs, so here are some lame DLC's. Now, STFU and give us you moniez.
    Last edited by Taro_M; June 12, 2015 at 10:37 AM.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by Taro_M View Post
    As for CA response in this thread, I got this from it:

    Modding Fanbase: Please give us a way to do some serious modding.
    CA: Our data shows that what you really want are unit packs, so here are some lame DLC's. Now, STFU and give us you moniez.
    I like you.

  15. #55
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by Taro_M View Post
    Well, the unit design in vanilla MTW2 was just bad, potato-quality bad. It was not a fault of the engine as even I can squeeze more from the engine. I think they suffered because artist had to do everything and cutting corners (recolors, lack of fine detail) did save them time. I decided to focus solely on Gondor in TA and this way I could polish my units as much as I could. Mods have the luxury of using game as a base with can be polished and improved IF ITS POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO SO FOR S SAKE! I hate the way games become less and less moddable in favor for money grabbing DLC's. Im just addicted to modding and I hate to see that go due to greed.

    BTW: The reason why someone might love the Third Age mod: there isnt really a good grand strategy game set in that universe, but TA keeps going along thanks to submods. Yeah there are workarounds, but I take it as there is nothing else like this anywhere.

    As for CA response in this thread, this is what I got from it:

    Modding Fanbase: Please give us a way to do some serious modding.
    CA: Our data shows that what you really want are unit packs, so here are some lame DLC's. Now, STFU and give us you moniez.
    Haha, best response ever!!!





















































  16. #56
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by Taro_M View Post
    Well, the unit design in vanilla MTW2 was just bad, potato-quality bad.
    I don't agree. For the time they were quite good. I remember that when they released the first screenshots of units like the heavy turk/arab cavalry or the imperial forlorn hope I was pretty impressed. The horses looked a hell of a lot better than before (both the models and the animations). If you recall the horses in Rome 1 were pretty bad. Too slim, no sense of weight and the units moved like flocks of birds. Looking at the heavy cavalry running in M2TW previews for Pavía and Agincourt was pretty cool and definatelly a big improvement.



    In fact, looking back at it now I'd say that, even with the worse graphics, units had much better proportions and general design than some Rome 2 units (like most romans) or even the imperial infantry in the Warhammer screenshots. The fluffly clothing looks better as well in my opinion, here it does feel like the soldier actually fills the clothes/armor he is wearing. They look more Warhamerish than TW:Warhammer's own imperial troops.

    Hell, even the crappy plain textures they used for the faces give me a better impression of "humanity" than some of the much more detailed, fully modelled faces they used in Rome 2, which looked like dull, disproportionate toys (and no, I'm not saying I prefer outdated graphics, I'm just highlighting that better graphics don't always equal better visual results if the talent of the artist does not keep up). They remind me a lot of old FIFAs faces:






    In any case, most of the historical mods I've seen for MTW2 have a huge reliance on vanilla unit models. They mostly changed textures (for the best), since that was the main problem with vanilla and the easier to adress: the absurd garish colouring textures that in many cases made the soldiers look like plastic toys. Look for instance at the this unit in vanilla and Broken Crescent, the models are exactly the same:






    In many cases, textures alone made the game look a hell of a lot better. I remember some truly outstanding texture mods (I think Ornamentum did a pretty amazing job with units and banners, but I'm not sure if it's the one I'm thinking of, and the screens are gone now).


    lack of fine detail
    As starcraft 2 has shown perfectly, fine detail is not what you need to make a unit look amazing. Of course a great artist is going to make a unit look better with details than without them, but in most cases a very low polygon unit modelled and textured by good artists is going to look a much, much better than a unit made by an untalented professional even if he is used the best graphics technology in the world.

    I'd rather have good artistic design and animations over highly detailed models with zillions of polygons any day.


    For instance, this blurry artwork:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    looks much better and more realistc than any of these detailed drawings:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 










    Mods have the luxury of using game as a base with can be polished and improved
    Well, I completelly agree. At least for models, textures, gameplay tweaks, etc.

    Although I doubt that any amateur can do some stuff better than a professional studio, like for instance (new) animations, at least nowdays with all the expensive motion capture tech. The more complex the feature, the less likely it is that a modder is going to pull it off, that's why I say that I prefer flavour mods, since a flavour mod can retain all the professionality of the vanilla game and improve on it, while a more ambitious full conversion which tries to do a lot of new complicated stuff it's most likely going to end being mediocre as a game, even if the progress they make as amateurs is remarkable.


    I hate the way games become less and less moddable in favor for money grabbing DLC's
    Well, that's the way most of the industry seems to be going under the excuse of "games are getting too complex". It's not just TW, franchises that were the wet dream of modders have completelly removed any posibility to mod the game in the slightest. If not, look at Battlefield 2, which had a ton of amazing mods (Project Reality, Forgotten Hope or even Point of Existence). With Battlefield 3 there is just nothing. Of course, they now have dlcs/premium costing as much as the full-game.


    BTW: The reason why someone might love the Third Age mod: there isnt really a good grand strategy game set in that universe, but TA keeps going along thanks to submods. Yeah there are workarounds, but I take it as there is nothing else like this anywhere.
    Thing is I just can't get myself back to playing old total war campaigns. Not even somewhat recent stuff as Empire/Napoleon. The turn-based campaign part of Total War has always been bad and lackluster, and therefore gets old really, really quickly.

    As for CA response in this thread
    Honestly, that's not what I found weird. They probably have their own legitimate reasons to do what they do, be it business practice or Lusted's aforementioned engine limitations (which could pretty much be true although I'm assuming are just half truths or "half the truths" to calm things down).

    What bugged me was this sentence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lusted
    It shouldn't need to be said but this isn't true in the slightest.
    ...since it implies that we should have some kind of total trust in CA/SEGA, and honestly, after the shameless display of pre-release Rome 2, it's not something I'd be so quick to take for granted.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; June 12, 2015 at 01:36 PM.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    MTW2 obviously had multiple artists each working on different factions. IMHO the the western europe peasants and mailed units are pretty weak quality wise, while renascence era units are pretty solid. As for fine detail I didnt mean polycount but the polish and care for both textures and models. You can create some really nice units and thanks to MTW2's system for randomly assembling model from parts you can have loads of varieties in units. You can just take high res model and slap highest res texture parts to texture the unit, but attention to details like shadows on textures, normal map, gloss maps, minimizing stretching and clipping and such is what I mean through fine detail.

    Thing is I just can't get myself back to playing old total war campaigns. Not even somewhat recent stuff as Empire/Napoleon. The turn-based campaign part of Total War has always been bad and lackluster, and therefore gets old really, really quickly.
    I, on the other hand, love the grand campaign stuff, for me it gives the context to battles. I would LOVE to have Crusader Kings 2 for grand campaign and MTW2 for battles. If there somehow was a way to link the two and have CK2 tell MTW2 what battle to create and then take the results from MTW2....

    Also, all this talk about Warhammer made me think that a "Tabletop Total War" would be cool. One where you create your units: select what equipment, training, stats they could have (using points system) and then deciding on their colors or maybe even painting them in some way if you desire to do so.

  18. #58
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Quote Originally Posted by Taro_M View Post
    I, on the other hand, love the grand campaign stuff, for me it gives the context to battles.
    What I mean is not that a campaign does not fit TW, what I mean is that the quality of the TW campaign is bad. I would hate TW if it didn't have a campaign, since as you say it gives battles a context, a narrative. But right now, that's pretty much the only thing it does. It the campaign was good, it couls actually be an importan and really, really fun part of the game, not to mention it would give a lot more importance to the battles. Right now it's just a "go from battle A to battle B and paint the whole map in your faction's colour" platform.

    If they went for a more complex campaign (as I have always hoped), I think they should go for a more military/resource/trade focus than to a diplomacy/management simulator. I think that defending trade and supply routes as well as conquering and holding strategic resources and vantage points would fit TW much better than managing happiness or politics. Happiness and politics are almost entirely disconnected from battles (save for the ocassional revolt). For the game I have in mind I'd rather have them take inspiration from some features of games like Anno 1404 (irregular resource placement, phyisical trade routes), Wargame:EE (seamless real time strategical map to battle map transitions; battles happening on a larger area in different stages, with more maneuvering, instead of happening in just one point of the map) or Black & White (similar map/city layout on a much larger scale) and make a blend of that with TW sized strategical battles and a consistent campaign. Personally I'd love to see them try a full real time, slow paced game in which there were no loading screens between campaign and battles rather than a real time zoom in with everything happening on the same map, even if that required an overall reduced map scale (some kind of middle ground between Civilization/Rise of Nations and the current TW campaign size). That said, and with all that in mind, a diplomacy which worked as good as that of Europa Universalis 4 would be awesome.

    As for Crusader Kings 2, it's cool, but I see TW as more military focused, I believe that the complex "family" system that is the center of CK2 is so deep that it would be detrimental for a battle focused game such as TW, since it would take take too much attention and time from the actual warring. I think that that system deserves to have it's own separate game, although I could see a simplified version working quite good if they retained the turn-based system.

    Also, all this talk about Warhammer made me think that a "Tabletop Total War" would be cool.
    I have for years been startled at the fact that I've seen no one try to do that, specially considering how easy to make it would be. It's ridiculous that they are making chess games based on Warhammer rather than that. I imagine Games Workshop does not see with keen eyes the creation of a game which meant a much less profitable and more confortable to setup and play direct alternative to their main tabletop miniature selling business.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; June 13, 2015 at 01:24 AM.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    What does GW have to do anything with it? They can't answer for what CA's customers may do with a game that uses their license. Besides, mod overhauls do not have to be set in the Warhammer universe. They may use the engine to create say, a campaign set in a different environment, such as the LOTR universe or surprise surprise, the actual Medieval Ages.

    Also no mods - no interest. Mods not only add new features, they try to fix the vanilla's flaws and push the engine to its potential limit. Without mods, there is no twcenter, there is no TW community, there is no fanbase. If CA wants to kill whatever shred of credibility it has among its core supporters, removing moddability, the key feature of the franchise, is the way to do it.


    EDIT: Sorry, I haven't read Jack's reply to this thread prior to writing this post. Now that I have read it, I retract my comment. Mods, if you will, please delete this post as it serves no purpose to this thread.
    Last edited by Carl Jung was right; June 13, 2015 at 12:15 AM.

  20. #60
    Miles
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    Default Re: Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

    Still like to know if we ever get a modability of the map, is CA interested in making things back easier or will they continue their way like it is now?
    Without the probability to edit or extend the map ... yeah, it's mostly pointless to start great projects, sadly.

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