Limitless editing tools, map et cetera

[SanderP]

Will it be finally there, or again, nothing like that?

[DavidtheDuke]

Will it be finally there, or again, nothing like that?

CA has specifically stated no modding will be supported. That doesn't mean balancing mods or even units mods won't be possible, but absolutely no modding will be officially support by them. Kinda sucks, but that's at least one way GW has laid down the hammer.

[SanderP]

CA has specifically stated no modding will be supported. That doesn't mean balancing mods or even units mods won't be possible, but absolutely no modding will be officially support by them. Kinda sucks, but that's at least one way GW has laid down the hammer.

Is there any reason for that?
Or any statement since ETW that I may have missed why they do not hand out all the tools after the game is done and DLCs are all out, like it is the case in ETW, NTW, TWS2 or TWR2?

[frenchyvinnie]

Is there any reason for that?
Or any statement since ETW that I may have missed why they do not hand out all the tools after the game is done and DLCs are all out, like it is the case in ETW, NTW, TWS2 or TWR2?

I don't believe an official statement has been made on who ultimately decided to ban modding from this game, but it is rather obvious it was GW's decision.

CA has always been rather mod-friendly, all things considered. They've always recognized the value and longevity modders can add to TW games. It would not make a lot of sense for CA to suddenly decide to withhold modding tools for this particular game.

However, Games Workshop is notorious for being excessively paranoid and aggressive when it comes to its IP. Some of the trials and lawsuits they pulled of over the years against fans or smaller companies for copyright infringements are pretty ridiculous. To be honest, I never really expected modding tools for a game on GW's IP.

But as DavidtheDuke said, it doesn't mean we won't have unit mods, balancing mods and this sort of things. Just don't expect any map edits and huge conversions like Third Age Total War for Med 2.

[DavidtheDuke]

But as DavidtheDuke said, it doesn't mean we won't have unit mods, balancing mods and this sort of things. Just don't expect any map edits and huge conversions like Third Age Total War for Med 2.

Ever since CA introduced the TW3 engine we haven't see a actual full map conversion. We may never see a post-MTW2 full campaign map conversion mod. Sucks, but I haven't see one and we're 6/7 years post-Empire.

Is there any reason for that?
Or any statement since ETW that I may have missed why they do not hand out all the tools after the game is done and DLCs are all out, like it is the case in ETW, NTW, TWS2 or TWR2?

Well like frenchvinnie said, it's probably GW. I'd also wager it was an easy decision to not enable modding at all so they could focus solely on their own rendition of the game without opening it up unless it's coincidental in doing so. My grand hope is they 'accidentally' allow modders to re-add in seasons and family trees, but usually too much is changed from game to game wherein these functionalities get broken even if still in the code from previous games.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Ever since CA introduced the TW3 engine we haven't see a actual full map conversion. We may never see a post-MTW2 full campaign map conversion mod. Sucks, but I haven't see one and we're 6/7 years post-Empire.



Well like frenchvinnie said, it's probably GW. I'd also wager it was an easy decision to not enable modding at all so they could focus solely on their own rendition of the game without opening it up unless it's coincidental in doing so. My grand hope is they 'accidentally' allow modders to re-add in seasons and family trees, but usually too much is changed from game to game wherein these functionalities get broken even if still in the code from previous games.

You have not forgetton the Morning Sun mod for Shogun 2 which is now adding China?

[The Wandering Storyteller]

The blame and rage has to go to GW.

[DavidtheDuke]

You have not forgetton the Morning Sun mod for Shogun 2 which is now adding China?

Sure, a SINGLE mod. Also, isn't the BAI Shogun 2 unmoddable? It just seems so much harder to mod TW3 that's why we're seeing less, even if it is possible. It's just everything is either more complex or limited in specific ways that we're just not seeing as many. Maybe someone will crack the code and we'll see more, but I doubt it, as I've even see a CA dev talk about how there are AI pathfinding algorithms that are too difficult to jigger into a workable map-editing tool for the community.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Sure, a SINGLE mod. Also, isn't the BAI Shogun 2 unmoddable? It just seems so much harder to mod TW3 that's why we're seeing less, even if it is possible. It's just everything is either more complex or limited in specific ways that we're just not seeing as many. Maybe someone will crack the code and we'll see more, but I doubt it, as I've even see a CA dev talk about how there are AI pathfinding algorithms that are too difficult to jigger into a workable map-editing tool for the community.

Well if you actually look at this new Shogun 2 mod that has come out, this mod replaces the vanilla buildings with new ones. I think some other buildings have been added. There is an expanded Japan mod as well. That was never possible in NTW, RTW 2 or ETW.

One of the mistakes CA made was making their games complex. I am very well sure they want full conversions mod - but they failed to anticpaite how complex ETW would be in terms of modding. If you make the game complex - you will find very limited sucess.

Attila has the chance so to do this, even if restricted, it has good potential. Shame on CA for not releasing TED for Rome 2. I wonder why they don't update Rome 2 with the full assembly kit. They lied on that one. What makes me outraged is how they have access to playing the game and its all perfect, but when released it looks horrible. I mean they even had that alpha siege of Carthage in their studios!!!! We didn't get that.

I share your sentiment and how I wish there could be a return to the good old days. But maybe it will happen, but it won't happen in a long time. I wonder what's the point of recruiting Darren and Mitch when you make your games so complex that they are unmoddable? Plus the fact that they love to get rid of faction intros( when they add the heart and soul into the game).

They need to make a new engine and then things can change. Otherwise this situtation will go on forever. And you cannot have that when you have an acting 15 year modding base. Most games have only 2-4 years of modding( I may be wrong on that so correct me on that one) whereas total war has had years of modding. If they keep on doing this, eventually they will release modding tools, but after a long time. But its not easy to retain a 15 year based modding community. Either give them something or things will stall. And I don't think CA wants that. But they cannot keep assuming their players are happy with vanilla. They aren't. I'd rather play a modded game than vanilla. Sooner or later this will be coming into account and CA will have to do something about this.

So much for Rome 2 will be the most moddable game ever. And ted should have been released for Rome 2 -better battle maps forever.

Funnily enough the Age of Empires 2 game is so easy to mod and make custom campagins - now those were real modding! Plus the tools provided were excellent. I am going to get that game and download a whole load of mods once my exams are over.

But as you say it will take time.

[SanderP]

Well, for those blaming GW on this case, wouldn't that mean that it just comes in play for TW: Warhammer, not previous ones, like it is?
The only exception is Shogun 2, in some way.

[SanderP]

I don't believe an official statement has been made on who ultimately decided to ban modding from this game, but it is rather obvious it was GW's decision.

CA has always been rather mod-friendly, all things considered. They've always recognized the value and longevity modders can add to TW games. It would not make a lot of sense for CA to suddenly decide to withhold modding tools for this particular game.

However, Games Workshop is notorious for being excessively paranoid and aggressive when it comes to its IP. Some of the trials and lawsuits they pulled of over the years against fans or smaller companies for copyright infringements are pretty ridiculous. To be honest, I never really expected modding tools for a game on GW's IP.

But as DavidtheDuke said, it doesn't mean we won't have unit mods, balancing mods and this sort of things. Just don't expect any map edits and huge conversions like Third Age Total War for Med 2.

Yes, but as I just said, that can not be the case for previous titles since ETW, so ... not sure about CAs way to handle this at all, since they do not clearly answer on this topic, we can just assume I guess.

[DavidtheDuke]

Funnily enough the Age of Empires 2 game is so easy to mod and make custom campagins - now those were real modding! Plus the tools provided were excellent. I am going to get that game and download a whole load of mods once my exams are over.

But as you say it will take time.

Here here. If ever .

I still have a glimmer of hope MTW2 will still see even better modding days: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Memory-Editing

Well, for those blaming GW on this case, wouldn't that mean that it just comes in play for TW: Warhammer, not previous ones, like it is?
The only exception is Shogun 2, in some way.

Yep, they said they can't sponsor modding because this is a IP title, not something you can legally dink around with like history.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Well, for those blaming GW on this case, wouldn't that mean that it just comes in play for TW: Warhammer, not previous ones, like it is?
The only exception is Shogun 2, in some way.

What is the crux of your point?

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Here here. If ever .

I still have a glimmer of hope MTW2 will still see even better modding days: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Memory-Editing



Yep, they said they can't sponsor modding because this is a IP title, not something you can legally dink around with like history.

MTW2 will no doubt get more mods released. Its an excellent game that will keep mods coming. How far the med stuff on that link shows, it may take a while.

[SanderP]

What is the crux of your point?

If GW is the reason why Warhammer TW will have no modding tools, there is still ETW, NTW, Rome 2 and Attila left, also without map editing tools for ... what reason?

And then again, I guess the reasons are not only "GW" why we do not get any tools to edit or expand the map.

[Gryffon]

Well, for those blaming GW on this case, wouldn't that mean that it just comes in play for TW: Warhammer, not previous ones, like it is?
The only exception is Shogun 2, in some way.

What you don't understand is that empire/shogun2 etc are all supporting mods, they are just much much harder to mod than previous games. But warhammer can only be worse, as it won't get any easier, but on top of that they won't be releasing a SINGLE modding tool for the game. So it will probably be the least modable game in the TW franchise, and for all we know we could be unable to even mod units, let alone things like map/sounds/buildings...

[Gryffon]

If GW is the reason why Warhammer TW will have no modding tools, there is still ETW, NTW, Rome 2 and Attila left, also without map editing tools for ... what reason?

And then again, I guess the reasons are not only "GW" why we do not get any tools to edit or expand the map.

???
It's simple really, GW has nothing to do with CA not releasing map tools for previous games, this has to do with high cost for low (expected) benefit or just the fear of givng away all their secrets/allowing fans or unscrupulous companies to make their own TW games.

GW has to do with CA releasing ZERO modding tool for warhammer, which may result in ZERO simple unit mod (only simple stat mods if we make our own tools) and definitively no steam workshop.

[SanderP]

???
It's simple really, GW has nothing to do with CA not releasing map tools for previous games, this has to do with high cost for low (expected) benefit or just the fear of givng away all their secrets/allowing fans or unscrupulous companies to make their own TW games.

GW has to do with CA releasing ZERO modding tool for warhammer, which may result in ZERO simple unit mod (only simple stat mods if we make our own tools) and definitively no steam workshop.

Yes, as I said GW has nothing to do with previous titles, so the question must go deeper than "no tools is GW's fault" cause that could also not be the case for like Attila or Rome 2.

Your questionmarks do mean what question exactly?

[Wulfburk]

Being harder to mod is basically what everyone is complaining about all the newer total war games, and the fact that CA doesnt gives a and actually made it so because they wanted. I mean its years already and we dont have 1 single mod adding 1 single city and region for Empire and Napoleon. The ability to mod the map is one of the most important things when it comes to modding Total War.

[frenchyvinnie]

A lot of people here seem to think that CA consciously and maliciously withdrew modding tools from its games ever since Med2TW. Personally,I don't think that's the case.

I think that ever since the game was upgraded to the new game engine with ETW, its code became too complex to introduce modding tools. I'm no expert in that regard, I've modded other games in the past but never a TW game, so I don't have a clue how tinkering with these games' code works, but CA's explanation on the subject makes some sense. The devs have said in previous interviews that after developing the new engine, they realized it would make modding much more difficult for the community. CA was faced with the prospect of months of work with its entire dev team to release proper modding tools on the scale of what we knew in M2TW, and in that case, they simply decided it would not be worth it.
CA basically weighed the potential added value modding tools would give to their games versus the additional development costs, and the latter were too high for a studio like CA.

I agree that it sucks, that it's tough luck. I'm sure the devs are just as sad as we are that modding has been restricted since M2TW. They love their games just as much as we do, and they know mods have always contributed a lot to TW games. But in that case, it simply could not be done.