Phalanx formation

**hypaspist33** · June 06, 2015, 04:49 AM

it seems like its broken, enemies frontally charge into it and its no longer a phalanx. is it visually only or its also broken in its core?

**QuintusSertorius** · June 06, 2015, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by hypaspist33

it seems like its broken, enemies frontally charge into it and its no longer a phalanx. is it visually only or its also broken in its core?

Broken how? What version are you playing, and what are you observing, in more detail? Better yet, can you screenshot what you're seeing?

**hypaspist33** · June 06, 2015, 05:45 AM

regular phalanx unit was charged by regular non phalanx unit from the front. enemy unit just buypases spears as if they are made of paper. there is no stoping power that EB 1 had . even tho EB 1 phalanx was too strong , in a sense that you cannot break it from the front, here its completely weak. weaker than in rome 2 even. so much that its not even a phalanx. point of the phalanx is to face enemy frontally and do not let him penetrate wall of spears.sure sometimes someone will get into phalanx , but here its 'sometimes not everyone will get into phalanx " (enemy units).

you can easily see what i am talking about by playing a battle with 1 phalanx and 1 non phalanx unit and let ai charge you from the front

**z3n** · June 06, 2015, 06:03 AM

What version are you playing

**hypaspist33** · June 06, 2015, 06:08 AM

2.03

**hypaspist33** · June 06, 2015, 06:08 AM

2.03A (not 2.03), latest one

**z3n** · June 06, 2015, 06:24 AM

Hmm, I have not seen the issues you speak of in them being weak. And anyway we solved that as far as we could http://i.imgur.com/cdumEOm.jpg

What remains is an engine problem due to only 3 rows lowering their spears.

**Barnabas** · June 06, 2015, 07:37 AM

Should I use phalanxes in minimum rows of three?
Also I lack historical warfare knowledge a lot so although I'm a long time EB fan, I never had a chance to learn how to use units other than my own old RTW experience and experimentation (let's play videos I've seen didn't help much). What's the basic warfare tip for non shock infantry line formation? I think increasing the number of rows decreases the chance of a unit being overrun and make it more stable but it also makes the unit cover less ground which makes it flankable by other units..
As a general rule can it be said that spread the unit and increase the frontal coverage of it as long as it can sustain itself in terms of morale?

**General WVPM** · June 16, 2015, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Barnabas

Should I use phalanxes in minimum rows of three?
Also I lack historical warfare knowledge a lot so although I'm a long time EB fan, I never had a chance to learn how to use units other than my own old RTW experience and experimentation (let's play videos I've seen didn't help much). What's the basic warfare tip for non shock infantry line formation? I think increasing the number of rows decreases the chance of a unit being overrun and make it more stable but it also makes the unit cover less ground which makes it flankable by other units..
As a general rule can it be said that spread the unit and increase the frontal coverage of it as long as it can sustain itself in terms of morale?

I believe you have broken the terms of agreement then, as they require you to learn more history

Back to topic, from my experiences with Epirus (2.01) and Pergamon (2.03b) phalanxes are quite deadly, but they do break up if you don't have guard mode on, which makes me wonder why guard mode isn't enabled by default for phalanxes?

**QuintusSertorius** · June 16, 2015, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by General WVPM

I believe you have broken the terms of agreement then, as they require you to learn more history

Back to topic, from my experiences with Epirus (2.01) and Pergamon (2.03b) phalanxes are quite deadly, but they do break up if you don't have guard mode on, which makes me wonder why guard mode isn't enabled by default for phalanxes?

I don't know if, like skirmish mode, there's an option in the EDU to make it on by default.

**Wulfburk** · June 06, 2015, 12:43 PM

Phalanxes imo are one of the units that are working the best taking into account the engine limitations and the fact that they had to do a complex animation from the ground up. Seriously ive been playing tons of battles in 2.03a and i seriously think the way they are now can be held into the final 2.9 or whatever version of the mod.

**Sar1n** · June 06, 2015, 02:24 PM

Use guard mode if you want to block the enemy charge. They won't hurt much, but won't be penetrated either. Then, when enemy charge is exhausted, just turn guard mode off and watch them chew the enemy up.

If you are really in doubt about phalanx's ability to hold the line, use two shallow overlapping units. That will put up enough spears to block anything barring elephants.

**Thuycidides** · June 16, 2015, 12:06 PM

In my experience, the phalanx only blocks the enemy if it has been sitting still for a very long time. It takes ages for the men to finally lower their pikes horizontally. The annoying thing is when the AI charges its heavy cavalry straight into the phalanx and does significant damage!

**HaHawk** · June 16, 2015, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Thuycidides

In my experience, the phalanx only blocks the enemy if it has been sitting still for a very long time. It takes ages for the men to finally lower their pikes horizontally. The annoying thing is when the AI charges its heavy cavalry straight into the phalanx and does significant damage!

I agree that there is a bit of micromanaging involved in the use of phalanxes. However, this is due to how the M2TW engine. In fact, the use of pike units is much better in EBII than in vanilla M2TW.

The key is to use phalanxes in a slightly more conservative and defensive manner, as compared to say, swordsmen or cavalry (which are much more offensive and easy to maneuver). Once a phalanx is committed to battle, for example, it usually isn't a good idea to try and withdraw them.

As for keeping enemies at bay and maintaining a pike wall, this is actually fairly easy with a bit of practice. First, make sure the phalanx has Spear Wall mode on (on by default, hotkey 'J') and Guard Mode on (off by default, hotkey 'B'). When your phalanx is more or less in the position you want, hit BACKSPACE (halt). After another second or two, hit backspace again. This will cause the unit to lower its pikes and prepare for an approaching enemy.

When the enemy engages your phalanx unit, it will basically be unable to penetrate the spears. When you're ready, select the phalanx again and turn Guard Mode off (hotkey B). Without giving any other orders, your phalanx will begin to slowly advance into the enemy on its own, causing a high rate of casualties. However, after a while, their formation may suffer. In this case, turning guard mode back ON and hitting backspace (halt) will often help the unit reform.

I'm probably making it sound overly complicated. It basically boils down to "Guard Mode on, Backspace, Guard Mode off". I may end up making a short video to illustrate...

**QuintusSertorius** · June 17, 2015, 02:47 AM

Apparently, you can't make a unit be on Guard Mode by default. But z3n's done some tweaking of the formations file, which should hopefully help phalanxes behave that way.

Because the real issue here is the AI, as far as I'm concerned. The human player can put Guard Mode on, knowing it will improve their cohesion, but the AI won't.