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Thread: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

  1. #1
    Spajjder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Why? Well, let me answer with a question.

    Why does CA have to join the style Blizzard makes multiplayer games? If I wanna play an arcady RTS I'll play Blizzard’s games or something like LoL. Judging from the game footage, the units all move without inertia, they can turn immediately, just like in Starcraft, or snake for mobile phones for god’s sake. APM rules supreme here.
    Next up in CA Total War franchise is Warhammer Total War. I'm pretty sure that game will have same arcady set-up.

    Look, I don't blame CA for trying to go mainstream, they probably think these games will sell better - in Arena's case through a system of DLC and microtransactions - but just like Zenimax aspired for Elder Scrolls to go MMO to appeal for a more mainstream audience - as if that was ever needed - it alienates customers who are after the original unique experience.

    Just like TESO is a major flop because it tries to make a franchise into something it was never made to be and also because it suffers from severe competition from better and more established franchises (WoW), so is Arena a huge waste of time and money. It will never be as good as Starcraft or the like, so why would people play it (at least for long)? The core players, are the most important for a company like CA to survive in the long run, so why not focus on making games for them? They are loyal. The target audience for Total War Arena will soon move on to better games.

    The list of games game-developers have tried to make more mainstream thereby failing utterly includes, TESO, KOTOR Online or whatever the name was, Deadspace 3, Resident evil 5, Sim City, the new Thief, etc etc.

    In the end, CA is wasting its money and time on making games that will never be able to compete. Hopefully I'm wrong about both Arena and Warhammer, but judging from CAs recent track record, and especially the footage from TW Arena, CA is losing its way.
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  2. #2
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by Spajjder View Post
    Next up in CA Total War franchise is Warhammer Total War. I'm pretty sure that game will have same arcady set-up.

    Look, I don't blame CA for trying to go mainstream, they probably think these games will sell better - in Arena's case through a system of DLC and microtransactions - but just like Zenimax aspired for Elder Scrolls to go MMO to appeal for a more mainstream audience - as if that was ever needed - it alienates customers who are after the original unique experience.
    It wasn't needed in the case of the Elder Scrolls but when something gets big, the business men are going to move in and try to exploit that interest to the max, because their goals are $ performance focused. TW is (or was recently) gaining in popularity and SEGA/CA $imply want to take it to new $paces.

    So the only real questions here are whether this stuff drives away the long time, hard core fan and diminishes the core experience. I'm never going to play Arena™ or Warhammer™ and I'm very unhappy with the state of TW these days. But if CA/SEGA came out with a magnificent new historical PC game with a 64 bit new engine and mod support etc., I'd definitely put my anger aside and plunge right in.

    The real question is whether CA/SEGA cares that much about making those kinds of games anymore or whether they've essentially moved on. If I had to guess, I'd say they've moved on, and folks like you and I should start looking elsewhere.

  3. #3
    Spajjder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by Huberto View Post
    The real question is whether CA/SEGA cares that much about making those kinds of games anymore or whether they've essentially moved on. If I had to guess, I'd say they've moved on, and folks like you and I should start looking elsewhere.
    While I do think the formula has gone a bit stale, it is because they do not improve its many faults. Warhammer is more interesting than Arena because it has to bring in some new mechanics into the gameplay, perhaps some of them could be translated well into a historical setting, flying units for example.

    What I wonder is why no other companies can give Total War style games a try, that is, both strategy turnbased game together with real time battles. Is it under CA copyright or something?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    I think the main reason there's never been a real competitor or alternative to Total War is because it is a very clunky formula to try and make. Look at all the problems CA still has with the Total War series. Recurring bugs and general issues with their engines and AI and whatnot that they have been unable or unwilling to fix for almost a decade at this point. I'm not sure if its incompetence or just laziness, but it certainly isn't funding that CA lacks. So for a much smaller developer to try create a game that rivals Total War with much less funding...doesn't seem like it'd get that far off the ground. And ultimately PC exclusive strategy games are not where the money is. Few people are going to want to start developing for that niche in this day and age.

    There have been games that have tried, of course. There was an old Warhammer game like a decade or so ago that was essentially RTS with a campaign map. Very Total War-like. But it was irredeemably bad. Then there's the King Arthur series. Which are kind of alright games, not AAA by any means and the battles are nowhere near as good as in a TW game but they have their moments. Dawn of War to a lesser extent incorporated the campaign map idea, but it's still nothing like Total War. King Arthur is the closest thing to my knowledge. So when that's their only competition, it doesn't surprise me that CA has become complacent with their flagship series.

    At this point the endlessly recurring problems of TW are a feature unto themselves. The fact that most TW games are still great despite the issues says a lot about what CA could actually do if they put in that extra effort, or were at least given an appropriate amount of development time by SEGA. I doubt Warhammer will introduce anything terribly revolutionary to the series that CA will bother incorporating elsewhere, but I am hoping I'm wrong. At this point the only reason I'm sticking around is because I'm convinced Victoria: Total War or something similar is on the horizon. The gunplay of Fall of the Samurai gave me faith that CA probably can't screw that era up too badly, but I'm of course not holding my breath.

  5. #5
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by Spajjder View Post
    While I do think the formula has gone a bit stale, it is because they do not improve its many faults. Warhammer is more interesting than Arena because it has to bring in some new mechanics into the gameplay, perhaps some of them could be translated well into a historical setting, flying units for example.
    What I meant is that TW is interested in the next few years in WH fantasy, and that they are moving away from realism, rather than towards it. Flying units mean World War I and beyond. You cannot do WWI credibly on a campaign map and fight battles with army stacks of 20 units. Would need a new combat system, and probably a new engine to implement the wide ranging battles of the era there. I don't think CA would go to such lengths, but that doesn't mean they won't try to sell us a WWI era game.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    You can't really do 18th century or napoleonic warfare with 20 units either...

    Works fine for shogun, fine for medieval, a bit iffy for ancients could mabye work for renessance too. Not 18th or 19th century. I died a little when playing the historic battle of borodino in Napoleon, and you had an army of 1500 men....

  7. #7
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfreak View Post
    You can't really do 18th century or napoleonic warfare with 20 units either...

    Works fine for shogun, fine for medieval, a bit iffy for ancients could mabye work for renessance too. Not 18th or 19th century. I died a little when playing the historic battle of borodino in Napoleon, and you had an army of 1500 men....
    True. With Darthmod you could turn it up to 40 unit stacks and get a bit of the glory back. But yeah, they should change the system regardless, and it's absolutely necessary if they go back to that time period.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    CA has been so bad at single player over the last few years that they can't do much worse with this. They won't even have to program AI!

  9. #9
    Spajjder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    CA has been so bad at single player over the last few years that they can't do much worse with this. They won't even have to program AI!
    Hey, good point!
    But enemy ai or not, you still have to fight with the ai when you try to give your own units orders and they dont do them
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Totally agree. Total War should not begin to decay into a hellish nightmare of magicians, ogres, demons, goblins, dwarfs and whatevers. It's called decadence.
    The only dignified title for the next Total War series should be a majestic, epic, EMPIRE TOTAL WAR II covering all the way upto the year 1900 and including a map of the whole world !!!! (Including Sudan and General Gordon that is ) Thanks.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    I don't understand why people say CA doesn't care anymore. It took one year to patch medieval 2. They lied about every one of their games and of course the lies got bigger. Empire was left in a state. If TW was like cod where it's just a new environment and new skins then yea I'd agree but the fact that they're constantly innovating and adding features shows they do want to advance the franchise.

    I wouldn't get angry at CA for cutting content and providing less content in their dlcs (more campaign packs please). I'd get angry at those who reward them for it as modders will never create an Alexander the Great mod on a dlc that focuses on the east or a Vikings mod that focuses on the North Sea. It's the people who buy the dlcs who are limiting our play experience. CA are just catering to the demand.

    Im all for CA making a quick buck with this arcade style game. So long as they have a mode for their TW fans where it's less arcadey and more strategery then yea it should be good. If this is just going to be p2w and an arcade fest then it's not going to do any good for them in the long run. It'll just be another f2p game on the market. Come on CA be unique in this market.

  12. #12
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by riskymonk View Post
    Im all for CA making a quick buck with this arcade style game. So long as they have a mode for their TW fans where it's less arcadey and more strategery then yea it should be good.
    I was killing some time at work this week, so I watched the video of CA's launch event for Total War: Arena that was held in Cologne. It's a revelation, to say the least. I highly recommend watching.

    Here the marketing geniuses at CA (or SEGA?) have gathered many of those supposedly objective You Tube play through luminaries like Lionheart to participate in CA's objectively commercial venture. These enterprising You Tube "gamers" hold forth on a shiny game show studio set, wearing fancy headsets and resting on what I guess are gamer chairs?
    The emcee was as video-game-awful as you could ever imagine, oozing fake sincerity about a franchise he clearly knew nothing about, while shouting into his headset trying to pimp some e-sports enthusiasm into the flaccid spectacle.

    The actual Arena game looked terrible too, but I'll leave that for others to argue about.

    What I saw in that video was something that is rarely on display so clearly: the cheapening of an idea, something that once held so much imagination and promise, artistic beauty even, now becoming a sad, shiny, brittle husk of its former self, like the proverbial whore in a lumberjack's camp, cheapening everything and everyone that comes into contact with it.

    So yeah, you, whoever did this.
    Last edited by Huberto; June 13, 2015 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    In the end guys, its just a video game. Who cares about direction.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Ca should have taken Blizzard example in multiplayer A LONG TIME AGO I've been saying this for years.
    Their late crappy unfinished games would at least still be playable.
    With constant patches, balance, and a bit of love for their players. And maybe there would be still some people playing napoleon, shogun, or rome multiplayer.

    I wasted a lot of money on totally unplayable (for intelligent gamers) Rome 2. Only to find, that Total War Arena, being very arcadish for my taste, IT'S actually the only way to play their Rome 2 units, and its for free, got 200 hours of some fun from it already, what I got from Rome 2? 200 hours of desyncs and frustration.

    Good Job CA, better make this balanced small games, than try to make another unfinished product to sell trough merchandising.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    I agree I'ts not even what you would have expected some years earlier of a TW in battles. But this is closed alpha and works better that any other late TW game, maybe our old glorious days with Rome are over, and I certainly preffer TW Arena, than to pay for an unplayable game with no multiplayer at all.

  16. #16
    SharpEyed's Avatar Be Fair and Thankful!
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Well I can tell you one thing that CA cares much about testing for this game. Even there is a special mini-group of hand-picked players that does furthermore testing before the new things implemented to the game.

    If they would stay in Alpha stage this long (been more than 7 months I guess) for any of their games, most of the bugs/problems wouldn't even happen. Many company does that with "Early Access" stuff, so you really accept that you are kind of a tester that will find and report the possible bugs/problems.
    CA has started doing that too actually: TW Attila, but a bit late and only short time before the games are released.

    Anyway, I hope it goes to be better and they will always listen the community.
    Last edited by SharpEyed; June 23, 2015 at 12:55 AM.
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  17. #17
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    I agree, because I can't view my units fighting!

    No epic siege battles either!





















































  18. #18
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    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    it will be fine, just give it a time.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Quote Originally Posted by Spajjder View Post
    Why? Well, let me answer with a question.

    Why does CA have to join the style Blizzard makes multiplayer games? If I wanna play an arcady RTS I'll play Blizzard’s games or something like LoL. Judging from the game footage, the units all move without inertia, they can turn immediately, just like in Starcraft, or snake for mobile phones for god’s sake. APM rules supreme here.
    Next up in CA Total War franchise is Warhammer Total War. I'm pretty sure that game will have same arcady set-up.

    Look, I don't blame CA for trying to go mainstream, they probably think these games will sell better - in Arena's case through a system of DLC and microtransactions - but just like Zenimax aspired for Elder Scrolls to go MMO to appeal for a more mainstream audience - as if that was ever needed - it alienates customers who are after the original unique experience.

    Just like TESO is a major flop because it tries to make a franchise into something it was never made to be and also because it suffers from severe competition from better and more established franchises (WoW), so is Arena a huge waste of time and money. It will never be as good as Starcraft or the like, so why would people play it (at least for long)? The core players, are the most important for a company like CA to survive in the long run, so why not focus on making games for them? They are loyal. The target audience for Total War Arena will soon move on to better games.

    The list of games game-developers have tried to make more mainstream thereby failing utterly includes, TESO, KOTOR Online or whatever the name was, Deadspace 3, Resident evil 5, Sim City, the new Thief, etc etc.

    In the end, CA is wasting its money and time on making games that will never be able to compete. Hopefully I'm wrong about both Arena and Warhammer, but judging from CAs recent track record, and especially the footage from TW Arena, CA is losing its way.
    Why not? I'm personally looking forward to Warhammer TW. I played TW: ARENA and I liked it. The idea is certainly interesting but it requires thought to implement. I hope CA will make it right.

    I don't think TESO or KOTOR were failures. Both are great games and many thousands of players still play these games and enjoy them very much. How is it a failure?

    You know companies cannot exist without making money. They need sales, they need the playerbase. How is it bad if a company decides to make something which appeals to a large audience?
    CA has been successfully making Total War games for many years. And I'm sure they will continue to do so. They know better than any of us about how to run the company and which games to make and how. I wish them all the best.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Arena is going to hurt CA in the long run

    Just want to correct some things for the OP hope you don't mind.
    League of Legends is not a RTS, it is an MoBA. Starcraft is a classic style RTS with the traditional mechanics of base building, production of units, resource gathering, etc like AoE2 or whatever.
    Even though Total War calls itself an RTS it is a turn based campaign combined with RTT (Real Time Tactics).

    In Starcraft units have acceleration, turn rates and other little statistics which make each unit behave differently.

    Most notable (A rather famous one) example is this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...isk_Harassment

    For my personal enjoyment I'd rather play DoTA instead, it's a much better designed game compared to arena. The very concept of Arena with a 10v10, only three units to control, mechanics being like TW on crack with a bunch of buttons trying to be like an MoBA, poorly designed maps that could've been made better if there are more incentives to actually push forward like perhaps something like company of heroes where there is a victory point counter. The game is simply not my cup of tea as it tries to be something Total War can never be.
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