Aside from the oxybeles and scorpio, are we going to see the onager in the next release?

[Roma_Victrix]

In the present version of EB II there are only two siege artillery pieces available: the Roman scorpio and the Greek oxybeles, both ballista weapons shooting bolts. However, was the Roman stone-throwing catapult, the onager, dated far back enough to include within the EB time frame (i.e. before 14 AD or thereabouts)? Was the onager a later Roman contraption of the Principate and Imperial period, not the Republic? At the very least the distinction between an onager being a heavy stone thrower and scorpio as a bolt shooter seems to have been established by the 4th century AD.

Scaling the walls in sieges are a grisly and risky business; so is sacrificing a unit to slingers, archers, and enemy towers when you're marching a battering ram in a frontal assault on a gatehouse. It was massively rewarding when I was finally able to build some oxybeles in the game and shoot open the gates of enemy towns and cities from afar before marching my men in. However, games like Roma Surrectum II and even the first EB (if I recall correctly) had some sort of heavier artillery for managing stone walls. In Roma Surrectum II it was called the lithobolos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithobolos

Apparently, according to Wiki, the lithobolos was even used by Archimedes to defend the city of Syracuse from the Romans and lob stones at their besieging force. These were the largest ones available in Roma Surrectum II:



Total monsters!

I always loved the Roman siege artillery crew, too, so spiffy looking with their chain mail coats and those super shiny, polished, embossed bronze helmets.

[Dago Red]

Sieges are one of the most lacking, unfinished parts of the game. It needs attention badly. Siege weapons would help mix things up a lot, though they still won't fix the underlying AI turtling in the city center issue (which is what's killing the game the most).

[QuintusSertorius]

No plans that I've seen, to do anything further with siege engines. So I'm doubtful it'll be in the summer release.

[Roma_Victrix]

Sieges are one of the most lacking, unfinished parts of the game. It needs attention badly. Siege weapons would help mix things up a lot, though they still won't fix the underlying AI turtling in the city center issue (which is what's killing the game the most).

Sounds like you guys have your hands full.

No plans that I've seen, to do anything further with siege engines. So I'm doubtful it'll be in the summer release.

That's a shame, but I understand. I'm far more concerned with having more available units overall than having a more impressive roster of siege artillery. However, just keep in mind that the lithobolos at the very least falls within our EB time frame. Hence that Greek artillery piece should be a legitimate addition in a future release if not this one.

[Josh Mahurin]

There were plans to do it I believe but then we lost the wonderful talent that made the previously mentioned siege weapons and no one else stepped up to do them

[Dago Red]

I'm sure you have already to some extent, but you guys should just reach out to other mods, other teams in the historical gaming world (TWC is a great place to start) and import some assets to finish the game. Great talent exists all over the place and there's no reason not to have several siege engines at this point, even if they aren't 100% exactly to the specs that EB team would make them.

[_Tartaros_]

hi, tgc-mod have the lithobolos inside the eastern roman empire roster working. so this could be an easy sharing of data. i will ask anthonius in this.

[nazgool]

CanOmer made for us two models a while ago but we have to customize them for M2TW engine and i have to do new animations. Anyway it is in my to do list but not for the next release.
Here are some of his pics.

1-Talent Lithobolos Palintones


15 Mina Lithobolos

[Roma_Victrix]

CanOmer made for us two models a while ago but we have to customize them for M2TW engine and i have to do new animations. Anyway it is in my to do list but not for the next release.
Here are some of his pics.

1-Talent Lithobolos Palintones


15 Mina Lithobolos

It's a shame they won't be in the next release, but damn they look awesome!

[Dago Red]

Sweet! I have an idea for bogia then too.... perhaps he'd be interested in dropping some placeholders in to one of his submods since official will still be a while.

[z3n]

Interesting, do you find it more difficult to defeat them in the center? Siege testing is difficult as to test i must literally start a new game after deleting map rwm siege a city while building equipment then load and test the battle. I was satisfied with how it worked though.

[Dago Red]

I'm not sure what you mean -- sieges as they are now? I haven't updated my installation to the latest version with the improved campaign AI. Sieges in EB 2 are all in all pretty bad compared to other polished mods operating on M2TW as a base engine. I can't fathom how it's satisfying to fight an enemy who, as you point out, turle in the center, where they must be defeated in a long, slow, tedious grind. Every battle is a death match to the last man, totally unrealistic and just bad gameplay.

Apart from that, most everything works well as expected -- AI initially defends walls and can handle multiple siege ladders/rams at once. If the human player is attacking multiple points, there can sometimes be a fight for the walls that's more dynamic but even these end up with a fight in the center. The AI seems to constantly run everywhere and always manages to get units there no matter how many you have trying to engage them and the routing units can simply ghost through yours, then turn active again as soon as they hit the center. It would be amazing how aware the AI is of its need to defend the center, if it weren't also such a horrid grind.

[Roma_Victrix]

The biggest problem I've ever encountered with offensive sieges is attacking the gates of Roman large cities on either side of the front gate where my army is originally positioned. If I attack the gate right in front of me with a ram or shoot it down with oxybeles/scorpions, everything is fine. However, if you do the same with the gates flanking on opposite sides of the city (say, eastern and western gates if you're attacking from the south), then the units CONSISTENTLY get stuck at the opened gate and just walk into it over and over until the end of the battle. Sometimes they trickle in partly with not even the whole unit fighting, but even this takes ten, fifteen, sometimes twenty minutes if you're lucky. It's an obvious glitch that I hope has been fixed by now and apparently only exists in Roman large cities. Greek cities, as far as I know don't have this problem, and neither do Celtic minor/large cities or eastern ones for that matter.

[Dago Red]

It is a known issue, mentioned some time ago. And if I read correctly (somewhere), I think they're being taken out for the time being. There's also an issue where the defending side, human or AI, begins the map with their units outside the walls of the largest upgrades. As a human you can move your units before starting (I would hope), but I've seen the AI begin with their units outside their own walls... its fubar.

[Roma_Victrix]

Yeah, we can't be having that.

I think, however, that you're confusing the large cities with the huge cities. Huge cities are most certainly being removed from the settlement upgrade option, because there aren't even models for them. However, perhaps I'm wrong and you're right, perhaps what you're saying is true, that the EB II team is also getting rid of large cities! Is that true?! That would be odd only to have minor cities in the game. It would be quite a step down, really, and I would imagine the tech and building trees would suffer as a result, yes? Let alone the fact that sieges would get very repetitive without at least one other model to work with.

[QuintusSertorius]

I note that in a campaign you can only currently recruit the Oxybeles. There are no recruit_pool lines for the Scorpion anywhere. Which would explain why no one has found them during campaign play!

[HaHawk]

Is it possible to add the vanilla M2TW onager as a placeholder unit?

[QuintusSertorius]

Is it possible to add the vanilla M2TW onager as a placeholder unit?

Not for 2.02d. For the summer release, we have a proper solution.

[Roma_Victrix]

Not for 2.02d. For the summer release, we have a proper solution.

Well, that's good news.

[Roma_Victrix]

DUDE! YEAH! ALRIGHT! Bravo to Tux for creating and skinning the lithobolos siege engine for EB II! I just saw the update on the Twitter feed. https://twitter.com/ebteam

I am so excited now. Sieges are going to be badass and, if this artillery piece is in the hands of the enemy, a bit scarier now.