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Thread: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

  1. #1
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod v1.0
    using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem


    What does this mod do?

    - In your campaigns, when a war has started, it is too difficult or impossible to persuade AI countries to agree to a peace treaty?

    - As your nation expands, does diplomacy become pointless because the AI factions hate you, no matter what you do?

    - Did you find Standard campaign difficulty too easy, play on Hard or Very Hard and find that diplomacy becomes meaningless? As you expand, AI countries attack you no matter what diplomatic efforts you have made to maintain peace.

    taw researched how diplomacy works. There is a large -30 penalty to diplomatic relations when we take territory. That -30 penalty goes down very slowly at a rate of 1 per turn. taw described this as "the biggest failure of ETW diplomacy". Depending on which version you use, this simple mod either removes that penalty or causes it to decrease at a much higher rate (10 per turn, not 1 per turn). You also have the option of reducing the diplomatic penalty for going to war.

    How to install (and uninstall) this mod

    Download your preferred file. Unzip it (they were zipped with the free software 7zip). Copy and paste it in your C:/ProgramFiles(x86)/Steam/steamapps/common/Empire Total War/data folder. That's it - you do not need to activate the mod using a user.empire_script file.

    If you want to uninstall it, just remove the file from your data folder.

    Compatibility


    This mini-mod is probably not compatible with any AI mod (such as Bran's Empire Campaign AI or PikeStance's Campaign Overhaul for Imperial Splendour) or a mod which includes improved AI (such as Darthmod, Empire Realism, Empire Total Factions or Imperial Destroyer). If you are using an AI mod or a mod which includes improved AI, you probably don't need this mini-mod (the mod you are using will probably already fix the territorial expansion problem.) If anyone tries using this mini-mod with another mod and finds that it does or does not work, please let me know so that I can update this information for other players.

    Known and potential issues

    When playing a French campaign with the 'reasonable_diplomacy_remove' version of this mini-mod, from about 1756 my campaign was affected by the Ottoman turn bug. (If you do not know what the bug is, here's an explanation: when it happens, the Ottoman AI turn takes longer and longer, until the campaign becomes unplayable. The problem seems to be linked to the Ottoman Empire recruiting lots of tiny armies, especially when the Empire sends those armies across the land bridge near Istanbul). I don't know whether this mini-mod caused the problem - this bug is a known problem with Empire Total War and I could just have been unlucky. As a precaution, if you use this mini-mod (especially if you are using the 'more_reasonable_remove' version of this mini-mod, which has the strongest effect) I suggest sending a sloop to block the land bridge between Istanbul and leave it there. (That should help unless you are at war with the Ottomans - of course, if you are at war with the Ottoman Empire, you can prevent the Ottoman turn bug by capturing their regions.) If you are using this mini-mod, I would appreciate any feedback on whether you experienced the Ottoman turn bug or not. Alternatively (or additionally) you could use a version of the mini-mod which has a less powerful effect, such as the reasonable_diplomacy_reduce or the territorial_expansion_reduce versions.

    Credits

    Thanks to taw for the excellent research (if you rep anyone, please rep taw, not me), to erasmus777 for instructions on modding and modding tools and daniu for the latest Pack File Manager which was used to edit the entries in the diplomacy_attitudes_tables.

    Permissions

    If anyone would like to incorporate this into your mod using the information in this mini-mod, please do. If the links stop working, if anyone wants this mod and if I have not posted on this forum for a month, then anyone who has the mod has permission to re-upload it for others to use.

    Options

    There are four versions of this mod:-

    (1) reasonable_diplomacy_reduce: this mod changes the diplomatic penalty for going to war. In vanilla, war gives you an initial diplomatic penalty of -140 which increases over time to -200. With this mod, the initial diplomatic penalty is still -140, but instead of increasing, it decreases by 2 per turn. This mod also changes the territorial expansion penalty. You get a -30 diplomatic penalty for taking a territory. This penalty now reduces by 10 per turn, rather than 1 per turn (as in vanilla).

    (2) reasonable diplomacy_remove: this mod changes the diplomatic penalty for going to war, in the same way as version (1) above. This mod also removes the territorial expansion penalty, so there is no -30 diplomatic penalty for taking territory. (This version of the mini-mod has the strongest effect. If you consider using this version, I recommend reading the information above under the heading 'Known and potential issues'.)

    (3) territorial_expansion_reduce: this mod changes the territorial expansion penalty. You get a -30 diplomatic penalty for taking a territory. This penalty now reduces by 10 per turn, rather than 1 per turn (as in vanilla). This mod does not affect the diplomatic penalty for going to war.

    (4)
    territorial_expansion_remove: this mod removed the territorial expansion penalty. You do not get a -30 diplomatic penalty for taking a territory. This mod does not affect the diplomatic penalty for going to war.


    Download

    You can download the mod by selecting the links below. In case those links stop working, you can also download the mod from a mediafire folder.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Alwyn; August 08, 2015 at 04:32 AM.

  2. #2
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    My mods for Empire Total War

    Early American Revolution: Play as the United States, Grand Campaign, here

    Fourth Rate Frigate Unlock and Equal Navy, here

    Minor & Emergent Factions Unit Pack, here

    More challenging battles: Removed Gabionades, here

    More challenging battles: Stronger Garrisons, here
    also available: Stronger Garrisons with 8-inch Mortars, here

    More challenging battles: Navy Recruitment, here

    More challenging battles: Semi-Realistic Battles (with optional unit unlocker for minor and emergent factions), here

    More challenging, less predictable campaigns: an alternative history mod (using a modding technique by magusx), here

    More reasonable diplomacy (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem), here

    Nerfed Bomb Ketches, Rocket Ships and Steamships, here

    No city forts version of the vanilla startpos, here

    Removed Bomb Ketches, Rocket Ships and Steamships, here

    Simple Navy (with optional navy unlock), here

    These United Colonies: Lead the Thirteen Colonies through Queen Anne's War, the French and Indian War and the American Revolutionary War, here

    USS Essex and HMS Phoebe, here

    Weather mod, here

    New Colonial & Revolutionary Units Pack, inspired by a mod by Cipher*, here

    If you would like to create mods for Empire Total War, and if you have not made mods before, then I recommend visiting the Mods Workshop. There is a list of my 'how to' guides for new modders here.
    Last edited by Alwyn; April 28, 2018 at 12:17 PM.

  3. #3
    Captain Orange's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    So, this mod is likely for vanilla?

    Gotta give this a try. I'm so annoyed at the default (war-freak & sociopath) AI already.

  4. #4
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Yes, this mod is for vanilla, or anyone using a combination of small mods to produce the game-play which you prefer.

  5. #5

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    @ Alwyn great collection of mod`s after 2 campaigns I´havent discovered any issues ,i only have to suggest one data file instead of that many files maybe optional

  6. #6
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Thank you, Bavarian Grenadier. Yes - combining the many files in my These United Colonies mod into one file - or at least a smaller number of files - sounds like a good idea. (I don't have time to do that now; I would like to do that when I can.)
    Last edited by Alwyn; May 23, 2015 at 03:54 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    The reason I only play my campaigns at normal difficulty is exactly because of meaningless diplomacy and the AI persecuting the human player for the sake of artificial extra difficulty. Does your mod solve the problem of broken alliances without a reason, or having four or five factions at a time attacking you doesn't matter what? In other words, is it possible to play a hard campaign mode with diplomacy looking close to normal level?
    Last edited by AlexCouceiro; June 22, 2015 at 08:48 AM.
    AlexCouceiro is Caligula, son of Germanicus, Roman

  8. #8

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    well, if nations aren't attacking, would it be a hard campaign ?
    in other words: how can a campaign be hard if nations aren't attacking when you want it the least ?

    the other two means i can think of that imposes a difficulty, beside unwanted wars,
    is 1] lousy economy, and 2] never-ending resistance to occupation, which by itself is actually also an economy difficulty,
    since we are forced to garrison which drain ca$h.

    Is there any other way of imposing difficulty beside unwanted wars and economy i ask ?
    Last edited by poa; June 22, 2015 at 07:44 AM.
    My 6 2nd rates routed in horror from 1 brig + 1 5th rate on auto-resolve....

  9. #9

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Quote Originally Posted by poa View Post
    well, if nations aren't attacking, would it be a hard campaign ?
    in other words: how can a campaign be hard if nations aren't attacking when you want it the least ?

    the other two means i can think of that imposes a difficulty, beside unwanted wars,
    is 1] lousy economy, and 2] never-ending resistance to occupation, which by itself is actually also an economy difficulty,
    since we are forced to garrison which drain ca$h.

    Is there any other way of imposing difficulty beside unwanted wars and economy i ask ?
    I suppose there is. I will quote the mod developer for that sake:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    As your nation expands, does diplomacy become pointless because the AI factions hate you, no matter what you do?

    - Did you find Standard campaign difficulty too easy, play on Hard or Very Hard and find that diplomacy becomes meaningless? As you expand, AI countries attack you no matter what diplomatic efforts you have made to maintain peace..
    My post was simply asking if his mod will impose a harder campaign difficulty level without the AI cheating and persecuting the human player without a reason. And yes, there are other ways to increase difficulty, like giving more money to the AI, and yet allowing the AI to choose enemies without the human player in mind. Many mods that will increase campaign difficulty will follow that principle, including DarthMod for one.

    I didn't mean however by my previous post that the AI should not take advantage of any situation that is clearly in its favor. What I meant is I don't like playing in harder campaign difficulties because the AI will be irrationally oriented towards the human player and will therefore ruin reasonable diplomacy. I thought I had made myself clear.
    AlexCouceiro is Caligula, son of Germanicus, Roman

  10. #10

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    making nations inherently hostile to all other nations would indeed provide a more dynamic and unexpected campaign,
    all the minor factions should be set with the drive to expand too,
    but on "giving more money to AI", i suspect the player too get an extra dose of money for that to be implemented,
    and since the player will always be better at using resources, this method will only make the campaign easier
    My 6 2nd rates routed in horror from 1 brig + 1 5th rate on auto-resolve....

  11. #11

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Quote Originally Posted by poa View Post
    making nations inherently hostile to all other nations would indeed provide a more dynamic and unexpected campaign,
    all the minor factions should be set with the drive to expand too,
    but on "giving more money to AI", i suspect the player too get an extra dose of money for that to be implemented,
    and since the player will always be better at using resources, this method will only make the campaign easier
    It's not the AI aggressiveness I am talking about. I do expect the AI to be more aggressive at harder campaign difficulty levels, that's not my point at all.

    Anyway, I don't mean to be rude @Poa, so please don't get me wrong, but I won't extend this conversation. I am not even a modder, so this "philosophical" discussion about how the Empire TW AI should or should not be is kind of irrelevant. The reason I posted here was rhetorical. I just wanted to hear a bit more from the author about his mod before I give it a go, thus finding out whether or not the alterations he has made in his diplomacy mod will stop the AI from prioritizing the human player as a target.
    AlexCouceiro is Caligula, son of Germanicus, Roman

  12. #12

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    on that thing i agree, its getting old that GB always attack me, the player, on turn 4 to 8,
    if i have a coast.
    My 6 2nd rates routed in horror from 1 brig + 1 5th rate on auto-resolve....

  13. #13

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Quote Originally Posted by poa View Post
    on that thing i agree, its getting old that GB always attack me, the player, on turn 4 to 8,
    if i have a coast.
    I don't know for how long you've playing Empire, but it's well known that at harder campaign difficulty modes, the vanilla AI will go after the human player regardless of the odds, the circumstances or anything else. Some mods will remove this handicap and will thus make the AI see the human player as any other AI faction. In other words, if you are weak, the AI will naturally take advantage of it.

    In regard to the AI aggressiveness, some mods, like DarthMod, will turn aggressiveness up and, as a result, you will see factions quickly and aggressively expanding, which is nice. The downside is the AI will usually not defend its borders properly. Vanilla AI, on the other hand, is tuned down to be less aggressive. Factions will tend to expand cautiously and will stay put, usually stacking armies in the capital and other major cities.

    This diplomacy mod, as far as I could tell, will not change the AI aggressiveness. It will simply remove the factors that will make the AI predisposed against the human player, thus making diplomacy almost impossible.
    AlexCouceiro is Caligula, son of Germanicus, Roman

  14. #14
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCouceiro View Post
    The reason I only play my campaigns at normal difficulty is exactly because of meaningless diplomacy and the AI persecuting the human player for the sake of artificial extra difficulty. Does your mod solve the problem of broken alliances without a reason, or having four or five factions at a time attacking you doesn't matter what? In other words, is it possible to play a hard campaign mode with diplomacy looking close to normal level?
    Thank you for asking, I am sorry for taking several days to reply. I recognise the problem you have experienced. On Hard (and especially Very Hard) the AI factions tend to come after you, no matter what diplomatic approach you use. Yes, I have played Hard campaigns with this mod in which diplomacy felt more like diplomacy feels on Normal: sometimes the AI factions agree to my offers, sometimes they don't. In my first campaign with the 'territorial expansion remove' mod, I was happy to see France offer a peace treaty. I had taken France's North American territories, playing as the Thirteen Colonies, and France didn't seem likely to able to take them back any time soon, so a peace treaty at that point made sense. If I had been playing a Hard campaign in the same situation (without this mod), I would have expected France to refuse any peace treaty I offered them and for a pointless war with France to continue for some years.

    When I play on Normal campaign difficulty, the diplomacy is more reasonable but the AI factions seem weak (for example, it takes a very long time before they recruit their better units). When I play on Hard campaign difficulty, the AI factions recruit more like a human player would (I see better/elite units in their armies fairly early on) but diplomacy is somewhere between 'very difficult' and 'pointless', especially after I have taken a few regions.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCouceiro View Post
    I don't know for how long you've playing Empire, but it's well known that at harder campaign difficulty modes, the vanilla AI will go after the human player regardless of the odds, the circumstances or anything else. Some mods will remove this handicap and will thus make the AI see the human player as any other AI faction. In other words, if you are weak, the AI will naturally take advantage of it.

    In regard to the AI aggressiveness, some mods, like DarthMod, will turn aggressiveness up and, as a result, you will see factions quickly and aggressively expanding, which is nice. The downside is the AI will usually not defend its borders properly. Vanilla AI, on the other hand, is tuned down to be less aggressive. Factions will tend to expand cautiously and will stay put, usually stacking armies in the capital and other major cities.

    This diplomacy mod, as far as I could tell, will not change the AI aggressiveness. It will simply remove the factors that will make the AI predisposed against the human player, thus making diplomacy almost impossible.
    I agree with you about how the game AI behaves. I also like it when the AI factions try to expand, especially against each other as well as the player, and agree that it's a shame when this means they they don't defend their border properly. I believe you're right that this mod will not change AI aggressiveness, it takes out factors which tend to make diplomacy virtually pointless.

    poa, I agree with you that it would be good if minor factions tried to expand more and that, if minor factions had more money to do this, then this would tend to give the player more money as well.
    Last edited by Alwyn; June 27, 2015 at 08:01 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    thanks gonna try it out

  16. #16
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Is it possible to port NTW Diplomacy to ETW ? "Join wars" and "Break Alliances"are a must. If you can't organise a Coalition or order someone to stay out of it what diplomacy is that /etw vanilla/ ?!

  17. #17
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    It would be great if we had more diplomatic options in ETW. Unfortunately I don't know how to do that - if anyone does know, I'd like to find out.

  18. #18

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Could you make it compatible with Bran McBorn mod? It would be the definitive CAI upgrade

  19. #19
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    Thank you the idea gangster19 . I will experiment with this, to see what happens when both this mini-mod and Bran's Empire Campaign AI is used and whether this mod can be adjusted (if adjustments are needed) so that the two mods work together. It might be impossible to get the two mods working together, if this mod and Bran Mac Born's mod try to adjust the same database table.

  20. #20

    Default Re: More reasonable diplomacy mini-mod (using taw's research into the territorial expansion problem, v10, May 16, 2015)

    (Edited for adjustments and an example)

    Quick question - is there a setting which allows an adjustment to the War! index if an AI faction captures a region? One of the things I DO like about ETW diplomacy is that it's quite possible for asymmetric relationships to exist. (e.g. 1 side is friendly, the other unfriendly)

    Why I ask is hopefully the following adjustments would be possible to a faction's relationship index with another nation. (Assume 2 turns per year as per the vanilla game)


    • Existence of war - As stated in Alwyn's article (per Taw's research), an initial -140 is applied for war. If the the adjustment is +5 per turn, this will eventually zero out in 14 years. (7 years being the average length of conflicts in the 18th Century BTW, so this may lengthen wars a bit)
    • Enemy capturing territory - We know the capturing faction suffers from a -30 adjustment when capturing a region in its relationship with the region's original owning faction. This too should have a +5 per turn adjustment, requiring 3 years to eliminate the effect of capturing territory.
    • AI capturing territory - When capturing a region from another faction, the capturing faction should have a +40 adjustment to the relationship from its end. This will have the effect of the "winning" side in the war to be more likely to accept terms (if offered) or offer terms on its own. This should have a -5 per turn adjustment.
    • War Weariness / Patriotic Fervor in the faction's captital - Possibly +/-10 for each point of War Weariness or Patriotic Fervor. This will make winning factions less likely to pursue peace because it's a form of appeasing its own population. Similarly with War Weariness, pursuing peace now because a means of placating a faction's own population, as once the war is over, that negative appeal rating disappears.


    As a practical example, let's say Sweden and Russia are at war and currently in their 10th turn of war (9 completed). Russia has captured Ingria and has held it for 6 turns. Russia has captured Estonia/Livonia and held it for 3 turns. Sweden has captured Karelya and held it for 1 turn (just captured). We assume that battles won and lost have resulted in no points for war weariness or patriotic fervor. (hey, simplify it as much as possible, right?)

    Sweden's attitude towards Russia: -140 (war) + 9 * 5 (adjustment) - 2 * 30 (regions lost) + 5 * (3 + 6) (adjustment) + 40 (regions gained) = -70 in addition to other diplomacy adjustments
    Russia's attitude towards Sweden: -140 (war) + 9 * 5 (adjustment) - 30 (regions lost) + 2 * 40 (regions gained) - 5 * (3 + 6) (adjustment) = -90

    Which means that Sweden currently is more likely to offer/accept peace than Russia based solely on warfare adjustments.
    Last edited by Akarios; September 30, 2015 at 04:19 PM.

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