Europa Barbarorum 2.08e is released!

[QuintusSertorius]

Just to be completely clear, we do not deliberately make between-turn-processing-times slow. They are so because there's an awful lot of processing happening, which takes time. How long depends on the power of your machine (clock speed, mostly; M2TW is an old, single-core game so multiple cores are irrelevant).

So yes, when we talk about the "speed" of the game, we're talking exclusively about how fast AI factions grow, and in particular how long the Rebels last.

[delra]

I think that early conquest isn't that much of a problem, really. The problem is when rebel garrisons are dealt with and AI actions are open to blitz one another in the quickest and most ruthless fashion. Romans can wipe out Iberia in space of 10-15 turns, get rid of both enemy factions there and then just deal with occasional revolts every once in a while in the farthest parts, revolts that really do not damage them that much as they don't bring the faction in question back to life. You can see Seleucids taking the steppe at a pace of 2-3 camps a turn. Since AI sieges multiple places at once, and at the same time AI doesn't know to have high level of garrisons, they fall pretty easily to a stronger faction.

Sometimes when I land in Carthage with my legions and fight three units to conquer three cities because there's no proper AI army there... I think this game really needs garrison scripts. If Carthage was gifted a full flag of elite troops each time it's sieged, it'd be way more fun than taking an empty essentially undefended city in every campaign. You could even spawn some extra troops if aggressor is of specific (enemy culture) faction. So Roman invasion of Germania is mostly met with full flags of top troops and is a real grind.

In short, for the sake of gameplay and historical progress, we need garrison scripts to defend certain key AI cities. Because AI is just too dumb to do it by itself.

[Barnabas]

When I read my post above in which I tried to mention my desire to not have slower games, I see that the idea of turn waiting time being boring is not connected to the idea of any kind of player or AI faction progression which I believe resulted in you guys reading my post as if I wanted to argue against an idea of a game which RUNS slow

my previous linguisticly lacking logic:
there is nothing but waiting when you hit end turn button which takes time (real life time)
if the game is slow, you hit that button more without playing battles or moving armies or recruiting (as in intervals of real time between hitting that button)
leading to a more boring game than the current one (in my opinion which a priori considers how much time I want and am able to spend playing games)

[Boogie Knight]

I'm on a VERY old laptop which quite bizarrely has a better processor than you'd expect. Dual core (which of course doesn't matter in M2) and its clock speed seems to be up there with quite modern CPUs. My EBII turn times are longer than with any other mod, but we're still only talking about 40-60 seconds max. Of course, there's no question of me using anything but the lowest graphics settings but even on the lowest the models all look terrific. So you don't need a top-end machine to enjoy this mod.

As far as game pace goes, I like the idea of a slower game but I usually tend to turtle. Not always though, and if I wanted a large, rapid expansion early on I wouldn't want my chief opponents to be eleutheroi. I prefer to fight proper factions in general, especially in long, protracted wars. So if I were playing a faction in Europe, I wouldn't want to conquer several rebel provinces only to find myself against the borders of a proper faction which only has one region, take that, and have wiped them out. Personally I think the speed is fine as it is, but if it's to be slowed down, don't go overboard.

[Ribtickler]

Not got a clue why people are going on about turn speed( where did this topic come from?). I usually wait about 20 seconds(3.7gh) and have never had a problem with the speed of the game. EB 1.2 and a very old pc , now that was slow.

[parthian8]

Khevlan,

I agree. You can't please all the people all of the time.
I saw a couple of devs saying there had been a pretty overwhelming view from the players that AI faction expansion on 2.2 was too slow and that it created a game that was stagnant and boring. I don't know whether they acted on this view, or whether the in-house vibe was that expansion needed a hurry up.
I simply wanted to state my own personal view that I prefer a slower and more immersive game. I dislike being forced into early and unhistorical pre-emptive wars simply to prevent an AI faction turning into a juggernaut. I am not the world's policeman and I don't want to be punished by a hyperactive AI for trying to play in what I thought was the spirit of the project.

[khevlan]

Khevlan,

I agree. You can't please all the people all of the time.
I saw a couple of devs saying there had been a pretty overwhelming view from the players that AI faction expansion on 2.2 was too slow and that it created a game that was stagnant and boring. I don't know whether they acted on this view, or whether the in-house vibe was that expansion needed a hurry up.
I simply wanted to state my own personal view that I prefer a slower and more immersive game. I dislike being forced into early and unhistorical pre-emptive wars simply to prevent an AI faction turning into a juggernaut. I am not the world's policeman and I don't want to be punished by a hyperactive AI for trying to play in what I thought was the spirit of the project.

You are right it can't be easy to balance this stuff. I'm sure they'll take everyone's feedback on board.

[Hummer]

I will say that I like the rebel faction and would like to see it around a little longer than currently.

[delra]

Turn 400. Rome. "We will fight them in the steppe, we will fight them in the desert, we will fight them everywhere, because there's only one AI faction left on the other side of the map and it owns every-freaking-thing". :-D

I dare all of you blobbing deniers, play till 400 with ANY faction and tell this isn't your thought when looking at the campaign map.

[Nightsh4de]

Hello, just a quick report on my 2.04a campaign with the Getai, M/M which crashed terminally on turn 89 while processing Carthaginians.

This was quite a tough play actually, the first city I took was the coastal one on the black sea but made the mistake of not sacking it / exterminating because it was impossible to garrison, and 2 turns later the city turned itself over to the Bosphorans. I only just managed to defeat the rebels in my territory, take the city immediately to the south of my capital and take back Hirsia (? I think thats what its called). I now had my capital at about 1500 households, 2 cities with 800 households, devastated countrysides everywhere, a 40,000 Debt, and a negative income (I was forced to disband everything to go into positive income). So at that point it was just diplomacy and spywork for the next 50 turns.

I actually enjoyed the turmoil and uncertainty. Some battles had to be fought very carefully and that made things very exciting.

Other factions seemed to develop well, the Bosphorans went right across my northern flank but then got bogged down with a Sauromatae war. Boii and Lugiones were expanding slowly but almost not at all in my direction. The Makedones forced the Greeks down to the peloponnese after taking Athens, but stopped and then started taking rebel settlements near me. Pergamon was pushed northwards by the Ptolemies and made uncomfortable neighbors in Tylis, even daring to demand tribute (which I was forced to give because I had no armies!).

Things i noticed were that Dacian elite Skirmishers have missiles of only 7 compared to 13 for normal Komatai, though I notice this seems to be the rule for Skirmishers vs infantry missiles. Still, they are skirmishers at heart so shouldn´t they get more javelins and equal attack?

The Mercenary Gargokladioi only have a charge of 1, despite being described as the "stuff of nightmares" and basically being really ferocious. I´d probably say they deserve a better charge rating to reflect this.

Mezanai cavalry in pursuit run parallel to the fleeing enemy, catching nobody.

One rebel stack seemed to be out of place, they belong to the Mai Doi Kai Bessoi of Tylis but wandered into the north neighboring province, from where they had to be dislodged. They just seemed to be in the wrong place.

The rebels guarding Sarmiszegethusa, there is one immobile stack with an unnamed general in it.

Free upkeep due to government buildings did not seem to work at all in Buridava.

Shame the game crashed, but it was my fault for not regularly having a backup save. Oh well!!!

[QuintusSertorius]

Things i noticed were that Dacian elite Skirmishers have missiles of only 7 compared to 13 for normal Komatai, though I notice this seems to be the rule for Skirmishers vs infantry missiles. Still, they are skirmishers at heart so shouldn´t they get more javelins and equal attack?

Dacian Elite Skirmishers, despite their name, are not skirmishers. They're medium infantry with a precursor javelin.

The Mercenary Gargokladioi only have a charge of 1, despite being described as the "stuff of nightmares" and basically being really ferocious. I´d probably say they deserve a better charge rating to reflect this.

The unit card is wrong. It reports the charge value of the primary weapon, which in their case is their javelin, which actually has a charge value of 0. Their sword has a different value entirely, not reflected on the card.

If you want to find out a unit's actual stats, you have to find them in the EDU.

Mezanai cavalry in pursuit run parallel to the fleeing enemy, catching nobody.

Pathfinding, one for z3n.

One rebel stack seemed to be out of place, they belong to the Mai Doi Kai Bessoi of Tylis but wandered into the north neighboring province, from where they had to be dislodged. They just seemed to be in the wrong place.

As of a recent update, Rebels wander about, well beyond the provinces they're supposed to be protecting. That's being rectified.

The rebels guarding Sarmiszegethusa, there is one immobile stack with an unnamed general in it.

I may have given the wrong general the immobile trait, likely because they've been wrongly labelled as the garrison in the descr_strat.

Free upkeep due to government buildings did not seem to work at all in Buridava.

The only free upkeep government building the Getai have is the getai_confed. Can you even build that in Buridava?

[Nightsh4de]

The only free upkeep government building the Getai have is the getai_confed. Can you even build that in Buridava?

Thanks Quintus, As I passed the 2000 household mark and upgraded the city I did see a new option to build another government but cannot recall what it was and can´t check it (I`ve uninstalled M2TW competely for a fresh install of everything, to see if that helps with the fatal crashes, I´ve waited upto an hour for the turn to cycle without success!).

The problem is the default government you start with in Buridava does say 3 unit free upkeep. In fact I also built it in Sarmiszegethusa and still no free upkeep there either

I´ll try Getai again to see if I can spot more stuff to report, Keep up the good work

[delra]

Still, they are skirmishers at heart so shouldn´t they get more javelins and equal attack?

Maybe just increase unit sizes for all these Logades-like units?

[z3n]

If you read the game info message that appears on turn 2/3 it tells you that the reason some turns take awhile or seem to crash is due to the formation of hordes. If you wait all will be fine.

[adun12345]

Report on a ~130 turn playthrough as the Sweboz (2.04a, H/M).

Scripts and Completion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I understand that the first Sweboz reform is supposed to occur on Turn 128. I saw no indication of a reform - no new unit options. Is this a problem with the reform triggering? Or have the reformed units not yet been implemented?

Sweboz’s cultural conversion buildings appear to be broken. I built the “Lesser Swebic State” and the first level migration building in several provinces, but after ~80 turns the culture remained the same. This was unfortunate, as the migration system (with all the different tribes) is one of the more interesting and unique aspects of the Sweboz.

(FYI, there were some typos in the migration buildings. The first level migration building says that it “precludes” major migration. I’m pretty sure that it’s meant to say that it “precedes” major migration, since “precludes” means “prevents”).

Most of the new family members that were generated had no ethnic traits. I imagine this is part of the broader problem concerning character traits that will be dealt with in 2.1.

Balance and Interest

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So, I had initially played an Aedui campaign looking for an “infantry faction,” unlike my previous playthroughs as Baktria, Hayasdan, and Saka, and was surprised that the Aedui had such effective cavalry. After playing a while as the Aedui, I decided to give Sweboz a go. Overall, I enjoyed the campaign, though I thought it was weaker than several of the others I have played.

Sweboz is a real infantry faction. Their heavy infantry, especially their bodyguards, are really good. Enemy Germanic bodyguards would often fight to the last man without ever dropping below “Eager” moral. Charging enemies with a big block of spearman and battering straight through their lines was a fun change from the usual envelopment or cavalry-micro battles I have fought with other factions.

The biggest challenge in playing Sweboz, however, was not military but economic. On Turn 2, Sweboz’s starting province is devastated down to zero revenue by three or four large rebel armies on their borders. As a result, my treasury rapidly fell to around 25,000 in the red by turn ten; I was unable to recoup these early losses until close to turn 40. Fighting lots of rebel armies in a row without being able to reinforce was pretty epic for the first five or so turns; waiting thirty turns to build anything at all was a little less fun. My understanding is that these multiple rebel armies were added primarily to constrain the advance of the Sweboz AI in the early game; of course, the AI doesn’t have to worry about devastation. The team might want to reconsider how to balance Sweboz AI expansion without totally denying the Sweboz player resources in the early game. Alternatively, if this level of economic difficulty is intended, I would recommend classifying the Sweboz campaign as “Nigh-Impossible.”

Sweboz also felt less complete than several of the other factions I have played. As noted above, cultural conversion buildings and family member traits are not operating properly. Furthermore, many Sweboz buildings lack even basic descriptions - over half of their various tribes, and most of their regions remain to be written. The broken cultural conversion was especially detrimental, as this is how Sweboz recruits most of its units. Conceptually, I really like the idea of different tribal expansion unlocking different recruitment options.

Although the tribes have some variation in recruitment options, the differentiation is pretty minor - basically, whether you get to recruit a cavalry unit, or not. Although the Sweboz roster is pretty well-rounded at the moment, the tribal buildings would be much more interesting if they unlocked special recruitment options, like specific Marcomani or Cherusci units (perhaps as a longer-term goal?).

A final note on the tribes - Sweboz government and migration buildings are very expensive. Between the “Lesser Swebic State” (which is more expensive than the homeland), the preparatory migration building, and a single tribal building, the total cost of migrating to a new region is something on the lines of 20,000 mnai per region (over 50,000 if you’re migrating three tribes). This seems like a lot compared to the government and recruitment buildings of other factions. It’s especially difficult given how poor most of Germany is. Of course, my estimate of the value of these buildings may be colored by the fact that Swebic cultural conversion appears to be broken

General Progress

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I didn’t pay as much attention to the goings-on in the wider world this campaign as I have in previous ones. A few higher-level observations.

Things appeared pretty stable in the first hundred turns or so. The strangest behavior was that of the Romans, who appeared to get confused and didn’t expand beyond their starting settlements in the first hundred turns, leaving the Boii to take Cisalpine Gaul and the Carthaginians to take Magna Graeca. Around turn 100, however, the Boii attacked the Romans, which suddenly triggered their expansionary instincts in a rather comical fashion. The Romans quickly overran the Boii and the Carthaginians, even dispatching a random fleet and army to attack the Areuakoi in Spain.

Greece was a three-way conflict until around turn 80, when KH suddenly hulked out and chased both Macedon and Epirus into the Balkans. KH actually built the Congress in this game; I received notification around Turn 115.

The Seleucids struggled in the beginning, with the Ptolemies overrunning much of Syria and the Parthians a good area of the East. By Turn 100, though, the Gray Death was beginning to emerge again, with the Seleucids overrunning all of the Levant and forcing the Nabateans into a horde, while also making headway against Pergamon, Armenia, and Parthia simultaneously.

[QuintusSertorius]

I understand that the first Sweboz reform is supposed to occur on Turn 128. I saw no indication of a reform - no new unit options. Is this a problem with the reform triggering? Or have the reformed units not yet been implemented?

When it occurs is random, but you'll get a notification and new "late" units as a result.

Sweboz’s cultural conversion buildings appear to be broken. I built the “Lesser Swebic State” and the first level migration building in several provinces, but after ~80 turns the culture remained the same. This was unfortunate, as the migration system (with all the different tribes) is one of the more interesting and unique aspects of the Sweboz.

You have to keep upgrading migration buildings, each one caps at a successively higher number of rel_f conversion.

[adun12345]

You have to keep upgrading migration buildings, each one caps at a successively higher number of rel_f conversion.

What are the relevant caps? I had a settlement with a Swebic lesser state, two fully-upgraded tribal buildings (that I received when I conquered the settlement) and a third partially-upgraded tribal building (that I built) stuck at 47% for 80 turns. Do you need three fully-upgraded tribes to hit 50%? If so, that seems like a very steep requirement.

Also, if that is the case, the tooltips for the tribal building chains are terribly confusing; this seems like the sort of information that should be contained in their "Strategy" section. Currently, the description seems to imply that the player only gets cultural conversion from the first-level generic tribal building, while the specific "tribes" do not give conversion. Of course, the numbers that appear at the top of the building page change turn-by-turn, but occasionally the first-level migration buildings will say "Cultural Converstion 2%," while the second-level specific tribal buildings will say "Cultural Conversion 0%."

Just a few thoughts. In any case, thanks for the quick reply. Keep up the good work!

[parthian8]

AS H/M Turn 50.

This is so far a very enjoyable and challenging game.
AI faction progression first. Makedon has been a KH vassal state since turn 30. I wish make don didn't always get the short end of the stick, but it was good to see a client state notification for the first time in a while. Arevaci in Tolosa, but hasn't run wild, while Boii and Lougiones have done better the Sweboz, who are taking a while to get started. I intend to keep going to see if they are a late developer. Parthia has taken Asaak and Margaine from rebels and is allied with Bactria. It has its hands full with Saka. Takashila has just attacked Bactria, though the whole Gedrosia theatre as far as Persepolis
remains rebel.

Ptolemies offered me a truce around turn 20 and have been building up their armies in Anatolia since. They took Tarsos from rebels and have kept it green with a medium size stack. My medium size stack was ejected by a rebellion early in the game. They do seem unwilling to move the stack though, suggesting it needs a sizeable garrison still.
Then they besieged my ally Pergamon in 260 and I went to Pergamon's aid, lifting the siege. The Pergamese army AI behaved almost like a human player in the battle. It march across the field (it was a mile or so from the action and took over 10 minutes to cover the ground) but delivered a perfectly co-ordinated rear attack. The Ptolemies concentrated on trying to break my smaller army before detaching units to hold up the army of Pergamon. When the game was up, the units attacking me broke and tried to save themselves rather than waiting to be surrounded. Very good.
They besieged Sardis and Ipsos in retaliation. I saved serve on these, my advantage in Makedonian phalangists evening the numerical advantage they enjoyed. These had to be raised at the last minute and I also had to buy in some Kretan archers. I have just taken Hali and and looking rather wearily at Ephesus.

Money still too tight to mention. The lands east of Sousa are pretty wild and the rebel stacks are squatting across the main highways, causing about 50% trade income loss to the eastern cities through devastation. My garrisons are having to live with this annoyance, as they would get wiped out if they ventured into the hinterlands. I have increased my sea and river trade to compensate. This is the type of political decision to abate a problem I can't solve militarily that I really enjoy having to make. One of the stacks besieged Arbela (?) and I really did have to scrape the barrel to put together an army that just got there in time and won the day by the very skin of its teeth after some real hard pounding in which the AI light cavalry screened its own armies flanks very diligently while charging, breaking off and repeatedly harrying the spearman on my flanks.
I am a bit surprised the large Ptolemy stack in the Levant has sight tight. The Nabateans are sitting to our flank like Lord Stanley, and perhaps they are, like me wary of a situation where we cut each other's throats and get eaten up. I can't get an alliance with the Nabateans, but the Ptolemies I see are faring no better (and not for want of trying.)
Right now I simply am not in a position to report on how the colony and Government systems work because that is all stuff for more stable times later in the game. It is something to look forward too.

A very good game.

[Samson224]

Last remarks from my 2.04a Pritanoi campaign. (Maps & events)

-Restless rebels left Segesta undefended. The town stayed that way about 20 turns, until the Romans captured it.

-Ptolemaioi gave up their regions in Egypt without much resistance. At the same time, they are heavily expanding elsewhere. This also happened in my last campaign.

-The few brigand spawns in Britain consisted of only skirmishers (mostly slingers). Perhaps there could be some Toutanakoi in the brigand mix. In my short test with Romans, there was 2 principes unit brigand army. I think principes is a bit weird unit for brigands. Perhaps a review of the pools is in order after the autumn release?

-Some civil revolts spawn odd unit mixes. I've lately seen many revolts, where all the spawning units were cavalry (7-9 units). Not perhaps the most likely peasant revolt scenario, eh?

-2 d/u/v, 1 d/u/l and 1 s/u/l FM's. They all fared OK (I didn't sideline any of them), but I haven't yet had a new FM with even 2 positive qualities.

[Tactics Mayers]

May I ask what is the animation speed of Europa Barbarorum 2 compared with Vanilla?