Thread: Europa Barbarorum 2.08e is released!

  1. #2141

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    My issue with this is, well, there was indeed a possibility to project power over India. Hence the Bactrian conquest of the northwest, the rise of the Indo-Greeks, the Indo-Saka and Indo-Parthians and final establishment of the Kushan Empire. The Seleucids interacted with the Mauryans as well (e.g. in the form of the sending of an embassy in the form of Megasthenes) and Ashoka supposedly sent Buddhist missionaries to various courts and lands to the west. Simply put, the northwest of India and Pakistan (and India in general) were important parts the Hellenistic world (not in terms of being culturally Hellenistic, but in terms of being an important area to interact with). Cutting out Taksashila would make this interaction almost impossible to simulate.
    And those interactions like monks and ambassadors coming, cultural influence etc are presented in the mod? And for that we really need map going into Indian plains? Why stop there...it is not natural border, totally artificial where edge of the map is now...India is much more than that north west corner (culturally, even racially if you will)..or influences of Indochina on India..or China (on India, or especially migrations and movements of nomad factions in central Asia..)...why not include whole old world than?

    There is no batter and more natural border than rigid mountains of Afghanistan and desert of Baluchistan.Map must end somewhere, and for that, what is better and more realistic than very good natural border.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    My understanding is that the former religion slots represent more of a 'socio-political organisation' than a culture, which means the question ought to be asked whether the Tracian and Illyrian tribes had a truly distinct organisation from e.g. the Gauls. I can't really comment on this, except that the Odrysian Kingdom seems to have had a elite or royal household cavalry class not too dissimilar from the pre-Hellenistic Macedonian hetairoi (this is speaking before the Macedonian conquest and Keltoi incursions in Thrace, afterwards the region becomes a lot more muddled). One can argue about the similarity, but this doesn't seem to me too different from the Gallic model of nobles/kings and their retainers dominating society.

    As noted by Jervaj, removing eastern imperial messes with the reforms for a lot of factions and in that sense would make it difficult to represent the socio-political changes these peoples and nations went through (or might have gone through, had history been different), but I could perhaps see Taksashila starting as eastern imperial with the removal of the Indian tribal states 'religion'.
    Ilirio-tracian was not even real suggestion. Could be something else..Indian faction should go out...it does not belong to the mod, politically, military, geographically, and it saves one more culture and factions spot. Imperian may stay in I never said it is that bad..but Indian...



    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    I believe one British province will be removed in future versions, though I don't know on which one the decision has fallen. I can't really comment on anything else here, but I will note that it might be considered rude to simply demand change. Presenting a case or argument is fine, but sticking to the etiquette of a civilized debate makes it look more reasonable in my opinion(, though I will confess not always having stuck to these rules in the past myself).

    My 2 cents on all of this.
    Even with one British province out, it is still much, considering importance of the region in time frame and size .

    My remarks about borders of Illyrian provinces were not rude at all. Simply fact for anybody knowing anything about region. Even now days there is strong difference with Dinaric (boat coastal and further inland) and Panonaina part, plus it was physically separated by very impassable terrain. Simple two different geographical regions , not even to go into the culture, economy etc etc



    With Indian faction out, we will have 3 factions spots. If mister Pyrus is out(as he indeed was killed) Epirus should go out too, and we ill not have those broken game with Macedonia ...


    My suggestion is to use two spots, for 2 "Rebel factions". One can represent strong Greek cities which were somewhat friendly and related to each-other anyway (let say Syrakuse, one province of Epirus (should not have two at all), Massalia and Synope..and maybe one, or two more. They would be separated enough from each other in order to prevent some kind of empire AI tendency). Another one could be European barbarian with strategically placed few provinces over the map, where we need bit more buffer.

    And I think we will have much more balanced and more historically accurate game .
    Last edited by 4th Regiment; August 06, 2015 at 12:35 PM.
    Tribal Total War

  2. #2142

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    ^ Well im just glad none of your suggestions will come true. (taking out taksashila and epeiros)
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  3. #2143

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Yeah, the camps thing is pretty unavoidable. There's basically invisible walls with holes in them in the corners. If the AI is besieging you, they'll actually use their ram. Eventually you get a feel for where the pathfinding issues are. Just pretend they put up spiked pits or stuck spears in the ground in anticipation of your attack.

    I've often thought that opening up a culture slot by making Indians Forest Tribal (given how unlikely it'll be to have Germans migrate to India, I don't anticipate a problem there). How to use the extra slot, well that's a problem. Add an Illyrian-Thracian-Getae slot? An Iberian slot? Punic? Italian tribal? I'd probably pick Iberian. But it's not a huge deal, in my opinion. There's only so much you can do with the engine. Like the Massilia kerfluffle, no one is really disagreeing all that much on the history, just on how the game represents a settlement vs a region.

    What I'd like to know is how to build farms in a camp/small town! I took Asanka as the Boii noting it was 45% Euro tribal, destroyed the elite herds there and... shoot, no farms. Oh well. (Actually, the problem here is probably that only allied government is possible, no factional.)

  4. #2144

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Punic isnt a good choice as it wouldnt affect that many palces. It would be cool if we had the faction slots to spare.

    The best options would be either something like celitberian as you said like you said so they cant exapnd as easily outside it or something to make a break down in the core of europe, so theres some differentiation either north/south or west/east

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  5. #2145

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Also what are peoples opinions on the subject, is it a unit specific problem? I personally find Pantodapoi painfully hard to charge which while completely and utterly realistic can be aggravating when used to a playing a game. (By the way I always give them a running start about 15 meters or so ahead of where there charge would start)
    Although I have quite limited experience, I'd say it's more a unit specific problem. I haven't noticed any bad charges with Pritanoi units (2.04a), but in the Saba campaign (2.03k) I had several broken charges with the Quadub.

    Just noticed something odd, the wall towers aren't shooting my attacking units. Spy got the gates opened. Bug? I recall they were shooting in previous versions.

    Edit. No need to answer about the archer towers anymore. Everything is OK, this one just haven't played enough M2TW to know that there must be enemy unit near the towers for them to attack...
    Last edited by Samson224; August 06, 2015 at 03:38 PM.

  6. #2146

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Z3n, above.

    I quite like things that are a bit human. If I wasn't wearing a lot of armour and someone yelled "charge at those large hairy fellows over there!"....I'd think, "I'll do you a deal, and shuffle warily towards those hairy blokes over there while I see how those keen lads at the front get on."
    Who in their right mind wouldn't?

  7. #2147

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post
    What I'd like to know is how to build farms in a camp/small town! I took Asanka as the Boii noting it was 45% Euro tribal, destroyed the elite herds there and... shoot, no farms. Oh well. (Actually, the problem here is probably that only allied government is possible, no factional.)
    Asanka cannot be converted into a city. Which I always thought quite strange, given how the province description describes the establishment of permanent settlements and hill forts during the game's time period.

    Here's a slightly outdated map showing all the regions with the mixed resource, which allows conversion from a camp to a city:



    It should still be accurate for the current version. Though I think Sala (the westernmost camp in North Africa) might be bugged for Numidia. I don't know if it's been fixed yet.

    Credit for the map goes to Gigantus.

  8. #2148

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    A.S. campaign 2.04a 81 turns. Very different, iv managed to conquer 3 settlements in 81 turns. One a camp,one tarsos and the other rebelled!(again, was mine originally). I have the feeling I havnt really started, yet. Im on 15,000 min profit and 13000 corruption per turn.But it can go really fast. My main worry is that I feel im being left behind(historically sound) but with the potential to compete with the big boys. Make no mistake, I have felt like the under dog from around turn 2. But its a really good faction to play if you like to think long term.
    No faction has been destroyed, yet. With Pergamon, Pontos and hayasdan having impressive kingdoms. Macedonia is reduced to korinth while the has been one horde event(massyllians).
    All in all, becoming my favourite faction.

  9. #2149
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    And those interactions like monks and ambassadors coming, cultural influence etc are presented in the mod? And for that we really need map going into Indian plains? Why stop there...it is not natural border, totally artificial where edge of the map is now...India is much more than that north west corner (culturally, even racially if you will)..or influences of Indochina on India..or China (on India, or especially migrations and movements of nomad factions in central Asia..)...why not include whole old world than?

    There is no batter and more natural border than rigid mountains of Afghanistan and desert of Baluchistan.Map must end somewhere, and for that, what is better and more realistic than very good natural border.
    The in-game equivalent of the sending of an embassy is the sending of a diplomat and keeping them in a certain area for longer periods of time. But diplomatic and cultural interactions are not the main reason for the map to extend east this far. Let’s get into the meat of Total War, shall we? Military conflict and territorial extension.

    • First of the Achaemenid empire: Gandhara and Hinduš are attested as Achaemenid satrapies. The south-eastern border of the empire is supposed to have been formed by the Indus river , though it’s possible either or both of these districts may have extended some distance on the far side of the river as well.
    • Next, onto Alexander. He campaigned in the area mentioned above and famously fought the battle of the Hydaspes River in said area after crossing the Indus. This campaign included the submission of the ruler of Taxila at the time.
    • Next come the Mauryans and their conflict with the Seleucids. Though it’s uncertain whether Chandragupta or Seleukos won in the end, Chandragupta gained a large territorial expansion west of the Indus in exchange for 500 war elephants. We then skip another century or so, until a descendant of Seleukos arrives on the scene. Antiochos III crossed the Hindu Kush into during his anabasis and ‘renewed his friendship with Sophagasenus the king of the Indians;’ (Pol. His. 11.34)
    • In the second century B.C. we find the Bactrians on the rise as ‘The Greeks who caused Bactria to revolt grew so powerful on account of the fertility of the country that they became masters, not only of Ariana, but also of India, as Apollodorus of Artemita says: and more tribes were subdued by them than by Alexander—by Menander in particular (at least if he actually crossed the Hypanis towards the east and advanced as far as the Imaüs), for some were subdued by him personally and others by Demetrius, the son of Euthydemus the king of the Bactrians;’ (Strab. 11.11.1)
    • Sometime after this the Greeks lost control over Bactria itself due to nomadic incursions from the north, but Indo-Greek kings continued to rule over the lands south of the Hindu Kush for perhaps another 150 years. During this period, however, they increasingly had to deal with pressure from various nomadic peoples in the form of the Indo-Parthians, Indo-Saka and finally the Kushans-Yuezhi, until the final Indo-Greek ruler died or was dethroned around the beginning of the common era.


    My point here is that the mountain ranges and deserts separating modern-day Afghanistan and Pakistan may have presented a formidable obstacle, but certainly didn’t stop invaders from the north-west and west. There is indeed a natural border there, but it’s a border that’s been crossed all too regularly. The area you suggest cutting from the game served as the heartland for at least three (offshoots of) the factions included in EB II at the moment and simply drawing a line which prevents them from doing so or interacting with this area in any way would be rather ahistorical in my opinion. India (or what was commonly by the Greeks and Romans seen as ‘India’) was not some far-off area on the periphery, but as a place regularly interacted with by several peoples and dynasties to the west. Of course a line has to be drawn somewhere, but for the most part the lands to the west of the Indus seems to have been the farthest the invaders from the west got (in which they made a lasting impression). In that sense the current border isn't drawn all that arbitrarily in my opinion.

    Besides, if we only consider natural borders to be respectable borders, the southern and northern sides of the map are going to need some major redrawing as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Ilirio-tracian was not even real suggestion. Could be something else..Indian faction should go out...it does not belong to the mod, politically, military, geographically, and it saves one more culture and factions spot. Imperian may stay in I never said it is that bad..but Indian...
    Fair enough, I assumed Traco-Illyrian was a real suggestion. As for the Indian faction going out, I believe I've already given some arguments for why I believe it should stay in the mod, not in the least to represent the power the Mauryans projected from their heartland off the map (the Bactrians seem to have invaded only after the last Mauryan emperor was assassinated, though it’s possible they did so as allies of the Mauryans).

    As I said before I can see the Indian Tribal religion being removed with Taksashila starting as Eastern Imperial and having to contend with Forest Tribalism, but so far I haven’t really seen a non-culture replacement suggestion for the slot. Are there any viable and markedly different socio-political options we haven’t discussed so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Even with one British province out, it is still much, considering importance of the region in time frame and size .

    My remarks about borders of Illyrian provinces were not rude at all. Simply fact for anybody knowing anything about region. Even now days there is strong difference with Dinaric (boat coastal and further inland) and Panonaina part, plus it was physically separated by very impassable terrain. Simple two different geographical regions , not even to go into the culture, economy etc etc
    I didn't say your suggestion was rude in the slightest, I said (or meant to say) that your wording might be considered rude by some. Simply demanding something be changed is, at least in my opinion, not the way to go forward. Present your argument as to why the current borders are wrong, show that the inhabitants of various regions were culturally and historically different enough from one another to merit not being lumped together in one province in-game. Convince others (including the devs) that this is a necessary change and you may accomplish what you seek.

    As to the map changes planned currently, I seem to recall there should be more than just the British one I mentioned above, including one in Asia Minor, but if the devs would be willing to shine some light on the planned changes so we can all be on the same page, I’d be grateful.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    With Indian faction out, we will have 3 factions spots. If mister Pyrus is out(as he indeed was killed) Epirus should go out too, and we ill not have those broken game with Macedonia ...


    My suggestion is to use two spots, for 2 "Rebel factions". One can represent strong Greek cities which were somewhat friendly and related to each-other anyway (let say Syrakuse, one province of Epirus (should not have two at all), Massalia and Synope..and maybe one, or two more. They would be separated enough from each other in order to prevent some kind of empire AI tendency). Another one could be European barbarian with strategically placed few provinces over the map, where we need bit more buffer.

    And I think we will have much more balanced and more historically accurate game .
    This is basically the approach RTR VII took in their campaign scenario and whilst there’s nothing wrong with the approach in and off itself, I think it goes against the philosophy of EB. One purpose of the mod was to show that there was no unified ‘Greek cities’ faction or ‘barbarian’ empire sprawling the area we now call Europe. There were various peoples and nations contending for power and lumping them together in one faction is in my opinion doing them a disservice in representing their uniqueness and historical situation. Why would, for example, the (Thraco-Illyrian, with a possible indigenous influence) Dardanians in the Balkans have a unified military and diplomacy with the (Germano-Gallic, possibly even completely unique) Belgae in northern Gaul? The two peoples (or people groups) were culturally distinct from one another and may not have even been in contact with one another. Not to mention new players may even get the impression that these peoples are basically interchangeable and unimportant labels on a fundamentally homogenous ‘barbarian’ mass. At least with the current Eleutheroi (Free Peoples) label there is no such stigma, as the faction includes African nations, Greek city-states and others without distinction. The same goes for the Greeks, where there’s also the question as to how influential the city-states were in their hinterlands and how well a ‘Greek’ faction would represent the local population as a whole.

    As IIRC QuitusSertorius mentioned some pages back, Macedonia really was in a dire situation with Pyrrhus at their gates. It might be considered somewhat of a miracle that the Antigonid dynasty managed to remain in control of Macedonia: had Pyrrhus not died fighting in Argos it’s very likely the Antigonid dynasty would have been extinguished earlier than it historically was. In this sense Macedonia (rather: the Antigonid dynasty) falling quite early isn't all that strange given their start. Taking Pyrrhus and with him Epirus out of the mod basically accomplishes the same thing: one faction ending to ensure the survival of another. (I'm not really sure how to word this, basically you're forcing one scenario regarding Macedonia by eliminating the Epirote issue altogether, when it was a significant issue historically

    I think the fundamental question here is what is more important: game-play or historicity. From what I wrote above I believe it’s quite obvious I’ll remain firmly in the historicity camp.

    Finally, I’d like to mention that your changes would require the deleting of work made by a dedicated team of people for a mod which has been in development for about eight years by now and which still isn't finished. Given the time and effort people have put into this mod for what is essentially no return, I’d only consider the removing of stuff a good idea if it’s absolutely necessary. At the moment, I believe that is not the case.
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; August 06, 2015 at 04:00 PM.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  10. #2150

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Some thoughts on an Aedui campaign (2.04 H/M, ~100 turns):

    Scripts & Completion

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Not much to say here, since the real reform scripts do not appear to be implemented yet. There are some indications in some of the buildings about armor upgrades and reforms; I was able to receive armor upgrades for several of my units. Some of the units also referenced a "2nd Armor Reform" or something like that, though I couldn't figure out through the building browser how to unlock it. As a side note, I was unable to tell whether the armor reforms upgraded the appearance of the units on the battlefield. Do armor upgraded Bataroi appear with heavier armor on the battlefield?

    One quick question - I was unable to locate the "Industry" line in any of the building browsers for my settlements. Bibracte and Gergovia appear to have "Small Local Industry" from the start, but I cannot build any further industry in my other territories. This struck me as especially odd, because a number of other buildings (like the River Ports) specifically referenced increased trade goods due to local industry. Are the Aedui supposed to rely only on starting industry buildings? Are the industry lines supposed to be unlocked later through some sort of reform that is not yet implemented?

    A second quick question - the description of the "Confederation" government type indicates that each Confederation will lower the Authority of the faction leader. I thought this sounded like a very interesting game mechanic, and sought to plan out which tribes I would allow into my Confederation, and which I would leave as Protectorates or Allies. However, the number of Confederations I built had no noticeable effect on the Authority of my faction leader: he got to about 7 Authority while I had only 2 Confederations, and remained there while I built three more. Are Confederations still supposed to reduce the authority of the faction leader?


    Balance and Interest

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Decided to play the Aedui because I'd played a bunch of eastern cavalry factions (Saka, Baktria, Hayasdan) and wanted to try out a western faction that was more focused on infantry. Turns out the joke's on me - the Aedui have quite good heavy cavalry, and I win most of my battles with my generals' bodyguards (though usually with some infantry support). Their roster seems pretty well-balanced in terms of skirmishers, heavy infantry, and cavalry. Battles were fun, though mostly of the hammer-and-anvil variety.

    Difficulty-wise, I also thought this campaign was much harder than Hayasdan or Baktria (though perhaps not quite as hard as Saka). The numerous rebel armies and weak starting financial position make it a real struggle to expand effectively at first, especially as each new territory you conquer is immediately desolated by the surrounding rebel armies. I kept looking for an opportunity to come up for air and build some infrastructure, but instead I campaigned almost constantly for 100 turns, with every new conquest leading me on to further rebel enemies. As a result, though, I didn't really wage many wars against other factions in my first hundred turns. I tried to keep the peace with the Arverni, but ultimately turned on them when their armies pushed into Iberia, seizing most of the Gallic territories. My incursions into northern Italy also brought me into brief conflict with the Romans. Overall, though, I felt like the opening was suitably challenging without being overwhelming, and also enjoyably different and more claustrophobic than the wide open areas of the eastern map.

    The only "balance" issue I ran into was how incredibly powerful the Romans are, both in terms of unit quality and number of units, which I imagine is mostly intentional (given how badass the Romans were). However, I note with approval the decision to decrease the power of Camillan Roman infantry at least a little bit; right now, they are far and way superior to the general Gallic rosters. The only Gallic infantry that can hope to stand up to them man-for-man for long are the elite nobles and retainers, who are much more expensive and also have a smaller unit size. That said, I'll probably go back to the Aedui or the Arverni at some later point when their reforms are worked out. Fighting the Romans (even for the little bit that I did) was a much greater challenge than anything I'd run into as Baktria or Hayasdan.

    I did run into one possible issue with rebel army AI behavior. The Aedui are surrounded by powerful rebel factions, designed to slow the advance of both the player and the AI towards superpower-dom. However, I found that as the player my territory was a magnet for AI rebel armies, even ones from fairly far away. Both the Volcae (one stack) and the Ligurians (two stacks) migrated across neighboring rebel territories specifically to invade my budding Confederation. As a check on the player's expansion, I really enjoyed having all of these armies invading and desolating my territory - it greatly added to the challenge of the game. However, it also made it much easier for the other AI factions to expand rapidly, leading to some disappointing situations. For example, the Arverni conquered the territory of the Volcae with only four units, as the Volcae had sent virtually all of their forces on a long northward trek to attack me. Similarly, the Ligurians almost immediately sent two full stacks of units through Massilia's territory to attack me, which allowed the Romans to overrun all of northern Italy by turn 30 (I re-loaded and managed to grab Mediolanum and Felsina before them, the better to fight them later). Again, having rebel armies invading right and left was a very fun aspect of the campaign; however, having a player-controlled faction in western or central Europe seems to mess up the rebel AI's priorities, leaving them especially vulnerable to the ever-northward march of the Romans.

    I've also begun to notice how easy it is to placate the AI with very basic diplomatic tricks, like offering them a 100-a-turn tribute for 30 turns. I offered this sort of tribute to the Romans, and as long as the tribute held, they avoided war with me. This was despite the AI's obvious desire to crush me and take my holdings in Cisapline Gaul - the Romans piled up four full stacks of soldiers just south of the border, and milled about angrily, ready to attack. However, the AI seemed unwilling to forgo a measly 100 a turn that it clearly did not need! On the one hand, this sort of tribute-spamming seems pretty easy to exploit. On the other hand, I like that tribute options seem to make the AI more responsive to diplomacy (avoiding wars, ending wars, entering alliances, mutual attack on neighbors, etc.).

    One final topic for discussion - the Teutonic character system. I appreciate the concept behind this system - that the Aedui are a confederation of many different tribes and families, and that as such they do not have a single family tree. The result is a faction that plays differently from the other monarchy-based ones that I had previously played, which I appreciate. However, I also understand the frustrations that some people have directed at this system. The biggest problem is the lack of transparency concerning how it operates. With a family tree, the player can see whether new generals will soon be coming of age or not - even if no new generals will come for many dozens of turns, there is still an understanding of how new generals will appear. Currently, the Teutonic system does not have this sort of transparency. I received three new characters in my game, one from adoption and two from heroic battles. However, I could not figure out what was triggering these new characters. The size of my Confederation appeared to be only very weakly-related to the appearance of new family members; the last 25 turns or so I had 11 regions and 8 family members. Furthermore, my attempts to generate new family members through "heroic victories" generally failed (I received two new family members, despite winning a dozen or so heroic victories against AI rebel armies, while having less FM than settlements).

    None of this was game-breaking, but it did become a bit frustrating by the end, largely because I had no idea whether I was doing it right or not. The transparency offered by the family tree helps alleviate some of this anxiety - no matter what you do, new family members will eventually become available, and the player can watch their progress towards adulthood even as they also receive periodic adoptions or men-of-the-hour. At the very least, the player is assured that by waiting, new family members will become available. The "Teutonic" system provides no such transparency; I was left with fewer family members than I would have liked for my expanding empire, and with a sneaking suspicion that I might never have enough family members to govern all of my settlements.

    I like the use of the Teutonic system for some factions that are meant to represent confederations of smaller sub-groups, rather than unitary monarchies or republics. However, in terms of implementation, I would recommend: 1) making the incidence of new family members in the Teutonic system more responsive to the number of settlements the player controls, ideally through the rapid arrival of adoption offers when a new settlement is taken; and, 2) improving the transparency in-game of how to generate new family members under the Teutonic system, to reassure players that there are options for getting new family members.

    One final note - all three of the new family members I generated received the tribal trait "Aedui" after spending a turn in a settlement. Does the Teutonic system only generate family members of the ruling clan? If I had waited longer, would it have generated more men of the Brannovaci, Carnute, or Insubre tribes (or even other tribes, like the Semenones, Pictones, or Arevaci)?


    General Progress

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Aside from the above-noted issue with the rebel AI and the Romans, I was pretty pleased with the AI progress in this match. The Romans and Carthaginians actually fought a war fairly early, though the Romans rapidly evicted the Carthaginians from Sicily (I wonder whether there is a way to make wars in Sicily last longer; the RL wars of the Carthaginians, Greeks, and Romans in Sicily were brutal decades-long slug-fests). Once the Romans took Sicily, however, they clearly had no intention of pursuing a naval empire in the Western Mediterranean, preferring instead to stand around along their northern border waiting for the tribute I was paying them to run out.

    In Northern Europe, the Boii, Sweboz, and Pritanoi all expanded in logical fashions. I was pleased to see the Pritanoi actually send armies over the Channel to conquer some of the Belgae, connecting those two regions (even if it was somewhat in reverse of RL!). The result was an interesting Rhineland standoff between myself, the Pritanoi, the Sweboz, and the Boii. Although I stopped my campaign just as the last rebel settlements were being conquered by the Pritanoi and the Sweboz, the future interactions in central Europe would have been interesting had I continued.

    Outside of my local area, things looked pretty good. KH, Macedon, and Epirus ended up in a stalemate. Pergamon expanded rapidly in both the Balkans and Asia, conquering everything from Halicarnassos to the Danube. The Seleucids were also on the ropes, as the Ptolemies actually invaded Syria from the Levant and the Parthians overran a good chunk of the east. Had the game gone on longer, we might still have seen the re-emergence of the Gray Death, but the first hundred turns the Seleucids appeared to be on the ropes while not being totally overrun. I'm convinced that the key to longer-term multi-faction viability in the East is to ensure that the Parthians usually do well - they are the main eastern antagonist of the Seleucids in most games, and yet in most of the earlier games I played they were easily crushed by the march of the Gray Death straight through to the northern edge of the map. The point isn't to pre-determine a winner, but just to make sure that the Parthians give the Seleucids a run for their money. The same goes for the Saka, who were easily crushed by Baktria in my Aedui game. As I understand it, historically the big advantage of steppe people was that the armies from civilized regions could not operate effectively far out onto the steppe; even if the Saka or the Parni could not always pose a direct threat to the major empires, at the very least they could remain independent, and strike when the major empires were weakened by internal or external wars. It would be nice to see this sort of steppe independence preserved in some way.


    Overall, a very fun campaign, and an excellent example of the EB2 team is working to build diverse factions and play styles.

    A few final notes on topics of discussion that have come up in the last few days:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1) I personally would have no objection to removing "Indian" culture from the game and replacing it with "Forest Tribal," given the limitations of the game engine and the small chance of the Germans and Indians ever interacting. If a new cultural grouping were to be introduced, I think that an Illyrian/Thracian tribal group would probably be a good choice, the better to represent the difficulties that outside empires had in subduing this region. All that said, I recognize that this sort of change would be a pretty substantial use of development resources, and respect that the developers might prefer to focus on other issues (like expanding unit rosters) before they revisit the issue of cultural groupings.

    2) I think that the reduction of Britain by a region or two is an excellent idea. I would strongly recommend including either Amphipolis or Mytilene, a recommendation based, of course, on my own personal fascination with that part of the ancient world, as well as the historically high level of urbanization around the Aegean during this time period, and the potential need to provide Macedon with a starting buff. Unless an Illyrian faction is to be included, I would strongly recommend against adding more cities to the eastern coast of the Adriatic.

    3) I think the idea of a separate, more aggressive "independent kingdoms" faction would be a cool idea, if it could be implemented properly. I think a single such faction would be most appropriate (rather than a new Greek rebel faction and non-Greek rebel faction); the purpose would simply be to create disparate pockets of more aggressive rebel activity, not model any actual historical connection between, say, Syracuse and Massilia or Tylis and Belgium). However, I worry that the CAI would struggle to control so many widely-disparate territories, which might in turn allow the major factions to expand *more* rapidly, rather than less.

    4) If no additional rebel faction is included, I would recommend the Insubres and the Nervi for the two remaining factions. Each would fill up a portion of the map that is currently pretty empty to start; each would help limit the rapid expansion of currently-aggressive factions (the Nervi can check the Sweboz; the Insubres can check the Romans); as separate Celtic factions, each would help limit the emergence of a single super-Celtic faction; finally, each would be relatively easy to implement, as they would be able to build on the existing rosters of the Aedui, Arverni, and Boii.


    In any event, I look forward to seeing what the team has in store going forward. Keep up the good work!
    Last edited by adun12345; August 06, 2015 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Finally figured out how Spoiler tags work lol

  11. #2151

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Hello guys, it's been awhile since I tried any patches and just started using 2.04a and I noticed something wrong.

    I started a Koinon Helenon campaign, I move Areus back to mainland and gathered my forces to besiege the city of Korinthos. I built siege weapons and wait for a turn. In the turn-change period a Makedon army closes in mine and suddenly the siege was lifted immediately. This happened 3 times before and after I reinstall everything. I tried besieging the city again and the makedonians tried to attack me to relieve the siege, I lost Chremonides in the battle receiving only 1 report. After the battle however all my family members except Areus (The other 2 FM in mainland and Chremonides) died. I tried besieging the city again since after the battle the siege is relieved. Then the enemy forces from Knossos sallied out in a battle and I got to fight a battle of Knossos of which I do not besiege.

    Anyone knows what is going on? are there any solution?

  12. #2152

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Cohors Evocata.

    Can I start by saying how much I like your name. It is very magisterial.

    I have no wish to see any culture removed from the game, so I am with you on that.

    I am just your average 60 year-old with some reading on ancient cultures under my belt. I would not claim to be a historian. It is not a very exact science.

    I need bend the knee to no-one though on the subject of logic. And it does strike me that to argue that Massalia should be fundamentally Celtic because while the city had a veneer of Greekness, the hinterlands did not, effectively rules out arguing in the same breath that Thracian areas with a veneer of Celtic overlordship should be represented as fundamentally Celtic. I don't know about the history, but it is logic for dummies.

    On the subject of rudeness, my experience reading the site over many years is that there is a certain amount of snippiness about, not all of which is one-sided. My advice would be that if the devs don't want feedback, the wisest course would be not to ask for it.

  13. #2153
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Can't we allow recruitment of at least a skeleton skirmisher armies from Roman Province governments? At the moment if you want to build anything high level, you must convert the whole of Greece and Carthage from Free City to Provincia Romana. And that stops all recruitment, forever. That province's recruitment pool will just remain empty.

    At least in EB1 we had those white-robed police-like guys we could recruit from these. :-(

    provinc city requires factions { f_rome, } and not hidden_resource italy and not building_present govallied
    {
    capability
    {
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { f_rome, }
    law_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { f_rome, }
    religion_level bonus 1 requires factions { f_rome, } and event_counter ecReligionUpdate 1
    agent diplomat 1 requires factions { f_rome, } and not event_counter ecRomeIsAI 1
    agent_limit diplomat 1
    }
    material stone
    construction 8
    cost 6000
    settlement_min large_town
    upgrades
    {
    }

  14. #2154

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Solution for lack of culture spots, as as suggested long ago - Indian faction should go out.

    Natural border of the map are mountains of Afghanistan and harsh desert of Baluchistan - projection of force was and still is very difficult over those natural borders...and now we have map in plains of India already...I mean, why stop there now...should add whole India than...No current faction had real possibility to project power over India..

    And possible attack from powerful Indian king, (same can work in some other edges of the map, or bordering with big rebel territory) can be mimic by script...of rebel Indian stack with demands - give tribute, or province...or army will pop up there in next turn.
    Let's be absolutely clear about something: we are not going to remove any existing factions. I can state that categorically and emphatically, not going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    With that culture spot out, and possible "imperial" out too, we can gave two more culture spots...Let's say Traco-Illiran as one ...

    Speaking about that, borders of Ilyrian provinces are hilarious, to say it middy. If somebody knew anything about basic geography only, Adriatic coast due to very rough Dinaric Alps mountains was very isolated until recently from Panonian plains... I mean Segestica as capital of everything from northern Dalmatia, to what is now south west Hungary..or another one from south Dalmatia and Montenegro to north of modern Osiek...I mean, even noways, drive from Belgrade to the south Dalmatian coast or Montenegro is very rough ride...While Dinaric mountain and coast was Illyrian, southern parts of Panonian plain were mostly Celtic, or at least strong Celtic influence..Also, visible in entology and faces of the people even now days...

    So those borders MUST be changed ..with one or two provinces with north and south Dinnaric rim, and one which can be Segestica, representing south western rims of Panonian plain...In same time we have like 8, provinces for England and Wails..
    We don't need to remove a faction to change the culture mix, as someone suggested further down, there's a possibility there by re-assigning the existing ones. Not sure what that new one might be, yet.

    We're already planning to change the borders and provinces in Illyria. It is a non-trivial change, though, given the number of files it impacts. It has a high margin of error, too, so it isn't a change taken upon lightly. Indeed, in an ideal world, you don't change the provinces once you've begun to build a mod. We're not in that idea world, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    The problem with culture is simple. The game only allows to have 8.

    Those 8 were chosen to be:

    -Western mediterranean polities
    -Hellenic polities
    -Forest tribalism
    -European tribal states
    -Eastern tribal states
    -Eastern imperial
    -Indian tribal states
    -Steppe noamdism
    -Arid nomadism

    So to not have European tribal states so spread you would need to be repalced with some other, but which?
    The cultures are so generic for a reason.

    If there was more slots I guess that all would be split up except hellenic, nomadism and maybe indians.

    I agree somehow that if something was to changeremoving indian seems the most logical as they are the one least important. Only been used by one faction and been present in the very edge of the map.

    Eastern imeprial I wont say so. While its presence at start its very small its an important part of several factions reform, repressenting the settled version of a eastern civilization going over the classical tribe administration.
    I think the most viable option is to re-assign the slot used by Indian Tribal States (replacing with Forest Tribalism in India, perhaps, as suggested below), then use that slot to introduce another culture to be inserted in opposition to ETS, to mix things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    I don't mean offend anyone but I really see little point in having an indian faction..
    It's not a matter of taste for me but a matter of resources, by which I don't mean lack of history but rather manpower working behind the mod of EBII, 8 limited culture slots, how hard it is to create, skin, model units and how much time it takes..
    Why add an indian faction with it's obligatory provinces, culture slot, time consuming modeling time when the mod is extremely short on manpower. Many people are complaining with historical facts (which seems plausable although I cannot check) against lack of settlements in iranian peninsula, there is a confirmed (I think) talk of combining provinces in Britain to add more settlements to more logical(?) places and there is a culture representation/empire overstability problem related to game engine people are trying to overcome.
    Remove indian faction and get one culture slot to balance things out as you see fit, get an extra faction slot added to other free two slots and maybe have more than one or two rebel AI factions for improved gameplay, get some extra settlements that you can distribute, get rid of a script or more in the future which will take it's toll on the game engine to represent the indian factions independence from a gamewise nonexistent empire..

    I will play and support the mod nonetheless no matter what the team decides..
    As above, we're not removing Taksashila, so best to drop this particular line of conversation. There may be a way to recover the slot without meaningfully impacting the faction.

    Besides there are a number of units coming Taksashila's way, including some tribal levies that will round out the base of their roster, and regionals too.

    As mentioned, changing the map is also not something we're willing to countenance except out of extreme necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian8 View Post
    It does seem odd to argue BOTH that a veneer of Greek culture at the top of society in Massalia is a poor reason to change the cultural settings their but that a thin veneer of Celtic overlordship in Thracia and possibly even Germany makes them...well...Celtic.
    They're two completely different models of conquest, and different places. In Massalia, the city itself was Greek, most of the inhabitants were Greek. Meanwhile, the surrounding countryside was predominantly Celtic/Celto-Ligurian/Ligurian. In Tylis, the majority of the elites in all the significant places were Celtic, while the ordinary people were Thracian. They're scattered all over the place, not concentrated in just one place. In Massalia, they are separate and distinct. In Tylis, they're integrated after a fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian8 View Post
    AS H/M 20 turns.

    Economics. I felt I had to get rid of my elephants (blub) and fleets immediately to balance the books and made much use of the free upkeep in minor settlements to shave off more expense.
    Nor did I think I would be able to hold all of the settlements that began on red, and so carried out a scorched earth policy to boost my treasury in Tarsos, Asaak, Antiocheia-Margaine and Harmozeia, using the withdrawing troops to bolster nearby cities. This got some of them into the blue.
    It has been difficult thus far to built my economy as the emphasis has been absolutely on using temples and games' fields to stave off more lost cities. At this stage a successful saboteur can set you back years, so investing in spies early instead of troops is a sensible precaution.

    I am feeling my way around the government buildings and haven't changed anything. They give a more than satisfactory range of factional and native troops for myself, who isn't too fussed about battlefield eye candy and pockets-full of elites.
    It allows you to assemble balanced garrisons with sufficient punch to venture out if you need to. The high state of unrest and the shortage of money means offensive armies led by FMs will have to wait for another decade or maybe two.
    I have my eye on Ephesus, but it may as well be on the moon for now. Around me, The Ptolemies are just starting to gather round Tarsos. I do think the AI factions undergo a step change of aggression after about 20 turns. All over the map they have switched on and started really going for nearby rebel settlements. Diplomacy has not been too fraught, with minor sweeteners thrown in by me to oil the wheels.
    I have been besieged by rebels a couple of times, though I have made a lot of use of watchtowers, meaning I have seen them coming. The rebel armies lurking along the trade lanes have been quiet small.

    BAI. I too have seen more evidence of units charging front line only in this game. AI rebel armies (all I have faced) have been small but not ill-formed. They skirmish and flank particularly well. They always seem to have twice as much ammunition as me and keep pelting away long after my guys are out.
    I have twice seen Eastern slingers take a rear charge from 38 bodyguard cavalry with few sent flying, after which they turn round and start swishing away with their penknives until I am forced to withdraw.
    The only other oddity has been the sight of three different rebel generals charging their Hippeis straight into phalangists from the front at the start of battles.

    It will be interesting, now the AI factions are ramping up, to see how the next 20 turns go and how much the violence accelerates.
    While the elephants are certainly (intentionally!) extortionate to keep hold of, the fleets shouldn't be doing too much damage to your treasury. Upkeep is only 1/10th recruitment.

    Sounds like you're having fun with changing things up, though, and the regional recruitment pools are working well. Have you deal with the four "bandit" stacks roaming around your territory yet?

    AI units have the same amount of ammunition as the human player.

    On cavalry, if you're expecting a single charge to drive off even skirmishers, you're mistaken, I'm afraid. Repeated charges are necessary, even with heavy cavalry. You should be charging, withdrawing, re-ordering and charging again. Not only that, the impact itself has a significant hit on enemy morale, making it more likely you'll break them than simply leaving your cavalry in melee. The balance is very deliberately in favour of the charge, not staying in contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    More things I have noted playing with Bosphorans.

    First, I had some problems with cavalry when fighting a battle in a camp. The enemy outnumbered me but it was mostly infantry (strange for a camp of nomads but well) so I used a lot my cavalry to charge and itnercept the units trying to flank my infantry.
    Most times it worked fine but a few my cavalry went like crazy. One time they were running towards the enemy perfectly and suddenly when quite close to them they swiftly tuned to the right. THey went away from the objective turned back in a circle and got to it just walking.
    Two or three times happened that when ordered to atack a unit instead of heading directly towards it they directly took a weir circular path, and no charge was triggered when this happened.
    Also when the battle advanced I ordered a few units on my line centre to advance and they just spreaded, some left others right, breaking the line and going running like crazy.

    I guess theres some issue with pathfinding in camp maps.

    The other issue is mroe design wise. I dont see the point of Subject Clan goverment in camps. Allied clan costs the same, its faster to establish, gives better recruitment, better public order, more trade income and it converts culture.
    So, whats the advantage of Subject clan? Because I cant see any.
    Camp battles are sieges, siege pathfinding is bugged. Camp battles have invisible walls as mentioned by MisterFred downthread.

    Subject Clan governments have a much longer conversion bonus - it goes to 50% where Allied Clan only goes to 20%. Thus it's a necessary step to upgrade to any of the more Hellenic government buildings.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    My suggestion is to use two spots, for 2 "Rebel factions". One can represent strong Greek cities which were somewhat friendly and related to each-other anyway (let say Syrakuse, one province of Epirus (should not have two at all), Massalia and Synope..and maybe one, or two more. They would be separated enough from each other in order to prevent some kind of empire AI tendency). Another one could be European barbarian with strategically placed few provinces over the map, where we need bit more buffer.

    And I think we will have much more balanced and more historically accurate game .
    As above, we're not removing Taksashila, it's not even up for debate.

    One "Rebel faction" was a stretch, two is not an option. We've just had a discussion about the two remaining slots, they're very likely to be new playable factions. Which means a dedicated Rebel faction separate from the Eleutheroi is now unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post
    Yeah, the camps thing is pretty unavoidable. There's basically invisible walls with holes in them in the corners. If the AI is besieging you, they'll actually use their ram. Eventually you get a feel for where the pathfinding issues are. Just pretend they put up spiked pits or stuck spears in the ground in anticipation of your attack.

    I've often thought that opening up a culture slot by making Indians Forest Tribal (given how unlikely it'll be to have Germans migrate to India, I don't anticipate a problem there). How to use the extra slot, well that's a problem. Add an Illyrian-Thracian-Getae slot? An Iberian slot? Punic? Italian tribal? I'd probably pick Iberian. But it's not a huge deal, in my opinion. There's only so much you can do with the engine. Like the Massilia kerfluffle, no one is really disagreeing all that much on the history, just on how the game represents a settlement vs a region.

    What I'd like to know is how to build farms in a camp/small town! I took Asanka as the Boii noting it was 45% Euro tribal, destroyed the elite herds there and... shoot, no farms. Oh well. (Actually, the problem here is probably that only allied government is possible, no factional.)
    I think re-tasking Indian Tribal, and re-classifying them as Forest Tribal is a good idea. I'll raise it with the team.

    Not sure what to re-use the slot as, but it needs to be applicable to a bigger area than Spain alone, I'd say.

    Quote Originally Posted by jordiebenardus View Post
    Hello guys, it's been awhile since I tried any patches and just started using 2.04a and I noticed something wrong.

    I started a Koinon Helenon campaign, I move Areus back to mainland and gathered my forces to besiege the city of Korinthos. I built siege weapons and wait for a turn. In the turn-change period a Makedon army closes in mine and suddenly the siege was lifted immediately. This happened 3 times before and after I reinstall everything. I tried besieging the city again and the makedonians tried to attack me to relieve the siege, I lost Chremonides in the battle receiving only 1 report. After the battle however all my family members except Areus (The other 2 FM in mainland and Chremonides) died. I tried besieging the city again since after the battle the siege is relieved. Then the enemy forces from Knossos sallied out in a battle and I got to fight a battle of Knossos of which I do not besiege.

    Anyone knows what is going on? are there any solution?
    I have absolutely no idea what to make of that. Do you have an error log?

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    Can't we allow recruitment of at least a skeleton skirmisher armies from Roman Province governments? At the moment if you want to build anything high level, you must convert the whole of Greece and Carthage from Free City to Provincia Romana. And that stops all recruitment, forever. That province's recruitment pool will just remain empty.

    At least in EB1 we had those white-robed police-like guys we could recruit from these. :-(
    No, I'm afraid not. Government buildings without recruitment are that way on purpose - either because they're temporary/transitional, or because you get troops another way, or they are to force a tactical choice between recruitment and development. In the specific instance of the provinc, the way you get troops is through the military colony building.

  15. #2155
    Biarchus
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Playing Pritanoi for the first time in 2.04a. I just had a FM come of age and he's 16. But this is the Teutonic system with no Family Tree, how is this possible? It doesn't make much sense to me...

  16. #2156

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
    Playing Pritanoi for the first time in 2.04a. I just had a FM come of age and he's 16. But this is the Teutonic system with no Family Tree, how is this possible? It doesn't make much sense to me...
    All factions have scripted starting families, even factions using the Teutonic system. If memory serves, Teutonic systems will crash without a basic famiy tree defined at game start. Don't quote me on that, though.

    Once all FMs in the starting family tree grow up, you will not get any more FMs coming of age for the rest of the game, only adoptions.

  17. #2157

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    The in-game equivalent of the sending of an embassy is the sending of a diplomat and keeping them in a certain area for longer periods of time. But diplomatic and cultural interactions are not the main reason for the map to extend east this far. Let’s get into the meat of Total War, shall we? Military conflict and territorial extension.

    • First of the Achaemenid empire: Gandhara and Hinduš are attested as Achaemenid satrapies. The south-eastern border of the empire is supposed to have been formed by the Indus river , though it’s possible either or both of these districts may have extended some distance on the far side of the river as well.
    • Next, onto Alexander. He campaigned in the area mentioned above and famously fought the battle of the Hydaspes River in said area after crossing the Indus. This campaign included the submission of the ruler of Taxila at the time.
    • Next come the Mauryans and their conflict with the Seleucids. Though it’s uncertain whether Chandragupta or Seleukos won in the end, Chandragupta gained a large territorial expansion west of the Indus in exchange for 500 war elephants. We then skip another century or so, until a descendant of Seleukos arrives on the scene. Antiochos III crossed the Hindu Kush into during his anabasis and ‘renewed his friendship with Sophagasenus the king of the Indians;’ (Pol. His. 11.34)
    • In the second century B.C. we find the Bactrians on the rise as ‘The Greeks who caused Bactria to revolt grew so powerful on account of the fertility of the country that they became masters, not only of Ariana, but also of India, as Apollodorus of Artemita says: and more tribes were subdued by them than by Alexander—by Menander in particular (at least if he actually crossed the Hypanis towards the east and advanced as far as the Imaüs), for some were subdued by him personally and others by Demetrius, the son of Euthydemus the king of the Bactrians;’ (Strab. 11.11.1)
    • Sometime after this the Greeks lost control over Bactria itself due to nomadic incursions from the north, but Indo-Greek kings continued to rule over the lands south of the Hindu Kush for perhaps another 150 years. During this period, however, they increasingly had to deal with pressure from various nomadic peoples in the form of the Indo-Parthians, Indo-Saka and finally the Kushans-Yuezhi, until the final Indo-Greek ruler died or was dethroned around the beginning of the common era.


    My point here is that the mountain ranges and deserts separating modern-day Afghanistan and Pakistan may have presented a formidable obstacle, but certainly didn’t stop invaders from the north-west and west. There is indeed a natural border there, but it’s a border that’s been crossed all too regularly. The area you suggest cutting from the game served as the heartland for at least three (offshoots of) the factions included in EB II at the moment and simply drawing a line which prevents them from doing so or interacting with this area in any way would be rather ahistorical in my opinion. India (or what was commonly by the Greeks and Romans seen as ‘India’) was not some far-off area on the periphery, but as a place regularly interacted with by several peoples and dynasties to the west. Of course a line has to be drawn somewhere, but for the most part the lands to the west of the Indus seems to have been the farthest the invaders from the west got (in which they made a lasting impression). In that sense the current border isn't drawn all that arbitrarily in my opinion.
    Very nice historical post, but I think you miss the point 100% - I have never said there was NO interaction between Seculcid, Baktrians etc with India, I said, and no body explained so far WHY BORDER ENDED THERE, unnaturally in mid of the Indian plains than?

    If you want to play on historical accuracy card and "what if", than there was FAR FAR FAR greater influence (in every sense) of rest of India on the current piece of India and faction which is on the map, than Selucid, Bactrians etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Besides, if we only consider natural borders to be respectable borders, the southern and northern sides of the map are going to need some major redrawing as well.
    Like where and why? Sahara desert and Indian ocean is not natural border enough? Baltic or unpopulated-unpasable-forested north of the Scandinavia-north Russia is not natural border, too? (I have actually suggested, cutting most on northern part somewhere in the level of Scottish-British border)



    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Fair enough, I assumed Traco-Illyrian was a real suggestion. As for the Indian faction going out, I believe I've already given some arguments for why I believe it should stay in the mod, not in the least to represent the power the Mauryans projected from their heartland off the map (the Bactrians seem to have invaded only after the last Mauryan emperor was assassinated, though it’s possible they did so as allies of the Mauryans).

    As I said before I can see the Indian Tribal religion being removed with Taksashila starting as Eastern Imperial and having to contend with Forest Tribalism, but so far I haven’t really seen a non-culture replacement suggestion for the slot. Are there any viable and markedly different socio-political options we haven’t discussed so far?
    Thraco-Illirian is more than distinct enough and it will make some sence in faction expansions ( for example Dacians always go for west, north west, not in natural sout, or southwest direction)

    Or separating Germanic culture from Celtic one...Or Phoenician from Italian...


    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    As to the map changes planned currently, I seem to recall there should be more than just the British one I mentioned above, including one in Asia Minor, but if the devs would be willing to shine some light on the planned changes so we can all be on the same page, I’d be grateful.
    Current borders of two Illyrian provinces are hilarious, everything else is understatement, as I have already explained. With little tweak and work there it will be far more accurate. You can leave two provinces, one with capital in Spaloto (Split) or just leave current Dalminion, for coastal and inland Dynaric part, and one in Segestica for souther Panonian rim...Not even provinces number increase is necessary if that is a problem. While we have 8 provinces in in England-Wales alone in relatively flat and culturally-economical-geographically connected region...


    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    This is basically the approach RTR VII took in their campaign scenario and whilst there’s nothing wrong with the approach in and off itself, I think it goes against the philosophy of EB. One purpose of the mod was to show that there was no unified ‘Greek cities’ faction or ‘barbarian’ empire sprawling the area we now call Europe. There were various peoples and nations contending for power and lumping them together in one faction is in my opinion doing them a disservice in representing their uniqueness and historical situation. Why would, for example, the (Thraco-Illyrian, with a possible indigenous influence) Dardanians in the Balkans have a unified military and diplomacy with the (Germano-Gallic, possibly even completely unique) Belgae in northern Gaul? The two peoples (or people groups) were culturally distinct from one another and may not have even been in contact with one another. Not to mention new players may even get the impression that these peoples are basically interchangeable and unimportant labels on a fundamentally homogenous ‘barbarian’ mass. At least with the current Eleutheroi (Free Peoples) label there is no such stigma, as the faction includes African nations, Greek city-states and others without distinction. The same goes for the Greeks, where there’s also the question as to how influential the city-states were in their hinterlands and how well a ‘Greek’ faction would represent the local population as a whole.
    Who said they should be connected? I have insisted that those "Rebel faction" should be made of geographically distant regions so every physical connection will be hard. Distant, but yet culturally-politically similar or friendly as Greek city states I have mentioned. I did not have time to elaborate further, but starting garrisons can be made way smaller than for other factions, so we will not have early empire building, but those places will have buffer effect on bigger factions latter on, and give more balanced and historical feeling. Other one can be Celtic ( I have not mentioned putting Dardania in same box), wit let's say province in Galicia (Iberia), to balance early Iberian advance on north, one more in British island to keep Pritaoni busy for a while instead of building empire fast, one on Bretanie, one in Veneto and Galatia in Asia minor (could be also Sccordisci). Giving how distant and isolated they are no "empire building" or cohesive actions would be possible (or if happen somewhere, can be tweeked and balanced), while giving more balanced and historical game.

    Or another one can be arid nomad faction, with province in far west Mauritania (to check a bit Cartago quick advance, as we see ,into Africa), Etiopia, and south-east province of Arabia (across Hormuz strait) to balance a bit quick Saba advance all around rim of Arabia)


    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    As IIRC QuitusSertorius mentioned some pages back, Macedonia really was in a dire situation with Pyrrhus at their gates. It might be considered somewhat of a miracle that the Antigonid dynasty managed to remain in control of Macedonia: had Pyrrhus not died fighting in Argos it’s very likely the Antigonid dynasty would have been extinguished earlier than it historically was. In this sense Macedonia (rather: the Antigonid dynasty) falling quite early isn't all that strange given their start. Taking Pyrrhus and with him Epirus out of the mod basically accomplishes the same thing: one faction ending to ensure the survival of another. (I'm not really sure how to word this, basically you're forcing one scenario regarding Macedonia by eliminating the Epirote issue altogether, when it was a significant issue historically

    I think the fundamental question here is what is more important: game-play or historicity. From what I wrote above I believe it’s quite obvious I’ll remain firmly in the historicity camp.
    Well, historically Pyrus did DIED. So we are making mod of single guy fan boys. I would have nothing against it, unless game play (and some historical sense) in that KH/Epiros/Macedonia corner is broken no matter lot of efforts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Finally, I’d like to mention that your changes would require the deleting of work made by a dedicated team of people for a mod which has been in development for about eight years by now and which still isn't finished. Given the time and effort people have put into this mod for what is essentially no return, I’d only consider the removing of stuff a good idea if it’s absolutely necessary. At the moment, I believe that is not the case.
    What part of their work should be deleted, or work should be non-respected?

    It is only one small piece of the map. Indian faction is not finished by any means, one of the less finished at and all work there will not be lost as feeling of India, influence of it etc can be represented in far eastern rebel, Selucid and Bactrian provinces. Plus, with scripting as I have suggested, we will have Indian invasions, army units, generals etc. (actually it is better to mimic those occasional crossing of Hyndukus, that you explained in detail, that ending map just like that, in mid planes of India..)

    Nothing is lost there. All work is respected and included and actually improrved.

    All other things stay as they are, just little bit rebalanced with introduction of those rebel factions (culture, units, buildings, etc, everything stay)
    Last edited by 4th Regiment; August 07, 2015 at 02:29 AM.
    Tribal Total War

  18. #2158

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post

    I have absolutely no idea what to make of that. Do you have an error log?
    I'm not relly sure but I've repeat the installation twice today and it still shows the same error, no crashes but I always break a siege when an enemy army engages or next to my besieging army I haven't tried with any other faction but it persists in my Koinon Helenon campaign.

    http://www.megafileupload.com/97iO/M2TW.system.log.txt

    I uploaded my system log there

    I'm thinking it's probably related with the "force siege on Knossos" script, approximately 4 turns after the start of my campaign the Knosso Garrison sallies out and I met them in a battle with any army led by Hegemon Areus that much is consistent in the errors.

  19. #2159

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    No, I'm afraid not. Government buildings without recruitment are that way on purpose - either because they're temporary/transitional, or because you get troops another way, or they are to force a tactical choice between recruitment and development. In the specific instance of the provinc, the way you get troops is through the military colony building.
    But you can't build military colonies outside of Italy. Or will this change at some point in the future?

  20. #2160

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum 2.04a is released!

    I believe Forrest Tribal in India represents the Forrest tribes that the urban Raja did not have control over. Some of them were not part of the caste system and spoke a foreign language, I believe it could be replaced with Eastern Imperial instead to represent the Urban rule.

    Here is an example of the province make up

    ----Total Political control-----

    Player -Mauryan style Raja in the Urban Societies and towns and villages
    Indian Tribal states - Replaced with Eastern Imperial

    ----Limited Political control-----

    Nomadic and sedentary tribes with their own Rajas that subscribed to the caste system and understood the Rig Veda and the Epics.
    Forrest Tribal
    Eastern Tribal
    (Tribal Government Can help here)

    ----No control-----

    Forrest Tribes that are outside the caste system and spoke a foreign language
    Forrest Tribal
    (Tribal Government Can help here)

    Romila Thapar's Early India has detailed information about these type of societies.

    The spare can maybe be used for 'Le tene style' celts Boii, Aruernoi, Aedui while the rest of the tribes can get ETS?
    Last edited by Mantaprey; August 07, 2015 at 04:23 AM.

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