Europa Barbarorum 2.08e is released!

[delra]

They actually weren't English at all and I think didn't speak English either. :-D /troll

[Ribtickler]

They actually weren't English at all and I think didn't speak English either. :-D /troll

[Ribtickler]

?

[Boogie Knight]

They actually weren't English at all and I think didn't speak English either. :-D /troll

Eh what? They certainly called themselves English, as did the Normans, and their language was Old English. I'll grant that Old English is a very different creature to modern English but to say they didn't speak modern English is an utterly redundant statement as it didn't exist then. Might as well say they didn't speak Esperanto.

Anywho, is there a set schedule by which new versions of EBII are released? Weekly, fortnightly etc? Or is it just as and when enough changes/fixes have been made to warrant an update?

[QuintusSertorius]

Anywho, is there a set schedule by which new versions of EBII are released? Weekly, fortnightly etc? Or is it just as and when enough changes/fixes have been made to warrant an update?

No, just as frequently as I have something meaningful to release. Given my current work patterns, that won't be mid-week, since I'm away from home. I generally try to get them out before a weekend, so people have time to get stuck in.

I'm keen to get something out shortly to address the issues with distance from capital and playing KH.

[Boogie Knight]

No, just as frequently as I have something meaningful to release. Given my current work patterns, that won't be mid-week, since I'm away from home. I generally try to get them out before a weekend, so people have time to get stuck in.

I'm keen to get something out shortly to address the issues with distance from capital and playing KH.

Good to know, thanks.

I had a CTD just a minute ago but I'm not sure where to find the log to post here. I made the edits to do with that according to the instructions in the first post, but I can't seem to find the folder or file it points to. Any idea where I should look, or is there a chance no log was created in the first place?

[Sylon]

Which faction a province will revolt to is determined by the faction_creator tag in descr_strat. KH is listed as the faction_creator for Massalia, so Massalia revolts to KH. Similarly, Arverni is listed as the faction_creator for Galatia, so Galatia will revolt to Arverni.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Map of which province belongs to which faction_creator. Eremos has Massylii listed as faction_creator, but rebel provinces cannot go into revolt.

Credits for the map goes to Gigantus.

[Samson224]

Which faction a province will revolt to is determined by the faction_creator tag in descr_strat. KH is listed as the faction_creator for Massalia, so Massalia revolts to KH. Similarly, Arverni is listed as the faction_creator for Galatia, so Galatia will revolt to Arverni.

The posts I've read here in twcenter gave me the idea that it would be primarily determined by descr_regions-file. Either way there are actually only few differences in creators (descr_strat) and owners (descr_regions) of regions.

Well, I'd say that the map you posted represents the "owner" factions set in descr_regions, because the Ma'in province (region_192) is Nabatean in the map. The 2.04a files have creator of the province set as Saba and the owner as Nabateans. The map is actually identical (not the same though) to the map I posted in this topic few days ago.


The real difficulty in revolts is when trying to figure out why some regions rebel to other factions and the other to eleutheroi. Few Examples:

Antiocheia-Margiane is a parthian owned (descr_regions) and created (descr_strat) province, but it always revolts to slave faction from the Seleucids. Why not to the Parthians? I tried different relation values between parthians and seleucids, but it had no effect.

One very odd case in my last campaign was when Tolosa revolted from the Romans to the Aedui, and it's the Arverni that are both the owners and the creators of the region. The Arverni and Aedui were at war and the Romans had somewhat neutral relations with both.

One thing that has become more certain is that when two factions are allies, (or the other is vassal) and the revolts concern both of them (the loser and the receiver), the region goes to the eleutheroi. The very odd revolts (like the Tolosa one) have happened when the owner/creator-faction has been at war with someone. So the relations between the factions might have at least some effect.

I'm still gathering data from my campaigns, and trying to create different scenarios to find the factors. Don't know if I'll ever find 'em, but I like the challenge.

[delra]

Tarsos for sure does not revolt to Pontos.

[Sylon]

Tarsos for sure does not revolt to Pontos.

Come to think of it, you're right. Tarsos revolts fairly early on, but never to Pontos. On the other hand, Massalia revolting to KH, Galatia revolting to Arverni, and Bononia revolting to Boii is definitely due to faction_creator. There has to be some other factor dictating it.

[delra]

It's not about unit comparison but about AI comparison. AI should be able to defeat a single unit of spearmen with two Xystophoroi. Riders of Rohan are mediums too, in any case, and the orc spearmen I used are tougher than Dorks. Templars aren't all that heavy for SS standards either. Some units there make Baktrian late bodyguards from EB1 look like pussies.

When you replay such a battle in multiple mods, it's clear what EB2 AI is doing wrong with its cavalry.

[QuintusSertorius]

It's not about unit comparison but about AI comparison. AI should be able to defeat a single unit of spearmen with two Xystophoroi. Riders of Rohan are mediums too, in any case, and the orc spearmen I used are tougher than Dorks. Templars aren't all that heavy for SS standards either. Some units there make Baktrian late bodyguards from EB1 look like pussies.

When you replay such a battle in multiple mods, it's clear what EB2 AI is doing wrong with its cavalry.

No it shouldn't. That isn't the standard upon which EBII's battles are based upon. Cavalry cannot win a battle by itself, especially not against a solid medium infantry unit like the Liby-Phoenicians. The cavalry hammer require an infantry anvil to pin a unit in place to be effective.

If you want devastating cavalry charges, where they can carry the day by themselves, I suggest you go look for another mod that caters for that. Because this is not that mod.

[delra]

Third Age: Divide and Conquer battle AI:

- 1x Orc Spearmen vs 2x Riders of Rohan.
- I set my spearmen on defence.
- One unit of riders charges at me frontally, setting the unit to Run from quite a far, they hit my guys hard and stay for a few seconds in melee.
- Meanwhile the other unit of riders positions itself at my flank.
- First unit is pulled back from melee.
- Flanking riders hit my soldiers from their flank.
- First unit reforms and hits them frontally again.
- Instant route. I LOSE.

Stainless Steel 6.4 gracul AI:
- 1x Spear Sergeants (France) vs 2x Templar Knights (Crusader States).
- I set my unit of spears on defence.
- AI walks both units of Templars into charge distance of 50m or something like that.
- AI pretends it'll charge with both units.
- It actually charges frontally with one while the other is kept in reserve.
- The first unit smashes into my spears, stays in melee for a bit.
- Second unit hits from reserve position and finishes them off.
- Everyone is dead. I LOSE.

EB2 battle AI:
- 1x Carthage Dorks vs 2x Xystophoroi.
- I set spearmen on defence.
- AI marches (walking mode) both their cavalry until something like 5m (way too close) in front of my units.
- Then AI executes a very short charge at them, both units attack frontally.
- There's no second unit, no attempt to flank with the spare unit at all.
- Both units remain in melee vs my spearmen, they don't pull back to reform and charge again.
- I WIN. Not losing even half of my unit.

Don't have BC installed ATM, but I recall AI cavalry charges (distance from which they accelerate, flanking, reserve) is better there too. EB2's AI cavalry tactics is something like "Hulk smash into wall". :-D

[QuintusSertorius]

Xystophoroi are medium cavalry. Why are you comparing them to heavy cavalry in other mods?

[z3n]

This seems to be a really recent development.. Probably from the change to speed calculation.

Also, you're incorrect. Melee hit rates are far lower in EBII than the mods you mention hence cavalry in EBII cannot re-enact the charges from the rohan movie scene.

[delra]

What about charge distance itself? They should switch to gallop much sooner, charge from further away? At the moment they walk right in front of the unit they want to charge at, it's literally like 5 meters, then charge from that distance. This means I can nullify their charges just by telling my infantry to run at them (they are close enough for that).

Even my own cavalry, when I tell them to charge, I have to press "R" myself at reasonable distance, as I don't want them to walk as close to the enemy line as they want to.

In TA/DAC cavalries run for something like 100 meters prior to charge, gives much less time to react. In SS that distance is a little smaller, but they still switch to gallop at a reasonable distance when ordered to charge.

I bet it must be a direct setting somewhere in the files, though I don't know (remember, actually) enough about modding to say exactly where it's set, on AI or unit level.

[z3n]

Yes it's a unit level setting.
The problem however is mostly within the AI, although I am compensating for unit level speed differentiations.. (Phalanxs within a main battleline). I can say with a lack of apparent modesty, EBII had perfectly good flanking/double envelopments done by its cavalry alongside the infantry before the change to speed calculations. I'm going to be troubleshooting a way to find a way to keep the other 'fixes' intact.

[delra]

Also, that other guy whats-his-nickname was totally right. All other big mods allow player in the battle map to click his faction's symbol to highlight friendly units with green circles and enemy units with red ones. Which is pretty much essential to knowing what the hell is going on in a large battle... where your line is crumbling and where you're enveloped.

Why did you remove it? :-(

[delra]

QS, You don't even realize how broken cavalry charges are at the moment... Try 2-3 of the heaviest Carthage cavalry vs a unit of Hastati. You will see that cavalry units merge into one group, walk up right in front of the Hastati, then you'll see them make a 5m charge (what armored horse with an armored rider can even accelerate at that distance, what a dumbass of a commander would order a charge like that?), then you'll see these cavalry men permanently stuck in melee, unable to pull back and reform for another charge, and when you look even closer, if you can be bothered to actually investigate the reported issue rather than discouraging feedback, you'll see individual riders being "magically" pushed back from the melee, move backwards with the animation of moving forward being played, and then executing more useless mini-charges when their distance is that 5 meters again, not hitting individual infantry guys they are supposed to be aiming these charges at.

If you want devastating cavalry charges, where they can carry the day by themselves, I suggest you go look for another mod that caters for that. Because this is not that mod.

There's a huge gap between "carry the day by themselves" and "can't effectively defeat a freaking Hastati in open terrain 3 on 1". Maybe you go look for another mod with totally broken cavalry on AI and unit level and play that, while we fix the thing in EB2. Which z3n already said he'd try to do, so I don't even know what your problem here is? Are you ordering z3n to leave cavalry as-is? :-)

[HaHawk]

QS, You don't even realize how broken cavalry charges are at the moment... Try 2-3 of the heaviest Carthage cavalry vs a unit of Hastati.

Are you playing the most recent version of EBII? I just tried what you said on Very Hard difficulty and gave the AI only a single unit of heavy cavalry (instead of "2-3") and the Hastati were sorely beaten. Worst of all, the enemy cavalry didn't even charge because the AI chose a "high ground defense tactic" due to the odds factoring, which showed a calculation of 60:40 in my favor. In other words, the heavy cavalry won in a pure melee against the Hastati even without the charge bonus. This was after they were peppered by two volleys of pila and charged by the Hastati, I may add. The heavy cavalry still won decisively.

In a separate test of 3 hastati vs. 2 units of Carthaginian infantry + 1 unit of heavy cavalry, I only narrowly won with an "average victory" because the AI Carthaginian cavalry unit pulled off 3 successful charges (i.e., withdrawing and re-charging). What is your difficulty level set at? Perhaps you should try Very Hard?

As for your own charges, be sure to always use a double-click order with cavalry. Single click works fine too, but with the lowered charge distances, it makes much more sense to already have your cavalry moving at full speed than to wait for them to come to a stop before charging like in the past. If you are worried about tiring them out with double-click all the time, you can use waypoints (hold shift). While holding shift, right click once at your desired rally point, then (while still holding shift), double-right click on your target. This way, your cavalry will first saunter into position and then gallop at full speed for the charge.