Lightning war/wins in MTW...

[Axalon]

I (recently) did another set of reference/research-games in raw MTW - more (experimental) lightning-war/wins basically... If any people here want to discuss MTW-related lightning-war/wins any further - this thread is open for business. Share your views on the subject, if you please... Personally, I'm torn...


Background...

Previously I have managed to achieve a turbo-win with Spain in less then 100 turns (see this post), this at supposedly maxed out difficulty in raw MTW - now I wanted to find out if it is/was possible to achieve a win even at the magic 60-turn barrier, or close to it. In other words, to achieve any kind of win at the extreme rate of/or a close equivalent to 1 province per turn (or close), and that in the first 60-turns (or close)... Obviously, this at expert-setting, default unit-size and the early-era for a combined maxed out difficulty/challenge. Furthermore, I use no cheats, no mercenaries, no peasants, or any other unserious troops allowed as garrisons (e.g. spearmen, urban-boys etc. etc.), no alliances have been/or can be betrayed... And, only troops that I am seriously willing to deploy in combat is/was used/allowed/built, this at all times... All the usual stuff when I do this kind of experiments...

I already knew that all this will (probably) never happen in modern versions/betas of Redux (see same post), even to achieve a win south of a 100 turns seems really impossible regardless what you do, so obviously 60 turns would be an even more hopeless scenario. However, in raw MTW the circumstances are different and I thought it was worth a shot as it would/will bring new light, interesting contexts, perspectives, references on raw MTW and Redux alike (and possibly even other work done for MTW). All stuff that I think are well worth further discussion somehow, or so I would argue....




The Italians... First I decided to try this stuff with Italy... Overall, I think I ended up with a good run as I was offered victory at 71 turns - however that is nowhere close to a success in regards to the goals as specified in the intended context here. I started my first war in 1100 AD and was at war from that point onwards with at least 1 faction all the time... I had a constant shortage of cash the initial 40-50 turns, and I could not produce enough troops, or these fast enough, to have any honest prospect of reaching a win at the magic 60-barrier... The Papacy, which was the very first faction I killed, re-emerged on me probably 10 times and typically with lots of troops that was much better then the ones I had - as a result my casualties was high every time (I actually never managed to tech-up that high in the entire campaign! No time, no cash!). I was thus forced to have a standing (serious) army available in the area all the time - troops I certainly could used much better elsewhere - especially in this given context...




The Danes... Having learned some valuable lessons on my Italian run I concluded that a different and even faster approach was clearly needed (and that without bending/disregarding the outlined rules). The Danes - due to their Viking-units - were probably the best shot I would get at this, despite all things, such as my inexperience of the faction, for starters. After all, it would be the first time I ever tried to play the Danes (seriously) but all the same I believed that the Vikings would still be the thing that would eventually decide the outcome here and not my inexperience with that particular faction. Besides, the Viking-units have all the traits needed to get a decent shot at the 60-barrier, they are easy to build, cheap and good enough in battle at the same time - just the very stuff one would need in this context....

I started my first regular war at 1100 AD with the HRE as they had Saxony and that was my only way out (I had no ships). Once Saxony was secured I put that war on hold and turned east towards Russia - which was the first faction I actually killed in this campaign. Once that had happened I could finally get my hands on some much needed (steppe) cavalry units, which I tried to build as fast as possible too. I had a serious and constant problem with cash-flow to build all the troops necessary for expansion and taking ever new provinces. Resulting in that my tech-development was typically very low, which in turn meant that I had to make due with Vikings regardless until I managed to conquer some castle with a little more tech-development. I had no cash or time for any serious development anywhere basically... It would take me some 40 turns at least before my economy was not in constant state of crisis, but even then it was still not strong enough to actually keep up with events. It only got that strong in my 5-10 last turns or something...

Anyhow, after have expanding like crazy from Russia southwards to the desert, and westwards towards France, HRE and Italy, and building ridiculous amounts of troops in the process - every turn - I was closing in on the 60-barrier. At turn 50, I realized that I actually had a shot at it - If I somehow managed to expand/take 3-5 provinces every turn up to that point (and then keep them). Long story short, after some very tough last turns I was eventually offered victory at turn 59!!! It just seemed incredible to me that I would actually manage to go south of the 60-barrier but apparently that is exactly what I did with the Danes... I doubt that any other faction would enable a repeat of that deed (or close to it). Ergo, I basically think that the Danes are probably a condition for this kind of lightning-war/win-stunt... Anyhow, I smell a record here somewhere....

Thoughts? If any?


-A

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

So is the whale road open now?

[Axalon]

I sure hope so... Galvanized...

Anyways... Due to another thread, at another forum altogether (da Org, click on image below to get there), and some interesting posts made there by Valer (maybe he is a member here too?)... I thus recently returned to the world of "blitzkrieg" and experimenting on poor 'ol MTW (raw). And made some very unexpected and interesting discoveries (for me) on all that. Here is a recap of what triggered it...

I think we should point out that Valer did achieve such good results by doing this with a different "set of rules" then I used - in my previous entries/posts. After all, I made a point of not using "low and easy-units" like peasants, spearmen and urban boys in my runs/campaigns - much in contrast to Valer who used whatever units available to him as he raced against/towards the "60-barrier". Obviously, all my previous remarks on factions and speed in general are hopelessly colored by that very fact, and evidently utterly irrelevant in Valers campaigns. As has been also clearly demonstrated here, by Valer. Using an "Axalon-set-of-rules" will unquestionably slow things down and make things harder somehow, while a "Valer-set of rules" (in short, use whatever units available to you. Minus all mercenaries, as I understand it) will be easier and faster somehow. There is little doubt to be had on all that. All the same, the "Axalon-set of rules" are not (and never was) mandatory for people to follow, and folks are obviously free to play it in any way they like. Just like Valer did. That said...

Upon seeing Valers last run (campaign) with the Egyptians and only 44 turns... My jaw basically dropped, and it clearly made the 60-barrier less formidable if a "Valer-set of rules" was used - evidently. So, what to do? Instead of stupidly trying to enforce the "Axalon-set of rules" upon the rest of the world on this note, I simply decided to rather just adapt and adjust here... Play with the "Valer-set of rules" and see whatever happens... And ultimately see how the "60-barrier" fits into all that... Here is what I ended up with...

And that was...


Yup! 30 freaking turns! I never imagined that something like that was actually possible in MTW, but clearly it is. This also means that the "60-barrier" is nowhere as formidable as I previously suspected
it to be. Evidently! This at expert, default unit-size, no alliances, mercenaries and cheats. I used whatever units was available to me - save mercs. Had I used mercs too, I could possibly have managed
to cut a few more turns. It's probably a kind of record, right there... I never ever heard of anybody actually beating raw MTW in less then 30, 40 or even 50 turns until now...


Any thoughts and comments?

- A

[Axalon]

And another one.... Strudel unt sauerkraut-season are back all over Europe!



27 turns! Jawohl! Ze Germans! This at expert, default unit-size, no alliances, mercenaries and cheats. I used whatever units was available to me - save mercs. Yup the Germans are back up in the lead, cooking sauerkraut and dominating Europe yet again... Seriously, this will probably mark the end of my blitz-adventures in “Early” as the HRE is probably the last solid faction that could ever hope to somehow rival Byzantium as a favourable starting point for doing this kind of turbo-haha-nonsense in raw MTW. This time I really had lousy generals all over – the best one I got eventually earned up to 4 stars - and my troops were really not much to look at either. I lost a few battles in this run because of all that. I was reminded several times why I hate low grade troops so much. Running around like chickens instead of fighting as soldiers. And the Pope? I killed him and his minions as soon as I was in position to do so, as usual...

If I do more of this silly hyper-blitzing across the map it will probably be in “High” from now on. Its probably the only viable option left for this kind of nonsense because I don’t think I can get much lower/faster in “Early” anyways. Then again, just a few days ago I said that someone ever going below 30 turns seemed doubtful in “Early”. Nah, I think I do this in “High” from now on, with all them juicy castles. I rather conquer a castle then build it, and save myself a lot of precious time and coin in the process. Anyhow, this is ridiculous... Beating MTW1 in less then 30 turns...

- A

[Ironlich]

Honestly, i don't like the fact that you can win the game so easily even at max difficulty. There is no way i lose, whatever faction i've been playing. It's always a win situation because the AI doesn't expand much, and it often gets excommunicated and/or let their provinces rebel. I wish there was a way to fix this and make the game actually hard to beat.

[Axalon]

Honestly, i don't like the fact that you can win the game so easily even at max difficulty. There is no way i lose, whatever faction i've been playing. It's always a win situation because the AI doesn't expand much, and it often gets excommunicated and/or let their provinces rebel.

To be honest, I am not that thrilled about the general circumstance either... As you said, I have done all of the above on maxed out difficulty. As hard as it possibly can get with the default designs and still I have been able to get all these fantastic and ridiculous results in the raw game. If anything - I think - its a receipt on that the original-designs of MTW does not hold up to or can successfully handle a skilled enough players, if put to the test. Sad but true...

I wish there was a way to fix this and make the game actually hard to beat.

There is... Its basically spelled "download, install and play Redux" (or if you prefer to do all the work yourself, then that would be yet another option for you). Why do you think I created the damn thing in the first place? Basically, a solid and publicly tested solution is already available - either you will recognize and act upon that, or you won't and don't. Either grab that existing solution, and make the best of it (possibly create a sub-mod for it, if need be), or you don't... If the latter, you are obviously stuck with the general problem - the given consequence for ignoring the available solution to it. Either way, Redux is as hard as it gets in MTW. If you truly want a harder, tougher and more challenging MTW-experience, there it is... Its your call if you want to grab that ride or not. The alternative is there...

- A

[Ironlich]

Thx for the advice, i' ve tried to download MTW Redux but it says error, file doesn't exist. What am i doing wrong?

[HUtH]

Raw MTW means no VI?

Anyway I like playing Med slowly, do some stupid narrative/roleplay gameplay. The urge to blitz is always high, but such power gaming is not my thing.

Have you tried Almohads? Safe position, sea connections, cash and Almohad Urban Militia? Army with few units of them made in Granada(+1 valour) can just go through whole Europe to Khazar/Muscovy just for fun of making orange strip on map.

[Axalon]

Raw MTW means no VI?

Makes no difference... I could do the same stunt utterly regardless the version. The circumstances are the same. The game is the same (in these given and extreme circumstances, anyhow).

Anyway I like playing Med slowly, do some stupid narrative/roleplay gameplay. The urge to blitz is always high, but such power gaming is not my thing.

Well... Its not about preference or style, its rather about making the point that the raw game is not actually challenging - despite many claims of otherwise. I have just proved that to the extreme, and no one can reasonably argue with the results I have had and posted here. For years various people have claimed that and/or acted like this game was somehow tough, and I have shown here that its just a load of BS. Its simply not true... After all, I can beat this game in less then 30 turns even - this on maxed out difficulty.

Have you tried Almohads? Safe position, sea connections, cash and Almohad Urban Militia? Army with few units of them made in Granada(+1 valour) can just go through whole Europe to Khazar/Muscovy just for fun of making orange strip on map.

Again... I did not do this - initially - for sport, but to make a point, and set a reference. To spark a discussion about the subject... Using my results as a starting-point/reference for such a discussion. As it turns out, most people in the supposed "MTW-micro-community" seemingly hates it when I post this kind of stuff as it has been remarkably silent in this thread whenever I post up another result. Compare to similar threads for MTW2 for instance. The difference is huge, more so then MTW2 just being more popular - I think anyways...

Regardless, I don't like Muslim factions much anyhow, they don't suit/cater to my combat-style, especially so in raw MTW. All the same, my guess would be that I probably could do the Almohads in 40 turns or less. I doubt I will need much more then that for 'em. That's my rough estimate anyways.

- A

[Axalon]

A small update on this thread... I did this stunt in November, but all the same...



"It was time for croissants, wine and French wenches..." France, High - 29 turns... Faster then what I did with the Byzantines even...

- A

[Lance Runolfsson]

Axalon I really enjoyed this thread. I am not a really good player but it inspired me to try something different to see how fast I could go with the Danes. Normal level Gold edition Steam version. Usually I build a merchant empire than go fighting. I did not know how powerful the Vikings were You can really get a lot of millage out of them the Thrals are not bad either for killing knights. I assume that you fight a lot of low odds tactical battles every turn to get the expansion rates you do? and must be putting down rebellions left and right if you don't use peasants for garrisons? I can fight defensive battles at .75 to 1 and win most of the time but need 1 to 1 on offensive if not to get flanked unless the enemy is lower quality. I did not realize how much money you can make expanding fast but you need to keep going or you drop in to negative income and it is very hard to build anything. So is very rough if you start getting hit by a cavalry army like the Hungarians. Anyway thanks again.

[Lance Runolfsson]

Oh and! Currious as to what type of troop mix you were running with the Danes? I was running just Vikings and Thralls the Bowmen don't seem to do much compared to Shogun. But I was sad I did not build some Horsemen later on.

[CountMRVHS]

This is an entertaining thread, even if I'm not sure how much it proves about the base game. For one, it should come as no surprise that blitz tactics are very effective against the AI (all the more so when executed by veteran players). I would probably agree that this type of blitzing is easier in MTW than in later titles that dispensed with the Risk-style map. But it's also generally understood that any Total War release is going to be easier than its mods. At any rate, glad this has gotten a few people back into the old game. After 15 years it still has a draw!

[Aclotheses]

Hehehe, The Straw Man Cometh... tut tut Artifex, this is a fairly obvious stunt, trying to whip up some controversy with the other vets just to get extra attention for your speed runs (which are pretty impressive nonetheless). Everybody knows that, given enough repeat runs, you can second guess the AI pretty easily. MTW still stands up as a decent strategy game after 15 years, and that is impressive. It takes a while to learn the flow and feel of the game, and it doesn't give up all its secrets straightaway. All this has made many people revisit it on Steam (myself included) like a familiar friend. Don't be mean about a true classic just to promote your own exploits. That's not the way to win friends and admirers. I am intrigued by your Redux mod though, I'll be checking that out. I hope it doesn't just use cheap tricks to make the game harder (AI gets fake economy, uber units, sees your moves, breaks alliances all the time, gangs together against the player from the start etc etc). I've been trying a bit of XL and some of the extra units seem outrageous in that regard. Also, somehow Mounted Crossbowmen are now the best cavalry in the game!?! Anyway, that's off-topic really. I'll try your mod and see if you can build as good a game as you talk. =P

[Matthewcthf]

A small update on this thread... I did this stunt in November, but all the same...



"It was time for croissants, wine and French wenches..." France, High - 29 turns... Faster then what I did with the Byzantines even...

- A

Wow you may just be the best M1TW player ever. I think LegendofTotalWar needs to give your challenge a go. that would be awesome. In his Dane campaign he did a year ago he said you could not blitz in M1TW. I don't think he has seen this thread. He may be the best M2TW [;ayer but hands down you have M1TW beat. Great job.

[Axalon]

High time I (and others!) posted some more comments here...

Lance Runolfsson...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Axalon I really enjoyed this thread. I am not a really good player but it inspired me to try something different to see how fast I could go with the Danes.

That's great man! I certainly hoped for that as I wrote my first posts here. Anyways, trying new stuff and things can be very interesting at times. This thread and its forwarded results show that. I mean it has definitely changed my views on MTW (more then once actually), and especially so with the raw game, but also regarding my own mod/project Redux as well... I will happily admit that I initially had serious motives of investigation, reference and experiments in mind - at first - but eventually all this ended up as sheer frivolous sport after my “HRE-run”. It was very hard for me to take it seriously after that…

I assume that you fight a lot of low odds tactical battles every turn to get the expansion rates you do?

Yup, I had fight plenty of tough fights (and I have lost a bunch too, due to not having enough and/or right troops available) with the Danes - actually that goes for any faction that played these express/turbo-games on. Not that I have done that many - its about 5-6 games in total maybe. I only did 3 games with "Valer-rules". So most (or all?) of them have been posted here. In the case of the Danes, French and Byzantines it was the first time I have ever played them. I have played the HRE some 2-3 times before, prior to this experiment...

I think much of my success is due to that I have played "muchos" MTW, and for a long time. I know fairly well what each troop can endure in battle before they break and flee. I have also played tons of Redux which is much harder all over in comparison. You (eventually) adjust to that (harder environment), and once you go back to Raw-MTW (for whatever reason) then basically everything is easy. At least for me.

and must be putting down rebellions left and right if you don't use peasants for garrisons?

I usually relied on towers (and borderfort) more then anything... Whenever I could get my hands on spies, I used them too... I basically can't waste precious troops for garrisons! I have no time or resources for that essentially, I need them (the troops) to fight on!

it is very hard to build anything.

This is true... I rarely have enough cash to build like I want in these turbo-games... Its hard to avoid...

Oh and! Currious as to what type of troop mix you were running with the Danes? I was running just Vikings and Thralls the Bowmen don't seem to do much compared to Shogun. But I was sad I did not build some Horsemen later on.

For the Danes I used mostly viking-units. Using the "Valer-rules" I would have now thrown in some spearmen for additional numbers. Also, once I get enough eastward I try to build some steppe cavalry, as they are very useful in these extreme games.

----------

CountMRVHS...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is an entertaining thread,...

I certainly tried get there... Thanks (again)...

...even if I'm not sure how much it proves about the base game.

For starters, it does show - beyond doubt - that it is possible to win in less then 10% of the allotted time for playing the entire game. That circumstance can't be deliberate and intended. The game is (by design) limited to 364 turns to be completed - I have posted (thus far) 3 examples which are completed in 30 turns or less. Sure, it was not "easy" to get there, but I did manage it all the same, three times over, and with three different factions - and in two cases with factions I had never played before (Byzantines and France). This on maxed out difficulty, every time... You do the math, and make your own conclusions out of those facts.

For one, it should come as no surprise that blitz tactics are very effective against the AI (all the more so when executed by veteran players).

Blitz-tactics will only go so far… It eventually boils down to game-designs and AI-performance. And I have previously argued, that this could (and should) have been better, in both cases. Look at STW1… There is no way you could win like that in STW1. Conclusion, the designs where better crafted and tested there. There is a silverlining however, as these things CAN be improved somehow in MTW1 by various work, redesigns and modding…

I would probably agree that this type of blitzing is easier in MTW than in later titles that dispensed with the Risk-style map.

My guess is that RTW is probably about same as MTW1 in terms of achieving fast wins - while in MTW2 it is clearly much “easier” to get even more redicolous wins due to the Jihad-flaw there – the record sits at some 6 turns, last I checked… So, I disagree… At least in terms of MTW2. As for Empire and later, I don’t really care.

But it's also generally understood that any Total War release is going to be easier than its mods.

True… However, the trick is not making a game harder/more challenging – essentially any idiot can do that. The trick is rather making/crafting designs that allows it (the mod/game) to perform and function better as a game. Fixing, removing and counter weaknesses. That is not easily done, usually. And it requires a lot of live testing as well…

At any rate, glad this has gotten a few people back into the old game. After 15 years it still has a draw!

There is no doubt that this game has still a lot of potential… Even today… After STW1, I think it has the best battles in TW (this on general terms)…

----------

Aclotheses...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hehehe, The Straw Man Cometh... tut tut Artifex, this is a fairly... ... ...

Give me a break… Am I supposed to take this BS seriously? The only straw-man I see is the one you dragged in here. And yeah, the irony of that circumstance is not entirely lost on me….

----------

Matthewcthf...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Wow you may just be the best M1TW player ever. I think LegendofTotalWar needs to give your challenge a go. that would be awesome. In his Dane campaign he did a year ago he said you could not blitz in M1TW. I don't think he has seen this thread. He may be the best M2TW [;ayer but hands down you have M1TW beat. Great job.

Thanks man, my guess is that this “legend-dude” (I don’t know him) have not seen this thread. If he had, he would not make such claims, now would he? As we all know (now) that it is quite possible to blitz left and right in raw MTW. But, it will never reach MTW2-levels due to better designs (I would argue). I mean, those results (in MTW2) are even more ridiculous then mine…

- A