Fans suggestion thread for future releases

[Carl Jung was right]

I have some minor gripes with an otherwise gripping KH campaign.

First off, you start with WAY too many somatophylakes bodyguards at the start of the game. I believe you start with 6-7 of what is an incredibly powerful bodyguard unit, easily capable of holding out against most entry level units of the factions you're up against. It basically takes away the effort of facing non-elite stacks that Macedon or Epirus sends at you early on.

A solution I recommend is either to reduce the amount of starting characters KH has, change their bodyguards to regular units, or change their types to diplomats or ancillaries. At most you should start the game with only 2-3 stomachflakes.

I find it also strange how the best units in the KH roster, epilektoi and spartiatai hoplitai have much worse stats than the hypaspist. Is there a historical basis to this, or is it just for the sake of game balance?

I do wish the KH had some intermediate unit between the hoplite and the epilektoi hoplite in the later periods, such as for example, a thorakitai hoplite.

[QuintusSertorius]

The starting KH "family tree" is intentional to give a different experience compared to the other Hellenistic factions. In 2.35, one of those is being changed to Hippeis, because he wasn't part of the ruling set, but otherwise it's unchanged. There's a new tree, some of the characters who started before, like Chremonides, have actually been turned into Diplomats.

Epilektoi have near-identical stats to the Hypaspistai (only difference is defensive skill). Spartiatai are a whole class, not an elite, as such, so of course Epilektoi and Hypaspistai are better.

[Carl Jung was right]

The starting KH "family tree" is intentional to give a different experience compared to the other Hellenistic factions. In 2.35, one of those is being changed to Hippeis, because he wasn't part of the ruling set, but otherwise it's unchanged. There's a new tree, some of the characters who started before, like Chremonides, have actually been turned into Diplomats.

Epilektoi have near-identical stats to the Hypaspistai (only difference is defensive skill). Spartiatai are a whole class, not an elite, as such, so of course Epilektoi and Hypaspistai are better.

The problem I have with lots of family tree members is well...what to do with them? It only makes sense to put one to govern each of your starting cities, but even then you are still left with IIRC 7 of them, not counting others coming of age and getting married into your family. So it stands to reason the player would tend to put them in a single stack along with the regular army units who they, at least early on, generally outperform even with their small size. In addition, you can also recruit about 2-3 epilektoi hoplitai from your starting cities. As a result, at least 2/3 of your infantry force would compose of epilektoi models, what is supposed to be an elite unit historically fielded in small numbers! Which is why I am proposing a change in bodyguard unit for these starting generals and perhaps an additional starting unit class available for KH faction recruitment. Otherwise it would suggest that late Hellenic armies brimmed with top grade polis units. Didn't they actually have some sort of thureos bearing Iphikrates reform troop? An intermediate early unit, more durable than the hemithorax but more mobile than the hoplite would be very much desired.

[Palaiogos]

Can we have more information about the religions in the flavour text? It seems that the flavour text for temples seems less than EB I. I mean, it’s also so that I won’t forget to study for my mythology class

[Neyak]

On the screen that tells you about raiding near the beginning of a campaign, it says that you can no longer raid once you have over 10 provinces or your culture changes to Eastern Imperial. That may be technically true for all raiding faction but it seems like an odd thing to say for factions that will never become Eastern Imperial anyway (noticed it in my what-am-I-going-to-play-between-now-and-when-2.35-comes-out Getai campagin). Maybe just take that part out of the text for factions for which it is irrelevant?

[QuintusSertorius]

On the screen that tells you about raiding near the beginning of a campaign, it says that you can no longer raid once you have over 10 provinces or your culture changes to Eastern Imperial. That may be technically true for all raiding faction but it seems like an odd thing to say for factions that will never become Eastern Imperial anyway (noticed it in my what-am-I-going-to-play-between-now-and-when-2.35-comes-out Getai campagin). Maybe just take that part out of the text for factions for which it is irrelevant?

That means more than one popup, which complicates a simple notification.

[Guils]

I'd like to have colony points from poleis for the hellenistic factions, not just the large cities, although it would give less settlers (of course). A place telling you how much points you have (or how long before the next one) would also be nice. The Bosporos Kingdom is a bit dull to play without the possibility to colonise the Black Sea. You have to go as far as Macedon or Pergamon to get these points, which is not really historical...

[QuintusSertorius]

The problem I have with lots of family tree members is well...what to do with them? It only makes sense to put one to govern each of your starting cities, but even then you are still left with IIRC 7 of them, not counting others coming of age and getting married into your family. So it stands to reason the player would tend to put them in a single stack along with the regular army units who they, at least early on, generally outperform even with their small size. In addition, you can also recruit about 2-3 epilektoi hoplitai from your starting cities. As a result, at least 2/3 of your infantry force would compose of epilektoi models, what is supposed to be an elite unit historically fielded in small numbers! Which is why I am proposing a change in bodyguard unit for these starting generals and perhaps an additional starting unit class available for KH faction recruitment. Otherwise it would suggest that late Hellenic armies brimmed with top grade polis units. Didn't they actually have some sort of thureos bearing Iphikrates reform troop? An intermediate early unit, more durable than the hemithorax but more mobile than the hoplite would be very much desired.

There's been an update of bodyguard units, and for the human player KH starts with no Epilektoi available.

I'd like to have colony points from poleis for the hellenistic factions, not just the large cities, although it would give less settlers (of course). A place telling you how much points you have (or how long before the next one) would also be nice. The Bosporos Kingdom is a bit dull to play without the possibility to colonise the Black Sea. You have to go as far as Macedon or Pergamon to get these points, which is not really historical...

It's not changing, I'm afraid. The reasoning behind it is requiring a certain critical mass of Greeks before colonisation is available. Note you don't have to go to Makedonia or Pergamon as the Bosporans; growing Khersonesos to a polis_two and taking Sinope will do it very easily. A polis_three isn't the only way, holding three polis_two's will give you colonists as well.

There's no feasible way to give feedback on colony points without resorting to annoying popups or the like.

[Guils]

It's not changing, I'm afraid. The reasoning behind it is requiring a certain critical mass of Greeks before colonisation is available. Note you don't have to go to Makedonia or Pergamon as the Bosporans; growing Khersonesos to a polis_two and taking Sinope will do it very easily. A polis_three isn't the only way, holding three polis_two's will give you colonists as well.

There's no feasible way to give feedback on colony points without resorting to annoying popups or the like.

But how do you grow Khersonesos to a polis_two without colonists?

Another way would be to have a special building which would allow you to "call" colonists from Greece to found a colony (in effect upgrade a polis), but would cost money (with perhaps some conditions, like good relations with mainland Greek factions, overhaul reputation, Greek temple in the province, etc.).

I wouldn't mind a popup every year (so every four turns). I also noticed that when you put the polis upgrade building in the building queue and then remove it, you lose a colonist point.

[Ivir Baggins]

But how do you grow Khersonesos to a polis_two without colonists?

Another way would be to have a special building which would allow you to "call" colonists from Greece to found a colony (in effect upgrade a polis), but would cost money (with perhaps some conditions, like good relations with mainland Greek factions, overhaul reputation, Greek temple in the province, etc.).

I wouldn't mind a popup every year (so every four turns). I also noticed that when you put the polis upgrade building in the building queue and then remove it, you lose a colonist point.

IIRC expanding a polis only requires a certain level of culture. Founding a new one or building a level of colony does require points as well as culture, however.

[QuintusSertorius]

But how do you grow Khersonesos to a polis_two without colonists?

Time and culture conversion, you only need colonists to establish a new polis building, not to upgrade them. All you need to do is get it's level of Hellenistic Polities (rel_h) to 49% (it starts at 40%). Having a high influence governor present will help things along a great deal.

As soon as you have two more polis_two buildings and thus colonists, your first act could be to put a new polis in Olbia, which will start accelerating your colonisation.

Another way would be to have a special building which would allow you to "call" colonists from Greece to found a colony (in effect upgrade a polis), but would cost money (with perhaps some conditions, like good relations with mainland Greek factions, overhaul reputation, Greek temple in the province, etc.).

I wouldn't mind a popup every year (so every four turns).

Sorry, but we have no plans to change how colonisation works. In places at the fringes of the Greek world, it's harder. You already have a let on the way things were originally designed in that you can get "critical mass" from three polis_two's rather than only working with a polis_three.

Popups saying the same thing get annoying very quickly, not to mention if it told you exactly how many points you had, there'd have to be one for each number. Potentially up to 30-something or higher, which is just multiplying complexity for a very small benefit.

I also noticed that when you put the polis upgrade building in the building queue and then remove it, you lose a colonist point.

There should be no interaction between polis upgrades and colony points. But the loss of points with queue-cancelling (which would happen with a Hellenistic Colony) is a hardcoded problem, all I can suggest is don't do it.

[Lusitanio]

I would like to suggest creating a Lusitanian revolt or Iberian Revolt event when some of the major Lusitanian cities are conquered by civilized factions like Rome and Carthage.
I know some have said the same about the jewish revolts but those revolts were like 13 years in total, while the Lusitanian revolts/wars started around 193 BC, went to 153 BC with the Numantine War, continued to 139 BC with the tribesmen surrender to Laenas and the fight only really ended by Augustus time.

Therefore, I think this should be better discussed. It could be an event where a lot of rebel stacks appear on the Iberian Peninsula or an event where the Iberian factions receibe 2/3 stacks of troops with an increase in the kings purse to pay for the upkeep of those armies.
I think increasing the number of rebels that appear in conquered Iberian cities would be good to but I have doubts about for how long they would appear.

What is the team opinion about this?

[QuintusSertorius]

Asturia-Kantabria is in the Troublesome Regions script.

Otherwise, the bandit spawn chances are quite high compared to other places in the descr_rebel_factions for Iberia.

Whether there should be a more concerted representation of disorder, like the special treatment Liguria and Galatia get, I don't know.

[Lusitanio]

I think it should have that special treatment like Liguria and Galatia.
Mainly for historical reasons (all the troubles they gave to the Romans and Carthaginians) but also because I conquered the Iberian Peninsula as Carthage and I can say that besides some rebels appearing and having to put more troops as garrison (also because of the distance) the Iberian Peninsula was a heaven, I never had to worry about it and, in fact, I even managed to conquer it quite easily because the Lusitanian and the Aeruokoi (don't remember the name) were always fighting each other.
My point is, the Iberian Peninsula was a very hard place to conquer, taking around 100 years to subdue and lot of casualties for the Romans and Carthaginians. I can present this argument with articles if you want but I think the Iberian Wars are pretty well documented despite not being as famous as the Makedonian Wars and the Third Punic War. So there should be a lot more disorder there!

[QuintusSertorius]

I think it should have that special treatment like Liguria and Galatia.
Mainly for historical reasons (all the troubles they gave to the Romans and Carthaginians) but also because I conquered the Iberian Peninsula as Carthage and I can say that besides some rebels appearing and having to put more troops as garrison (also because of the distance) the Iberian Peninsula was a heaven, I never had to worry about it and, in fact, I even managed to conquer it quite easily because the Lusitanian and the Aeruokoi (don't remember the name) were always fighting each other.
My point is, the Iberian Peninsula was a very hard place to conquer, taking around 100 years to subdue and lot of casualties for the Romans and Carthaginians. I can present this argument with articles if you want but I think the Iberian Wars are pretty well documented despite not being as famous as the Makedonian Wars and the Third Punic War. So there should be a lot more disorder there!

Trarco agrees with you, and since he is our authority on Iberia, it shall be done.

[jdofo]

I think it should have that special treatment like Liguria and Galatia.
Mainly for historical reasons (all the troubles they gave to the Romans and Carthaginians) but also because I conquered the Iberian Peninsula as Carthage and I can say that besides some rebels appearing and having to put more troops as garrison (also because of the distance) the Iberian Peninsula was a heaven, I never had to worry about it and, in fact, I even managed to conquer it quite easily because the Lusitanian and the Aeruokoi (don't remember the name) were always fighting each other.
My point is, the Iberian Peninsula was a very hard place to conquer, taking around 100 years to subdue and lot of casualties for the Romans and Carthaginians. I can present this argument with articles if you want but I think the Iberian Wars are pretty well documented despite not being as famous as the Makedonian Wars and the Third Punic War. So there should be a lot more disorder there!

Trarco agrees with you, and since he is our authority on Iberia, it shall be done.

Yes, thank you so much!!! This is so much needed and historically correct as well... It was far more troublesome for Rome to fully subjugate Hispania (around 2 centuries) than Gaul with Caesar, but the fame is in other wars.

[Lusitanio]

Well, that's great
I tried to resume the wars on the Iberian Peninsula:

While taking + 100 years, and reports saying that war between the Romans and Lusitanians started in 194 BC, the wars on the Iberian Peninsula can be mainly focused on 7 great conflicts:
1 - There are reports of revolts of the Punic colonists on the Iberian Peninsula after the Second Punic War but couldn't find a reference
2 - First Celtiberian War - 181 BC - 179 BC
3 - Second Celtiberian War - 154 BC - 151 BC
4 - Lusitanian Wars - 155 BC - 150 BC and 5 - the Revolt led by Viriathus - 147 BC - 139 BC
6 - Numantine War - 143 BC - 133 BC (they were incited by the Lusitanian revolt)
7 -Cantabrian and Asturian War - 29 BC - 19 BC (war waged against the last independent celtic nations of Hispania) - Minor rebellions until 16 BC and local resistance was such there that the Romans had to station 2 legions there for more 70 years.

There is also the Sertorian War from 80 BC to 72 BC, a conflict during the Roman Civil War in which a coalition of Iberian Tribes (mainly Lusitanian) and Romans led by Quintus Sertorius fought against the regime established by Sulla.

BTW: I don't know how you plan to do it but the Wars were mainly against the tribes while they dominated the territory. So, I think that if the faction controls all the territories in the north and center of the Iberian Peninsula, the heavy resistance by the tribes should end and be like it was before with some bandits appearing and the troublesome regions script.

[Lusitanio]

Some time ago, I wrote on this thread about changing the position of ports, especially in Carthage, like it was done in the Roma Surrectum sub mod, When Worlds Collide, to make it feel more realistic in game, however, I didn't showed any picture.

So here it is:



By the way, you can also see in this link how the sub mod author placed the ports in Atiqa and Alexandria
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...e61&styleid=41

[mAIOR]

I think missile damage should be nerfed. Missiles were not battle winners. They were more harassing tools trying to break formations and reduce morale. For that reason I think that units should only use flame shot (with normal shot animation) and have their damage slightly reduced. This way missile damage will break formations while causing less casualties giving them a chance to return to the battle. Just my 2cts.

[QuintusSertorius]

I think missile damage should be nerfed. Missiles were not battle winners. They were more harassing tools trying to break formations and reduce morale. For that reason I think that units should only use flame shot (with normal shot animation) and have their damage slightly reduced. This way missile damage will break formations while causing less casualties giving them a chance to return to the battle. Just my 2cts.

We like the combat balance exactly as it is; making missiles less effective than they are will result in battles that only require melee infantry which invalidates a whole host of other unit types. Missiles are only a threat to unarmoured troops from their unshielded quarters, which is what is intended. So we're not changing things.

You're more than welcome to edit their impact in your own game, though.