Fans suggestion thread for future releases

[DaGrenadier]

The hellenic thureophoroi roster could use a visual upgrade as well as the peltastai makedones, hetairoi and somatophylakes strategoi

[Gurkhal]

I'm back with a suggestion for a system, or sub-system or whatever, to the game regarding the characters. That is a protege-system. I know nothing about modding so the details are not very interesting to me but the greater point of the idea is something which I would like to see implemented.

Proteges

The main reason for this suggestion is that I noticed that in armies with several characters present only the general gains traits and gets command scores, same with cities and governors, and I think that this is unlikely to actually be the case. Its my understanding that characters represent the absolute social, political and economic top of a faction's society and thus if they are in an army or city, they're going to help out from high posts in the management of that army or city rather than just shoot the breeze and do nothing special with their time. I can understand that characters going through some form of education, like the Spartan agoge would not be up for this, but there can be many characters hanging out in an army or city and not seemingly doing much with their time.

Thus I would suggest that there would be a chance for a younger character, say between 16-24 years, to can gain a "protege" trait if he fullfills certain conditions, like charisma, intelligence, etc. from being in an army or settlement. If a character becomes a protege he must stay with that army or city to gain benefits, and if he leaves he also losses the protege trait and its effects, but thus can get traits from essentially being nurtured into command by a more experienced teacher/patron.

I'll try to illustrate my point below with an example.

Say we have Korinthos, the city, and we have a 46 year old governor with a "Influence" level at 6. Now we move a 19 year old character into that city there will be a chance that the younger character gain a protege trait and can get, just like if he was a governor, traits and increased "Influence" to be a governor just like if he was a governor in his own city, even if the chance might be somewhat lower as a protege.

So...

I think this would help with an additional RP aspect, hopefully deepen character management and also add an aspect of history into the mod which I haven't seen much of right now. I don't think that for example Alexander the Great would have been able to conduct the storm of activity right from ascension if he didn't already had learned a thing or two about command while serving under his father or that the many generals fighting it out after Alexander's death clearly learn a thing or two about fighting and commanding even while Alexander was always the top general of the army.

[Roma_Victrix]

I know it probably seems like a minor issue to some of you here, but it would be more immersive and make more sense historically if the colonial settlement of Emporion (Empuries, Spain) had a pre-existing Hellenistic minor polis at the start of the campaign. If Massalia - the chief colonial Greek settlement in Gaul - starts out with a Hellenistic polis, then it stands to reason Emporion should have one as well, it being the most significant colonial Greek settlement in Iberia. Is this simply something that was overlooked? Or is there some reasoning behind why Massalia should have one but Emporion cannot? You can build a polis there as most Hellenistic factions, but not as Koinon Hellenon (which is incapable of doing so, and can only build Supervised Hellenic Administrations after 50% cultural conversion).

[QuintusSertorius]

I know it probably seems like a minor issue to some of you here, but it would be more immersive and make more sense historically if the colonial settlement of Emporion (Empuries, Spain) had a pre-existing Hellenistic minor polis at the start of the campaign. If Massalia - the chief colonial Greek settlement in Gaul - starts out with a Hellenistic polis, then it stands to reason Emporion should have one as well, it being the most significant colonial Greek settlement in Iberia. Is this simply something that was overlooked? Or is there some reasoning behind why Massalia should have one but Emporion cannot? You can build a polis there as most Hellenistic factions, but not as Koinon Hellenon (which is incapable of doing so, and can only build Supervised Hellenic Administrations after 50% cultural conversion).

It wasn't overlooked, the level of Hellenisation there was much smaller than in Massalia. It was a trading post with little evidence of permeation of Hellenic culture into the hinterland. That's why the recruitment pool of the region was adjusted to remove the Greek units from the Allied Government and native pools. There simply weren't enough Greeks to merit that.

[eyelurker]

Should Makedon Epistateia Epi Hellenas be extended a bit? Especially in Ipsos, Salamis and Memphis? Ipsos have lv2 Hellen colony and Salamis and Memphis have lv2 Polis.

I know the reason why Makedon are more restricted in Epistateia epi Hellenas but the region that i mention have too strong of hellenic presence to not build Hellenic administration.

Edit : got a bit worry since this is almost released and at the very least it would be nice if some of the suggestion pull through as the team already did such as reworked Saka revolt and important buffed to both Parthia and Hayastan

[Roma_Victrix]

It wasn't overlooked, the level of Hellenisation there was much smaller than in Massalia. It was a trading post with little evidence of permeation of Hellenic culture into the hinterland. That's why the recruitment pool of the region was adjusted to remove the Greek units from the Allied Government and native pools. There simply weren't enough Greeks to merit that.

Which source(s) are you basing this assumption on? I mean yes, Emporion was not as physically big as Massalia and nowhere near as powerful economically, but it was the largest Greek settlement between Massalia and the important Iberian cities like Tartessos in the south, or Phoenician/Carthaginian Gader.

At the very least Emporion had a huge impact on the neighboring native Iberian city of Indika, and more than that, their minted coinage was used by neighboring Iberians who used it as a model for their own. Greek ceramics were common grave goods in Iberian necropolis tombs, and had a major influence on native Iberian artworks (native Indiketai pottery is literally based on Ionian and then Attic Greek models). If not the Phoenician alphabet, the Greek alphabet appears to be a model used for various northern Iberian writing scripts. Even the Roman historian Livy says that native Iberians from the hinterland and elsewhere traveled long distances to trade agricultural goods for Greek goods that arrived at Emporion by sea, which undoubtedly led to the swelling the native population there. The city's established constitution included a mixture of Greek and Iberian laws.

The city of Emporion was not just a "trading post" as its name eludes, it was a city with a proper agora and acropolis, with temples like those to Artemis, Asclepius, and Zeus-Serapis. It also had various peristyle homes where wealthy Hellenistic Greeks decorated their floors with the latest designs in mosaics, before the Romans built anything similar there. It has a cemetery where at least two thirds of the inhabitants of the city practiced Greek-style burials and roughly a third were native Iberian! That alone confirms that there were plenty of Greeks living there.
Emporion was a "trading post" that became a proper polis: "GREEKS AND NON-GREEKS IN THE CITY OF EMPORION
AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF THEIR DIFFERENT IDENTITIES", by Adolfo J. Domínguez, ELECTRUM, Vol. 20 (2013): 23–36.
Specifically, it grew large in size and became a proper polis after refugees from Phocaea escaped the capture of their mother polis in Anatolia by the Achaemenid Persians.
As the paper acknowledges, 20 km away from Emporion at sites like Mas Castellar at Pontós there is clear evidence that legal contracts were made with Emporion to build underground grain silos and to store cereal crops there, and ultimately the wall of the city was demolished under the influence of Emporion. If that doesn't wreck and negate your conclusion about Emporion's influence on its hinterland, then my name is Elvis Presley.

Moreover, all of those native Iberian towns on the plain around Emporion that stored its grain per legal contract also had the aforementioned Indiketai pottery and imported Attic Greek ceramics found at those sites. This indicates a wide regional expanse of economic control, commercial distribution, and cultural influence. ...You can start calling me Elvis anytime now, you know, or Roma_Victrix.

Emporion also became one of the most significant allies of Rome in the Iberian peninsula during the Second Punic War. Publius Cornelius Scipio had his brother Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus land there with Roman troops to begin the conquest of Carthage's holdings in Iberia. The site was commercially important enough as a crossroads that the Romans began building their own larger town outside the existing Neapolis, called Emporiae, in 195 BC.

[Shoebopp]

Which source(s) are you basing this assumption on? I mean yes, Emporion was not as physically big as Massalia and nowhere near as powerful economically, but it was the largest Greek settlement between Massalia and the important Iberian cities like Tartessos in the south, or Phoenician/Carthaginian Gader.

At the very least Emporion had a huge impact on the neighboring native Iberian city of Indika, and more than that, their minted coinage was used by neighboring Iberians who used it as a model for their own. Greek ceramics were common grave goods in Iberian necropolis tombs, and had a major influence on native Iberian artworks (native Indiketai pottery is literally based on Ionian and then Attic Greek models). If not the Phoenician alphabet, the Greek alphabet appears to be a model used for various northern Iberian writing scripts. Even the Roman historian Livy says that native Iberians from the hinterland and elsewhere traveled long distances to trade agricultural goods for Greek goods that arrived at Emporion by sea, which undoubtedly led to the swelling the native population there. The city's established constitution included a mixture of Greek and Iberian laws.

The city of Emporion was not just a "trading post" as its name eludes, it was a city with a proper agora and acropolis, with temples like those to Artemis, Asclepius, and Zeus-Serapis. It also had various peristyle homes where wealthy Hellenistic Greeks decorated their floors with the latest designs in mosaics, before the Romans built anything similar there. It has a cemetery where at least two thirds of the inhabitants of the city practiced Greek-style burials and roughly a third were native Iberian! That alone confirms that there were plenty of Greeks living there.
Emporion was a "trading post" that became a proper polis: "GREEKS AND NON-GREEKS IN THE CITY OF EMPORION
AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF THEIR DIFFERENT IDENTITIES", by Adolfo J. Domínguez, ELECTRUM, Vol. 20 (2013): 23–36.
Specifically, it grew large in size and became a proper polis after refugees from Phocaea escaped the capture of their mother polis in Anatolia by the Achaemenid Persians.
As the paper acknowledges, 20 km away from Emporion at sites like Mas Castellar at Pontós there is clear evidence that legal contracts were made with Emporion to build underground grain silos and to store cereal crops there, and ultimately the wall of the city was demolished under the influence of Emporion. If that doesn't wreck and negate your conclusion about Emporion's influence on its hinterland, then my name is Elvis Presley.

Moreover, all of those native Iberian towns on the plain around Emporion that stored its grain per legal contract also had the aforementioned Indiketai pottery and imported Attic Greek ceramics found at those sites. This indicates a wide regional expanse of economic control, commercial distribution, and cultural influence. ...You can start calling me Elvis anytime now, you know, or Roma_Victrix.

Emporion also became one of the most significant allies of Rome in the Iberian peninsula during the Second Punic War. Publius Cornelius Scipio had his brother Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus land there with Roman troops to begin the conquest of Carthage's holdings in Iberia. The site was commercially important enough as a crossroads that the Romans began building their own larger town outside the existing Neapolis, called Emporiae, in 195 BC.

Go into /data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt and paste

building
{
	type hinterland_hellenistic_polis polis_one
}

wherever you want. While we're on the topic of Minor Poleis, maybe the following regions should also have a Minor Polis to represent the lingering existence of Greek cities founded during the 7th century BC diaspora, or the recent foundation of cities by Hellenistic Monarchs?

OG Greek colonies
Capua
Scodra
Kabula
Histrie
Olbia
Nikaia
Trapezous

Significant foundations by Hellenistic monarchs
Ptolemais-Akko
Tarsos
Alexandreia-Eschate
Oskabara

If Lilybaeum recently got a Minor Poleis to represent small Greek poleis in the area despite the different dominant settlement, then these regions could use one as well

[Roma_Victrix]

Go into /data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt and paste

building
{
	type hinterland_hellenistic_polis polis_one
}

wherever you want. While we're on the topic of Minor Poleis, maybe the following regions should also have a Minor Polis to represent the lingering existence of Greek cities founded during the 7th century BC diaspora, or the recent foundation of cities by Hellenistic Monarchs?

OG Greek colonies
Capua
Scodra
Kabula
Histrie
Olbia
Nikaia
Trapezous

Significant foundations by Hellenistic monarchs
Ptolemais-Akko
Tarsos
Alexandreia-Eschate
Oskabara

If Lilybaeum recently got a Minor Poleis to represent small Greek poleis in the area despite the different dominant settlement, then these regions could use one as well

Great suggestions! Not opposed to that at all. Unfortunately I'm way into my current campaign to stop and start a new one by adding the polis to Emporion as suggested.

[Gurkhal]

I'm returning to EB2 after a break and working on some suggestions of things I'd like to see in mod which I hope would improve this wonderful modification. I hope I'm not suggesting stuff that's already in the mod and that's I've just not yet experienced.

But anyway...

Native Revolts in Egypt

Inspired by the revolts and reigns of the native Pharaohs Teos, Nektanebos I and Nektanebos II against the Persian Empire and Horwennefer against the Makedonian Ptolemies, I would suggest a risk for native Egyptian revolts.

I realize that this ties into the issue with "Machimoi loyalty" but perhaps a bit more expanded, and something which can affect other conquerors of Egypt as well and not just the Ptolemies.

As I imagine it, if a power holds Egypt and there's sufficient disorder and unhappiness, or in combination with some other trigger, then there's a script that spawns either a single powerful stack or a small cluster of stacks around a native Pharaoh figure along with armies to attack several cities along the Nile which are held by a faction. New armies are spawned to attack/besiege the cities until the Pharaoh has been defeated in battle. If the Pharaoh would die of old age, he would naturally be replaced with a new such figure with the same effects along the Nile.

This would have two effects. To start with it would make any conqueror of Egypt have to be ready to pay attention and be ready to fight for that rich prize. Secondly it would make a conquest of Egypt harder even if there's no faction there to control the territory, and it would simulate organized resistance from a native Egyptian pharaonic kingdom. As opposed to the player being able to wander in and pick off cities and armies one after the other without them cooperating.

Possibly this kind of scenario could be used for other places as well.

[QuintusSertorius]

There's a collection of mechanics relating to native revolts already in the script. One is triggered by the FL being away from Alexandreia too long, another from excessive recruitment of the Machimoi class. Thebaid is also a region more prone to Rebel spawns in the revolts script.

[Gurkhal]

I know about the script. But I personally think that it could be expanded to make Egypt force you to work a bit more for that prize and in case of a victorious rebellion, it won't be as easy as to sweep in and pick off armies and settlements one-by-one without outside interference.

[Maroslav]

Do you intend to add watter bridge(crossing) between Denmark and Sweden? AI is pretty clueless how to deal with eleutheroi spawns there and freeze inadequate ammount of force looking sadly over a sea.

[QuintusSertorius]

Do you intend to add watter bridge(crossing) between Denmark and Sweden? AI is pretty clueless how to deal with eleutheroi spawns there and freeze inadequate ammount of force looking sadly over a sea.

We can't change the map without risking shuffling all the region IDs, which affect traits and ancillaries.

[Maroslav]

We can't change the map without risking shuffling all the region IDs, which affect traits and ancillaries.

There are 2 regions, which frequently spawns rebel stacks with AI responding to it with commiting and freezing stack of its own - Baleares and Denmark-sweden one. Can't say its worth time investment, but i guess forbiding certain regions to spawn a rebels is also hardcoded and impossible to do.

[QuintusSertorius]

There are 2 regions, which frequently spawns rebel stacks with AI responding to it with commiting and freezing stack of its own - Baleares and Denmark-sweden one. Can't say its worth time investment, but i guess forbiding certain regions to spawn a rebels is also hardcoded and impossible to do.

If they're the random "bandit spawn", then yes, we can't do anything about them. If, on the other hand they're coming from the Revolts script, then I can change where they are spawning.

What do the stacks look like? Are they 5 or 8 units, or some other size?

[Pooploop]

Played 2.4, custom battles - so this may not reflect how the ai actually plays in real-time-battles during grand campaign. I've always been a Macedonian phalanx fan, I can't deny it, but once a human player gets a hold of our pikey boys and turns off guard mode, they can kinda hold off anything as long as they form a relatively unbroken line. The ai however, is stupid, and has a tendency to zip their phalanx units ACROSS player's battle lines like they can't see the potential enemies in front of them. They also keep their guard mode ON. This makes a strange dynamic where Hellenistic human players are overpowered while the ai playing any Successor kingdom are downright laughable. I'd suggest reducing phalanx attacking power (did you give them ap? haven't checked the stat files) while increasing their defensive stats (or add hitpoints) while making sure everybody (human or ai) has guard mode off. The ai is too mentally challenged to know when or when not to use guard mode, and above all else, seems incapable of forming their phalanx units into an unbroken battle line properly facing the human player.

Another thing as well...I think I can somewhat guess and understand why bodyguard units were given defensive mode on default states...but I'd advise turning it off for cav bodyguards, while keeping it on for foot bodyguards. EB2 has excellent ai (across tw titles) in initially responding to flanking maneuvers, but has a tendency to sometimes let their flank "protecting" units get strung out trying to chase too deeply player units adjacent or behind their main battle line. Makes it easy to bait them away and get surrounded and destroyed.

P.S. Balkan retainers still don't have a description?

P.P.S. WOOHOO 2.4 is OUT!!

[ETXBlues]

If they're the random "bandit spawn", then yes, we can't do anything about them. If, on the other hand they're coming from the Revolts script, then I can change where they are spawning.

What do the stacks look like? Are they 5 or 8 units, or some other size?

I recently spotted a full stack of rebels on the Baleares island where the port is located- it was all or mostly all skirmisher units too. Very weird, but it was never dealt with by the Carthage AI and pretty well devestated the province year on year.

[Goffredo85]

Seems like the romans are the only one who cannot recruit adskoros (cisapline swordsmen) from an allied government built in konnion boion (felsina/bononia), they only get it from a civitas libera gov building. from allied gov you can get either arkoi or kondamantes, depending on which kind of allied gov you choose. seems like an overlook since adskoros are meant to represent the very ethnicities living in those areas, so why can we get other "generic" celtic heavy/medium infantries, but not them?

[QuintusSertorius]

Seems like the romans are the only one who cannot recruit adskoros (cisapline swordsmen) from an allied government built in konnion boion (felsina/bononia), they only get it from a civitas libera gov building. from allied gov you can get either arkoi or kondamantes, depending on which kind of allied gov you choose. seems like an overlook since adskoros are meant to represent the very ethnicities living in those areas, so why can we get other "generic" celtic heavy/medium infantries, but not them?

Professional Celtic swordsmen (which includes the Adskoros) are a deliberately restricted unit. No one can recruit them in an Allied Government, only in factional governments or the Foreign Colony.

[Maroslav]

Temples could really use a little rebalance. For example difference between temple of farming and temple of fertility is in most cases none, as most factions do not reach temple level 5