Fans suggestion thread for future releases

[Gurkhal]

Yeah, if I could mod I would totally try and make a sub-mod out of it. But alas here we are without such a sub-mod. Nice to hear that someone else than me thought of it as a cool idea, however.

[romulus_aeneas]

1. Remove Basilike Patris points for all relevant factions and restrict construction to three regions for each faction, with the option to have a fourth one built for free (like the Makedonian script for Babylon) if the faction achieves a historically inspired and plausible expansionary objective (again, like the Makedonian Kurios tes Asia script).

2. KH should be allowed to colonize once they reach their reforms and control Pella, Ambrakia, and Syrakousai. I know the Greek city-states were no longer the intrepid colonizers of the Classical Age in EB's timeframe, but I think it's plausible a federated Greek socio-political system would endorse colonization. I also think the concept of using colonization to relocate intransigent Hellenes away from Hellas could lead to some interesting gameplay. For example, building foreign colonies would produce unhappiness for the KH to simulate the deleterious effects on public order by relocating Makedonian firebrands (as an example), but it would provide KH with advanced recruitment in non-Hellenized eastern regions and allow for the Hellenization of the east, which, over time, would lead to the installment of the KH's incredible post-reform government. This suggestion may be too ahistorical for the team, but I think it fits with the KH's evolution in EBII.

[Aodh Mór Ó Néill]

2. KH should be allowed to colonize once they reach their reforms and control Pella, Ambrakia, and Syrakousai. I know the Greek city-states were no longer the intrepid colonizers of the Classical Age in EB's timeframe, but I think it's plausible a federated Greek socio-political system would endorse colonization. I also think the concept of using colonization to relocate intransigent Hellenes away from Hellas could lead to some interesting gameplay. For example, building foreign colonies would produce unhappiness for the KH to simulate the deleterious effects on public order by relocating Makedonian firebrands (as an example), but it would provide KH with advanced recruitment in non-Hellenized eastern regions and allow for the Hellenization of the east, which, over time, would lead to the installment of the KH's incredible post-reform government. This suggestion may be too ahistorical for the team, but I think it fits with the KH's evolution in EBII.

Honestly I do think there's good historical and game play reasons for not allowing KH to colonize. The type of colonization that a decentralized federation would enact would be different to the colonization of a centralized kingdom, and this is represented by the KH's government forms.

Game play wise, if KH can colonize then they just become another Hellenic faction, their lack of it gives them a different game play style.

[romulus_aeneas]

Honestly I do think there's good historical and game play reasons for not allowing KH to colonize. The type of colonization that a decentralized federation would enact would be different to the colonization of a centralized kingdom, and this is represented by the KH's government forms.

Game play wise, if KH can colonize then they just become another Hellenic faction, their lack of it gives them a different game play style.

This is a fair critique. I didn’t really think of this perspective.

[Roma_Victrix]

Honestly I do think there's good historical and game play reasons for not allowing KH to colonize. The type of colonization that a decentralized federation would enact would be different to the colonization of a centralized kingdom, and this is represented by the KH's government forms.

Game play wise, if KH can colonize then they just become another Hellenic faction, their lack of it gives them a different game play style.

Aside from being able to upgrade existing Hellenistic poleis buildings, Koinon Hellenon effectively does colonize other regions with Greek style troops through the Supervised Hellenic Administration. All you have to do is culturally convert a province to 50% Hellenistic polities, build the Supervised Hellenic Administration, and suddenly you have Greek troops available with some light/minor native skirmisher ones that were available in the previous Supervised Native Administration (requiring 25% Hellenistic polities) or the allied democracy/oligarchy. In other words you can recruit Greek troops in Iberia, Gaul, Italia, the Balkans, Libya, eastern Anatolia, etc. without the polis at all or the Hellenistic military colony of the successor states.

There are limitations, of course. You can't have the best Greek troops from that building generally speaking. For instance, you can only get Thorakitai from a metropolis. I've modded my own game so that you can have Thorakitai heavy infantry and heavy lonchophoroi and aspidiotai cavalry in all Allied Leagues, League Member City-States, Founding States, and Supervised Hellenic Administrations, though.

They don't offer rosters as good as the those in the Mediterranean, but you can literally build Supervised Hellenic Administrations as far north as the Rhineland in Germania. Again, it's better to have allied democracies/oligarchies that far north just for the troop selection and recruitment options, but I've built a supervised state even in Britannia before, so it's almost like KH colonizing Britain! It can be done!

However, unless you mod the game, you won't be able to recruit anything beyond Hoplitai Haploi, Sphendonitai, and Akontistai in lower England.

[Pooploop]

Isn't it better if you restrict it (Basilike Patris) to every 15 regions or so? How about for Hellenistic powers aiming to bring ALL under Heaven (a Macedonian one)? Yeah, points to the idea of making it so that a federated southern greek power should be able to send out colonists (as their government can - at that point - organize multiple such undertakings). I feel that EB2 is sometimes so rigid in allowing ONLY what happened (historically) to occur in-game rather than giving options based on what would most LIKELY happen based on new choices the player makes. So what happens if the Hellenistic world takes over the Western Mediterranean? Or if Carthage becomes the "Roman Empire"? No fantasy units of course, but allow a bit more flexibility in choice of governments and infrastructure (hint: maybe phalangitai recruitment, very limited though, in western Europe?).

I'm really just hoping for a court system for the Hellenistic powers. Something to allow the Kings to inspire loyalty in their vassals, punish their disloyal ones, and, most importantly, establish a "page/squire" school to train young nobles into becoming your generals or governors. Something like a lite mix of Athenian and Spartan educational systems (which is essentially what Phillip gave to Alexander's companions).

[romulus_aeneas]

Isn't it better if you restrict it (Basilike Patris) to every 15 regions or so? How about for Hellenistic powers aiming to bring ALL under Heaven (a Macedonian one)? Yeah, points to the idea of making it so that a federated southern greek power should be able to send out colonists (as their government can - at that point - organize multiple such undertakings). I feel that EB2 is sometimes so rigid in allowing ONLY what happened (historically) to occur in-game rather than giving options based on what would most LIKELY happen based on new choices the player makes. So what happens if the Hellenistic world takes over the Western Mediterranean? Or if Carthage becomes the "Roman Empire"? No fantasy units of course, but allow a bit more flexibility in choice of governments and infrastructure (hint: maybe phalangitai recruitment, very limited though, in western Europe?).

I'm really just hoping for a court system for the Hellenistic powers. Something to allow the Kings to inspire loyalty in their vassals, punish their disloyal ones, and, most importantly, establish a "page/squire" school to train young nobles into becoming your generals or governors. Something like a lite mix of Athenian and Spartan educational systems (which is essentially what Phillip gave to Alexander's companions).

In truth, I think the team does a great job balancing historicity and alternative history. I tend to agree with their approach that any alternative history needs to be rooted in something plausibly historical - whether something accomplished like a Makedonian empire or attempted and failed like the Koinon Hellenon.

[Gurkhal]

Here's another suggestion from me regarding the Koinon Hellenon. That is that in addition to the league one can already form, there could be an alternative to revive the old Peloponnesian or Delian Leagues which would boost Sparta or Athens respectivly in exchange for a system that's more dependent on those cities themselves.

My reason is to offer further alternative ways to play this faction as for example a Sparta-centric league would be more oligarchy-leaning and focused on land power and agriculture while one leaning towards Athens would be more of democracy, sea power and trade. But in also with less loyalty and a bit more unruly territory beyond Sparta and Athens respectivly.

Now this could be done with role-playing the same in the game, but I would feel that with some mechanics to support this the experience would be even better. As well as allow us to further immerse ourselves in the history of Hellenistic Greece.

[Shoebopp]

Here's another suggestion from me regarding the Koinon Hellenon. That is that in addition to the league one can already form, there could be an alternative to revive the old Peloponnesian or Delian Leagues which would boost Sparta or Athens respectivly in exchange for a system that's more dependent on those cities themselves.

My reason is to offer further alternative ways to play this faction as for example a Sparta-centric league would be more oligarchy-leaning and focused on land power and agriculture while one leaning towards Athens would be more of democracy, sea power and trade. But in also with less loyalty and a bit more unruly territory beyond Sparta and Athens respectivly.

Now this could be done with role-playing the same in the game, but I would feel that with some mechanics to support this the experience would be even better. As well as allow us to further immerse ourselves in the history of Hellenistic Greece.

An evil imperial version of the KH reforms... interesting! To support your idea, EBII does have a few game mechanics that callback to older history. For example, the Makedonian Imperial reforms require that you hold Antiochea (formerly Antigonea, a half-completed Hellenistic settlement founded by Antigonus One-Eyed that Seleukos later stole, renamed to Antiochea, and claimed all the credit for), and Ipsos (the historical site of Antigonus One-Eyed dying). It's like your Antigonid dynasty regaining international prestige by avenging your past. Anyways, your idea does fall within EBII's limitations, and more importantly teaches the player history.

The hard part is coding it though. You could take up learning how to mod M2TW. It's pretty fulfilling because it allows you to exercise your creativity to create interesting gameplay scenarios for you and the community to enjoy. And if you write good in-game descriptions backed up by historical sources for your Athenian/Spartan empire submod, it might even get integrated into the main mod! A similar thing happened with another player's (Lusitanio? Or Erken?) naval raiding submod

[Gurkhal]

An evil imperial version of the KH reforms... interesting! To support your idea, EBII does have a few game mechanics that callback to older history. For example, the Makedonian Imperial reforms require that you hold Antiochea (formerly Antigonea, a half-completed Hellenistic settlement founded by Antigonus One-Eyed that Seleukos later stole, renamed to Antiochea, and claimed all the credit for), and Ipsos (the historical site of Antigonus One-Eyed dying). It's like your Antigonid dynasty regaining international prestige by avenging your past. Anyways, your idea does fall within EBII's limitations, and more importantly teaches the player history.

The hard part is coding it though. You could take up learning how to mod M2TW. It's pretty fulfilling because it allows you to exercise your creativity to create interesting gameplay scenarios for you and the community to enjoy. And if you write good in-game descriptions backed up by historical sources for your Athenian/Spartan empire submod, it might even get integrated into the main mod! A similar thing happened with another player's (Lusitanio? Or Erken?) naval raiding submod

Making a sub-mod would have been cool but I'm afraid that I have the modding skills and technical inclination of a mashed tomato. Maybe some day but I'm afraid little to nothing will come from any attempt by me to mod a game. :/

[romulus_aeneas]

Scripts I've either written or plan to write to serve as a pseudo "Guaranteed Major Factions" submod for EBII. Of course, given I'm posting it in this thread, they are also suggestions for the team to consider so certain factions (like Rome and the Pahlava) have a higher chance to become major powers:

1. Auto-expansion for AI Rome to conquer Tarentum and Rhegion on turn 1. This ensures immediate control of the Italian peninsula, avoiding the sometimes embarrassing situation where Rome fails to conquer Rhegion by turn 100.
2. Auto-expansion for AI Rome to invade Messana when conquered by Carthage, imitating the Mamertines' plea for Roman aid. Most of the time Carthage retakes the city relatively quickly. Other times, however, Rome is able to secure the city and even take over Sicily.
3. Auto-expansion for AI Rome to conquer Cisalpine Gaul - Bononia, Patavium, and Mediolanium - after 225 BCE (turn 188) if any of those territories have not been conquered yet. This helps deal with the "super soldiers" who develop in Cisalpine Gaul from incessant warfare with Rome.
4. Auto-expansion for AI Carthage to conquer Qart Hadasht in 228 if not conquered by the.
5. Auto-rebellions in Asaak and Zadrakarta around 250 - I know this isn't the exact date Androgoras rebelled, but secondary sources are inconsistent on when Androgoras revolted and when Arasces then took the satrapy for himself - if still controlled by the Arche Seleukia to simulate Androgoras's attempt to form his own kingdom, which was then swiftly conquered by the Pahlava. The rebellions give the Pahlava a safe avenue to expand south into lucrative territories. These rebellions would occur regardless of the player's faction, meaning an AS player would need to repulse the invading rebels to maintain control of these provinces. In addition, this script encourages roleplay by Pahlavan players to wait until Androgoras's rebellion and then take Asaak and Zadrakarta.
6. Auto-expansion script for AI Pahlava to conquer Hekatompylos in 245 if still controlled by the AS. This script, in addition to the one above, would give the Pahlava control of the Parthian and Hyracanian satrapy, which AI Pahlava almost never rules in my experience.

There are more scripts in mind, but this seems like a good enough list to suggest how the submod would work. A caveat, however, is that this is catered towards 2.35's CAI. I have played 2.4's CAI for a good bit and feel these scripts would not be necessary if 2.4's CAI was unchanged for release.

[DaGrenadier]

The hellenic thureophoroi roster could use a visual upgrade as well as the peltastai makedones, hetairoi and somatophylakes strategoi

[Gurkhal]

I'm back with a suggestion for a system, or sub-system or whatever, to the game regarding the characters. That is a protege-system. I know nothing about modding so the details are not very interesting to me but the greater point of the idea is something which I would like to see implemented.

Proteges

The main reason for this suggestion is that I noticed that in armies with several characters present only the general gains traits and gets command scores, same with cities and governors, and I think that this is unlikely to actually be the case. Its my understanding that characters represent the absolute social, political and economic top of a faction's society and thus if they are in an army or city, they're going to help out from high posts in the management of that army or city rather than just shoot the breeze and do nothing special with their time. I can understand that characters going through some form of education, like the Spartan agoge would not be up for this, but there can be many characters hanging out in an army or city and not seemingly doing much with their time.

Thus I would suggest that there would be a chance for a younger character, say between 16-24 years, to can gain a "protege" trait if he fullfills certain conditions, like charisma, intelligence, etc. from being in an army or settlement. If a character becomes a protege he must stay with that army or city to gain benefits, and if he leaves he also losses the protege trait and its effects, but thus can get traits from essentially being nurtured into command by a more experienced teacher/patron.

I'll try to illustrate my point below with an example.

Say we have Korinthos, the city, and we have a 46 year old governor with a "Influence" level at 6. Now we move a 19 year old character into that city there will be a chance that the younger character gain a protege trait and can get, just like if he was a governor, traits and increased "Influence" to be a governor just like if he was a governor in his own city, even if the chance might be somewhat lower as a protege.

So...

I think this would help with an additional RP aspect, hopefully deepen character management and also add an aspect of history into the mod which I haven't seen much of right now. I don't think that for example Alexander the Great would have been able to conduct the storm of activity right from ascension if he didn't already had learned a thing or two about command while serving under his father or that the many generals fighting it out after Alexander's death clearly learn a thing or two about fighting and commanding even while Alexander was always the top general of the army.

[Roma_Victrix]

I know it probably seems like a minor issue to some of you here, but it would be more immersive and make more sense historically if the colonial settlement of Emporion (Empuries, Spain) had a pre-existing Hellenistic minor polis at the start of the campaign. If Massalia - the chief colonial Greek settlement in Gaul - starts out with a Hellenistic polis, then it stands to reason Emporion should have one as well, it being the most significant colonial Greek settlement in Iberia. Is this simply something that was overlooked? Or is there some reasoning behind why Massalia should have one but Emporion cannot? You can build a polis there as most Hellenistic factions, but not as Koinon Hellenon (which is incapable of doing so, and can only build Supervised Hellenic Administrations after 50% cultural conversion).

[QuintusSertorius]

I know it probably seems like a minor issue to some of you here, but it would be more immersive and make more sense historically if the colonial settlement of Emporion (Empuries, Spain) had a pre-existing Hellenistic minor polis at the start of the campaign. If Massalia - the chief colonial Greek settlement in Gaul - starts out with a Hellenistic polis, then it stands to reason Emporion should have one as well, it being the most significant colonial Greek settlement in Iberia. Is this simply something that was overlooked? Or is there some reasoning behind why Massalia should have one but Emporion cannot? You can build a polis there as most Hellenistic factions, but not as Koinon Hellenon (which is incapable of doing so, and can only build Supervised Hellenic Administrations after 50% cultural conversion).

It wasn't overlooked, the level of Hellenisation there was much smaller than in Massalia. It was a trading post with little evidence of permeation of Hellenic culture into the hinterland. That's why the recruitment pool of the region was adjusted to remove the Greek units from the Allied Government and native pools. There simply weren't enough Greeks to merit that.