Thread: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

  1. #2321
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Goa - India
    Posts
    53,095
    Blog Entries
    35

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Retrain: I do not think that the AI moves armies into settlements with the purpose of retraining. It can however be assumed that once an army is in a settlement that units will get replenished. There simply is no way to have intact AI units with elevated chevrons otherwise, other then merging that is.










  2. #2322
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The AI definitely merges, I always assumed they didn't retrain but it's difficult to observe what they're up to when units are in garrisons.
    We didn't script anything there, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    In my opinion, since the feature has been in since RTW it works in basically every mod unless they were doing everything possible to prevent the AI from retraining units successfully. A more accurate statement is probably that "the ai doesn't retrain units as often as a player".
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Retrain: I do not think that the AI moves armies into settlements with the purpose of retraining. It can however be assumed that once an army is in a settlement that units will get replenished. There simply is no way to have intact AI units with elevated chevrons otherwise, other then merging that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    How did modders know AI never retrains units? I'm suggesting they didn't know, they only believed that was the case based on anecdotal evidence. And that AI does retrain, based on direct evidence, so knowing it doesn't retrain is impossible (because it does).
    Thanks, @Gigantus, @Quintus, @z3n, @Dooz.
    I confirms my observations from the past (@Dooz: this is my source): having seen depleted AI armies roaming for long time on the map. I haven't paid attention if there'd more units of the same type in an army, so I take it from you that the AI does merge units.
    From the discussion I take away that:
    - there's no way to make the AI merging depleted units but if there're units of the same type in an army, the AI may merge them);
    - we don't know if the AI retrains units but the conventional wisdom for 15 years of modding the Med2 engine is that it does not, while some observations say it does. Anyway, no scripting solution either.

    A few questions concerning coding, if you'd bother to drop a short info:
    - is there a way to make the AI keeping garrisons in the settlements (I assume: no, and this is the reason to have automatic garrisons spawned on the occassion of a siege)?
    - is there a way to force the AI to keep larger armies in the field (not many 3-4-unit, but a few 10-15-unit)?
    - is there a way to force the AI to have a general in the armies (other than artificially spawning generals by script and keeping fingers crossed the AI will attach them to the armies, not having one army with a couple of generals)?
    cheers
    JoC

  3. #2323
    Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    AEnima City, USA
    Posts
    1,646

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    If you still insist we don't know that the AI retrains units, I suggest you run a hotseat campaign for yourself. I know contravening 15 years of conventional wisdom can be difficult, but seeing is believing.

    If you want to do that, here's how. Start a hotseat campaign as Rome, the default selected faction just for simplicity's sake. Once the campaign starts, set your faction to AI control by bringing up the console command line with ~, then without including the quotes type "control f_rome". Let it run automatically for a hundred turns or so then take over some other factions to check their recruitment report scrolls.

    You can see the faction names you can use for the console command in the descr_sm_factions.txt file in the mod's data folder. They are listed as f_"faction name", where "faction name" is pergamon or boii or whatever. So while the AI turns are progressing and the faction icons are going by, choose whichever one you like at any point and in the console type control f_"faction name". When that faction's turn comes up, you will be presented with all the same start-of-turn scrolls and information as the usual ones in a regular campaign. Check the recruitment reports. If you don't see any (retrained) units on your first look, type in console control f_faction again to switch back to AI control. Then pick another faction to take over the same way. It shouldn't take long to find a faction with retrained units reported in their scroll, it was not an uncommon occurrence during my observations.

    Turns will go by faster if you select the option to not follow campaign AI movements, and leave the fog of war on as it is by default while the turns are passing. You might also want to click spacebar once right at the beginning so your faction's movements will be sped up and go by faster when it's their turn.

    Btw regarding your questions at the bottom, after watching hundreds of turns of AI simulated campaigns as explained above, I can confirm that at least points 1 and 2 are rather consistently present in the current CAI, and 3 is not bad either. I don't know if you've played R3.5 yet, but you may well be pleasantly surprised to have your hopes already realized.

  4. #2324
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,640

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    This discussion has given me a burning desire to start a hotseat campaign tomorrow and verify with screenshots whether the AI retains units or not.

    Edit: its past my bedtime or I would respond more in depth to your posts
    Last edited by z3n; June 30, 2021 at 01:37 AM.
    The AI Workshop Creator
    Europa Barbaroum II AI/Game Mechanics Developer
    The Northern Crusades Lead Developer
    Classical Age Total War Retired Lead Developer
    Rome: Total Realism Animation Developer
    RTW Workshop Assistance MTW2 AI Tutorial & Assistance
    Broken Crescent Submod (M2TW)/IB VGR Submod (BI)/Animation (RTW/BI/ALX)/TATW PCP Submod (M2TW)/TATW DaC Submod (M2TW)/DeI Submod (TWR2)/SS6.4 Northern European UI Mod (M2TW)

  5. #2325
    Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    AEnima City, USA
    Posts
    1,646

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Get some rest, z3n. I have screenshots. Here are three factions from the same turn.

    Spoiler for AI retraining units



    But I might be a lying sociopath doctoring images or manipulating events to create the appearance of AI retraining. Best to see for one's self.

  6. #2326

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    is there a way to force the AI to have a general in the armies (other than artificially spawning generals by script and keeping fingers crossed the AI will attach them to the armies, not having one army with a couple of generals)?
    cheers
    JoC
    The answer to this one is categorically no. Not even CA can do that, which is why they gave up and in later games simply hardcoded a general with every AI army.

  7. #2327

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    But I might be a lying sociopath doctoring images or manipulating events to create the appearance of AI retraining. Best to see for one's self.
    No one's suggesting that extreme mate, just that as @Jurand says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    ...we don't know if the AI retrains units but the conventional wisdom for 15 years of modding the Med2 engine is that it does not, while some observations say it does..
    My guess is that the increased movement in R3.5 had this unexpected, and welcomed effect. Either way, it's an awesome breakthrough.

  8. #2328
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,640

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Honestly makute the only interaction movement has with retraining is the ability to reach a destination faster.
    The AI has always been able to retrain. Maybe said modders did not have their AIs, unit costs, priorities, and many other variables setup properly. It could be to do with the rewrite of the AI db I made, it was total. But I also doubt this, since I consider retraining to be a basic behavior included in all decisions.


    I suspect it's simply a case of said modders not exploring the capabilities of the engine thoroughly enough, obviously the devs would not have magically overlooked the fact the retraining feature exists. It's been there since RTW and every other interaction I can think of is programmed in. The most glaring flaws of the AI rather exist within the battle AI but that might be because people want an AI that's easy or fun to beat in real time settings.
    The AI Workshop Creator
    Europa Barbaroum II AI/Game Mechanics Developer
    The Northern Crusades Lead Developer
    Classical Age Total War Retired Lead Developer
    Rome: Total Realism Animation Developer
    RTW Workshop Assistance MTW2 AI Tutorial & Assistance
    Broken Crescent Submod (M2TW)/IB VGR Submod (BI)/Animation (RTW/BI/ALX)/TATW PCP Submod (M2TW)/TATW DaC Submod (M2TW)/DeI Submod (TWR2)/SS6.4 Northern European UI Mod (M2TW)

  9. #2329
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,640

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Thanks, @Gigantus, @Quintus, @z3n, @Dooz.
    I confirms my observations from the past (@Dooz: this is my source): having seen depleted AI armies roaming for long time on the map. I haven't paid attention if there'd more units of the same type in an army, so I take it from you that the AI does merge units.
    From the discussion I take away that:
    - there's no way to make the AI merging depleted units but if there're units of the same type in an army, the AI may merge them);
    - we don't know if the AI retrains units but the conventional wisdom for 15 years of modding the Med2 engine is that it does not, while some observations say it does. Anyway, no scripting solution either.

    A few questions concerning coding, if you'd bother to drop a short info:
    - is there a way to make the AI keeping garrisons in the settlements (I assume: no, and this is the reason to have automatic garrisons spawned on the occassion of a siege)?
    - is there a way to force the AI to keep larger armies in the field (not many 3-4-unit, but a few 10-15-unit)?
    - is there a way to force the AI to have a general in the armies (other than artificially spawning generals by script and keeping fingers crossed the AI will attach them to the armies, not having one army with a couple of generals)?
    cheers
    JoC
    With respect to rebel garrisons you have to use the rebel min turn garrison setting, set it to 0 if you want them to move out or 999 if you dont. However past turn 999 in the unlikely scenario a rebel holdout exists, they might move out. If you really want units in a settlement, defend_deep, defend_fortified, and maybe defend_normal result in this behavior. The only problem is that apparently settlement siege relief is much rarer and interceptions of armies as well. The AI plays more passive regarding territorial incursions and focuses more on stacking units into settlements.

    As for the other two, the invasion strategies can play some part in the AIs choices, invade_buildup since CavalryCmdr's original investigations into the CAI has been considered most effective at building larger armies, other decisions result in aggressive or opportunistic behavior. Maybe if the AI considers its generals to be horrible govenors it would use them solely in the field. It may be as simple as convincing it there is no point to governing the city. Aside from that potential idea (I never tested and it's a long shot) I have no known way to force those things, a few years ago I tried to incentivize it via captain wages and movement points but I dont think that is weighted much, if at all. CA gave up on captains and made armies led by FMs only eventually.
    Last edited by z3n; June 30, 2021 at 08:10 AM. Reason: rebel the revel
    The AI Workshop Creator
    Europa Barbaroum II AI/Game Mechanics Developer
    The Northern Crusades Lead Developer
    Classical Age Total War Retired Lead Developer
    Rome: Total Realism Animation Developer
    RTW Workshop Assistance MTW2 AI Tutorial & Assistance
    Broken Crescent Submod (M2TW)/IB VGR Submod (BI)/Animation (RTW/BI/ALX)/TATW PCP Submod (M2TW)/TATW DaC Submod (M2TW)/DeI Submod (TWR2)/SS6.4 Northern European UI Mod (M2TW)

  10. #2330

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    I'd prefer no one be able to "retrain" units but here we are.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  11. #2331

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    I'd prefer no one be able to "retrain" units but here we are.
    That's hardcoded. If you can recruit, you can retrain.

  12. #2332

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Both the Sakans and Parthians have pretty terrible access to the Foreign Military Colony. Parthia can only build beyond level 1 in historical satrapal or hellenized provinces, both of which are rare across the Achaemenid Empire. Meanwhile the Sakans have to raise their culture up to 30%, then build the Autonomous Satrapy, THEN be only able to build level 1. Level 2 is restricted to satrapal districts which also require 40% EI.

    Now it could be argued that these two factions, being nomadic at some point, don't have much historical basis to continue Achaemenid military settler traditions... except the once-nomadic Nabataeans can build up to level 3 FMC in their ubiquitous Satrapy building nearly everywhere. Also the Parthians fancied themselves the successors of the Achaemenids. Perhaps we can bump up the levels of FMC available to the Parthians and Sakans for each building. Here are the proposed levels of FMC and their governments required to unlock them:

    Parthia
    Subject Nomad Territory -> level 1
    Parthian Border March -> level 2
    Satrapy -> level 3
    Royal Satrapy -> level 3
    Indo-Parthian Satrapy -> level 3

    Saka
    Sakan Administration -> level 1
    Autonomous Satrapal District -> level 2
    Satrapy -> level 3
    Royal Satrapy -> level 3

    Again I have little deep knowledge of Parthian and Sakan settler policies - these suggestions are purely for gameplay enjoyment.

  13. #2333

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Some nomadic factions need a leader who has the Settled Trait before they get the settled reform. I would be in favour of scrapping this. It's annoying when you have all the vour requirements but have to wait forever for the right trait. Or that there are safe ways to get said traits.

  14. #2334

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Aneuth View Post
    Some nomadic factions need a leader who has the Settled Trait before they get the settled reform. I would be in favour of scrapping this. It's annoying when you have all the vour requirements but have to wait forever for the right trait. Or that there are safe ways to get said traits.
    There is a way to influence but not guarantee the acquisition of Settled Nature. All Nomadic factions can conquer regions whose settlements start out as a camp. Take your Faction Heir and place them in each camp that is about to finish construction of the nomadic equivalent of farms. Each completion has a 50% chance to boost Settled by one level. You can also simply just leave your Faction Heir in any settlement to slowly accumulate Settled points. Do NOT keep him there if the settlement is about to complete a Herds building, though! Even worse is having him constantly outside a settlement, moving around. That will bump him towards Nomadic. Once he hits Nomadic Nature he cannot go back to Settled... in that case imprison him in a cell without video surveillance and let your guards take care of him. The public will forever remember the former Faction Heir as a dumbass who thinks that wheat grows from cattle.

  15. #2335

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Thank you. I didn't know. And I wonder why my chief suddenly becomes a Horde Lord even though he's in a city.

    Then ignore my suggestion.

  16. #2336
    Senator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Germany ,NRW
    Posts
    1,258

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Phalangitai still feel underwhelming.When out in guard mode they kill barely anything that has any armor or shields.A unit of roman legionaries can outlast them in a frontal attack since the phalanx can't kill anything,the fight takes a long time but after 5 minutes the Phalangitai may have lost 40 men and the legionaries 5 and that's in a controlled test battle without flanking.I get that their attack has to be nerfed since they can't have secondary weapons but right now the only use they have is pinning other units in place.They should be able to actually kill something.

    Plutarch, The Parallel Lives:

    For the Romans tried to thrust aside the long spears of their enemies with their swords, or to crowd them back with their shields, or to seize and put them by with their very hands;while the Macedonians, holding them firmly advanced with both hands, and piercing those who fell upon them, armour and all, since neither shield nor breastplate could resist the force of the Macedonian long spear, hurled headlong back the Pelignians and Marrucinians, who, with no consideration but with animal fury rushed upon the strokes that met them, and a certain death.When the first line had thus been cut to pieces, those arrayed behind them were beaten back; and though there was no flight, still they retired towards the mountain called Olocrus,so that even Aemilius, as Poseidonius tells us, when he saw it, rent his garments. For this part of his army was retreating, and the rest of the Romans were turning aside from the phalanx, which gave them no access to it, but confronted them as it were with a dense barricade of long spears, and was everywhere unassailable.
    Elder Scrolls Online :Messing up the Lore since 2007...

    Well overhand or underhand: 3:50 Onwards...

  17. #2337

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Brother Sint, might I suggest for you to check out this thread: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...AI)&highlight=? Please focus on page 2. As the tests I did show, the way the phalanxes are NOW with guard mode OFF make them completely different beasts. They kind of become the number one frontal combat infantry in the entire game, bar none. As long as the enemy is coming from the front and are not phalangites as well, they will dominate everything - be it elephants, cataphracts, or pansy Romans.

  18. #2338

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    The only thing that phalangitai lack is killing power when charged from the front, because that should be mass making of Bob's Iguana Bits. As it stands now, charging troops mostly survive and are pinned down.

    Other than that, they're just fine. And since there's nothing in M2TW engine that would boost kill rates specifically for defense against charge, it'll most likely stay that way.

  19. #2339

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Sar1n, but they DO have killing power. Just turn off their guard mode.

  20. #2340

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Sar1n, but they DO have killing power. Just turn off their guard mode.
    Let's say we have phalangitai and ageman phalangitai against Marian Legionaries. If their guard mode is on, they will take some casualties from the pilla and then pin the Romans down, neither side inflicting many casualties. Now if you turn the guard mode off... The formation will kinda be ruined. Every phalangitai will rush in for the kill and you'll see the Legionaries make mince meat out of your units. At least that's what happened when I tested it in custom battle. The only way I was able to salvage the situation was literally ramming all my cavalry into the back of the Romans. I guess you could say that is somewhat historical... but the phalangitai die just a little too fast for it to make sense.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •