Fans suggestion thread for future releases

[Pooploop]

The faction who really needs some sort of buff would be the sweboz..like even one armor upgrade for a select group of units. I get that's how they're supposed to look at game start, but by late game close to C.E? Do they really have the largest roster of infantry pretending to be "heavy" yet at most wearing really comfy tunics and shirts? The best helmets available are super outdated round bronze bowls? Man, the Germans back then were really, really brave (and insane). The Celts have those naked dudes, but the rest of their elite roster are all heavily armed and armored in the latest mail...

[Sint]

As far as I'm aware the germanic tribes only started to field real heavy infantry and cavalry after the end of EB2s timeframe.

[QuintusSertorius]

The faction who really needs some sort of buff would be the sweboz..like even one armor upgrade for a select group of units. I get that's how they're supposed to look at game start, but by late game close to C.E? Do they really have the largest roster of infantry pretending to be "heavy" yet at most wearing really comfy tunics and shirts? The best helmets available are super outdated round bronze bowls? Man, the Germans back then were really, really brave (and insane). The Celts have those naked dudes, but the rest of their elite roster are all heavily armed and armored in the latest mail...

As below:

As far as I'm aware the germanic tribes only started to field real heavy infantry and cavalry after the end of EB2s timeframe.

There's no historical basis for heavily-armoured Germans in this period. Gameplay isn't a consideration when building the rosters, historicity is.

[Pooploop]

I'm actually questioning to know about the history. Is it truly historically implausible that in the time period of EB2's Late Game that there were Germanic warbands that actually had the sense to loot good helmets rather than those bronze bowls? The Druhtiz and the Lombard warbands, is it really impossible that they try to equip themselves with at least some sort of leather or padding rather than just wear shirts? Was the state of personal armor THAT bad among the German tribes? Like I can get the widespread lack of metal armor...but no helmets or even some basic hardened leather?!!

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm actually questioning to know about the history. Is it truly historically implausible that in the time period of EB2's Late Game that there were Germanic warbands that actually had the sense to loot good helmets rather than those bronze bowls? The Druhtiz and the Lombard warbands, is it really impossible that they try to equip themselves with at least some sort of leather or padding rather than just wear shirts? Was the state of personal armor THAT bad among the German tribes? Like I can get the widespread lack of metal armor...but no helmets or even some basic hardened leather?!!

There isn't actually good evidence for universal use of helmets in a Celtic context, never mind Germanic (which has a much poorer material culture). Most of the finds of mail come from the eastern/Balkan Celtic regions, rather than Gaul.

[randy_cat]

Barbarian factions in general don't have really much armour, i think they probably had access to Chain mail or at least leather protection. It:s ok if you Say that the findings don't suggest they wore metal armor, but if you think about it, the wealthy barbarians most likely could buy armor from other civilisations if they didn't have local metal working. EB1 surely had more cool looking barbarians with either chain mail, breastplates, or scale armour. Some units like those extra armoured infantry basilikon agema thorakitai tho are probably unlikely but not even impossible. Surely a bronze muscle cuirass worn over linen looks cooler than raw layers of crude metal mail.

[Gurkhal]

I don't think that this suggestion is possible but I'd like to put it out there anyway.

My suggestion is for a sub-mod or alternative "game rule" that instead of building individual units of your own choice you raise an army from a settlement and dependig on the buildings, size, faction etc. of that settlement and province you get a pre-made composition of units in that army along with a commander along the same lines. Thus both player and AI won't be able to build doom stacks of elite units but gets a historically, as close as possible, accurate hand and then gets to play that hand as well as they can.

I understand that this wouldn't be to everyone tastes but personally I'd enjoy it.

[Shoebopp]

I don't think that this suggestion is possible but I'd like to put it out there anyway.

My suggestion is for a sub-mod or alternative "game rule" that instead of building individual units of your own choice you raise an army from a settlement and dependig on the buildings, size, faction etc. of that settlement and province you get a pre-made composition of units in that army along with a commander along the same lines. Thus both player and AI won't be able to build doom stacks of elite units but gets a historically, as close as possible, accurate hand and then gets to play that hand as well as they can.

I understand that this wouldn't be to everyone tastes but personally I'd enjoy it.

It's entirely possible to do this for the AI. There's already an event_counter called "<faction name>IsAI" and we can modify vanilla-style recruitment to only allow it if the faction in quesiton is controlled by the player. There's also a "<faction name>UnitLimit" counter which can be used to restrict the number of units a faction can own. That counter can be checked before spawning a realistic army of X units for a faction.

[Shoebopp]

Hmmm, to do this for the player, we'd have to disable recruitment entirely, but how about we have a building called "Build army" that can only be built once per turn, and takes 1 turn to complete. It's also only available if the number of units owned by the player is less than a certain amount. Then, at the end of each turn, the script checks if that building exists. If it does, it spawns an army next to your starting capital, and then demolishes that building. Not sure what happens if you don't own your starting capital though...

Honestly, Gurkhal, this is a great idea for a submod instead of the vanilla mod. It's pretty drastic of a change and difficult to code for all 30-ish factions, but can be a fun way to play the game differently

[Gurkhal]

Yeah, if I could mod I would totally try and make a sub-mod out of it. But alas here we are without such a sub-mod. Nice to hear that someone else than me thought of it as a cool idea, however.

[romulus_aeneas]

1. Remove Basilike Patris points for all relevant factions and restrict construction to three regions for each faction, with the option to have a fourth one built for free (like the Makedonian script for Babylon) if the faction achieves a historically inspired and plausible expansionary objective (again, like the Makedonian Kurios tes Asia script).

2. KH should be allowed to colonize once they reach their reforms and control Pella, Ambrakia, and Syrakousai. I know the Greek city-states were no longer the intrepid colonizers of the Classical Age in EB's timeframe, but I think it's plausible a federated Greek socio-political system would endorse colonization. I also think the concept of using colonization to relocate intransigent Hellenes away from Hellas could lead to some interesting gameplay. For example, building foreign colonies would produce unhappiness for the KH to simulate the deleterious effects on public order by relocating Makedonian firebrands (as an example), but it would provide KH with advanced recruitment in non-Hellenized eastern regions and allow for the Hellenization of the east, which, over time, would lead to the installment of the KH's incredible post-reform government. This suggestion may be too ahistorical for the team, but I think it fits with the KH's evolution in EBII.

[Pooploop]

Isn't it better if you restrict it (Basilike Patris) to every 15 regions or so? How about for Hellenistic powers aiming to bring ALL under Heaven (a Macedonian one)? Yeah, points to the idea of making it so that a federated southern greek power should be able to send out colonists (as their government can - at that point - organize multiple such undertakings). I feel that EB2 is sometimes so rigid in allowing ONLY what happened (historically) to occur in-game rather than giving options based on what would most LIKELY happen based on new choices the player makes. So what happens if the Hellenistic world takes over the Western Mediterranean? Or if Carthage becomes the "Roman Empire"? No fantasy units of course, but allow a bit more flexibility in choice of governments and infrastructure (hint: maybe phalangitai recruitment, very limited though, in western Europe?).

I'm really just hoping for a court system for the Hellenistic powers. Something to allow the Kings to inspire loyalty in their vassals, punish their disloyal ones, and, most importantly, establish a "page/squire" school to train young nobles into becoming your generals or governors. Something like a lite mix of Athenian and Spartan educational systems (which is essentially what Phillip gave to Alexander's companions).

[Aodh Mór Ó Néill]

2. KH should be allowed to colonize once they reach their reforms and control Pella, Ambrakia, and Syrakousai. I know the Greek city-states were no longer the intrepid colonizers of the Classical Age in EB's timeframe, but I think it's plausible a federated Greek socio-political system would endorse colonization. I also think the concept of using colonization to relocate intransigent Hellenes away from Hellas could lead to some interesting gameplay. For example, building foreign colonies would produce unhappiness for the KH to simulate the deleterious effects on public order by relocating Makedonian firebrands (as an example), but it would provide KH with advanced recruitment in non-Hellenized eastern regions and allow for the Hellenization of the east, which, over time, would lead to the installment of the KH's incredible post-reform government. This suggestion may be too ahistorical for the team, but I think it fits with the KH's evolution in EBII.

Honestly I do think there's good historical and game play reasons for not allowing KH to colonize. The type of colonization that a decentralized federation would enact would be different to the colonization of a centralized kingdom, and this is represented by the KH's government forms.

Game play wise, if KH can colonize then they just become another Hellenic faction, their lack of it gives them a different game play style.

[romulus_aeneas]

Isn't it better if you restrict it (Basilike Patris) to every 15 regions or so? How about for Hellenistic powers aiming to bring ALL under Heaven (a Macedonian one)? Yeah, points to the idea of making it so that a federated southern greek power should be able to send out colonists (as their government can - at that point - organize multiple such undertakings). I feel that EB2 is sometimes so rigid in allowing ONLY what happened (historically) to occur in-game rather than giving options based on what would most LIKELY happen based on new choices the player makes. So what happens if the Hellenistic world takes over the Western Mediterranean? Or if Carthage becomes the "Roman Empire"? No fantasy units of course, but allow a bit more flexibility in choice of governments and infrastructure (hint: maybe phalangitai recruitment, very limited though, in western Europe?).

I'm really just hoping for a court system for the Hellenistic powers. Something to allow the Kings to inspire loyalty in their vassals, punish their disloyal ones, and, most importantly, establish a "page/squire" school to train young nobles into becoming your generals or governors. Something like a lite mix of Athenian and Spartan educational systems (which is essentially what Phillip gave to Alexander's companions).

In truth, I think the team does a great job balancing historicity and alternative history. I tend to agree with their approach that any alternative history needs to be rooted in something plausibly historical - whether something accomplished like a Makedonian empire or attempted and failed like the Koinon Hellenon.

[romulus_aeneas]

Honestly I do think there's good historical and game play reasons for not allowing KH to colonize. The type of colonization that a decentralized federation would enact would be different to the colonization of a centralized kingdom, and this is represented by the KH's government forms.

Game play wise, if KH can colonize then they just become another Hellenic faction, their lack of it gives them a different game play style.

This is a fair critique. I didn’t really think of this perspective.

[Roma_Victrix]

Honestly I do think there's good historical and game play reasons for not allowing KH to colonize. The type of colonization that a decentralized federation would enact would be different to the colonization of a centralized kingdom, and this is represented by the KH's government forms.

Game play wise, if KH can colonize then they just become another Hellenic faction, their lack of it gives them a different game play style.

Aside from being able to upgrade existing Hellenistic poleis buildings, Koinon Hellenon effectively does colonize other regions with Greek style troops through the Supervised Hellenic Administration. All you have to do is culturally convert a province to 50% Hellenistic polities, build the Supervised Hellenic Administration, and suddenly you have Greek troops available with some light/minor native skirmisher ones that were available in the previous Supervised Native Administration (requiring 25% Hellenistic polities) or the allied democracy/oligarchy. In other words you can recruit Greek troops in Iberia, Gaul, Italia, the Balkans, Libya, eastern Anatolia, etc. without the polis at all or the Hellenistic military colony of the successor states.

There are limitations, of course. You can't have the best Greek troops from that building generally speaking. For instance, you can only get Thorakitai from a metropolis. I've modded my own game so that you can have Thorakitai heavy infantry and heavy lonchophoroi and aspidiotai cavalry in all Allied Leagues, League Member City-States, Founding States, and Supervised Hellenic Administrations, though.

They don't offer rosters as good as the those in the Mediterranean, but you can literally build Supervised Hellenic Administrations as far north as the Rhineland in Germania. Again, it's better to have allied democracies/oligarchies that far north just for the troop selection and recruitment options, but I've built a supervised state even in Britannia before, so it's almost like KH colonizing Britain! It can be done!

However, unless you mod the game, you won't be able to recruit anything beyond Hoplitai Haploi, Sphendonitai, and Akontistai in lower England.

[Gurkhal]

Here's another suggestion from me regarding the Koinon Hellenon. That is that in addition to the league one can already form, there could be an alternative to revive the old Peloponnesian or Delian Leagues which would boost Sparta or Athens respectivly in exchange for a system that's more dependent on those cities themselves.

My reason is to offer further alternative ways to play this faction as for example a Sparta-centric league would be more oligarchy-leaning and focused on land power and agriculture while one leaning towards Athens would be more of democracy, sea power and trade. But in also with less loyalty and a bit more unruly territory beyond Sparta and Athens respectivly.

Now this could be done with role-playing the same in the game, but I would feel that with some mechanics to support this the experience would be even better. As well as allow us to further immerse ourselves in the history of Hellenistic Greece.

[Shoebopp]

Here's another suggestion from me regarding the Koinon Hellenon. That is that in addition to the league one can already form, there could be an alternative to revive the old Peloponnesian or Delian Leagues which would boost Sparta or Athens respectivly in exchange for a system that's more dependent on those cities themselves.

My reason is to offer further alternative ways to play this faction as for example a Sparta-centric league would be more oligarchy-leaning and focused on land power and agriculture while one leaning towards Athens would be more of democracy, sea power and trade. But in also with less loyalty and a bit more unruly territory beyond Sparta and Athens respectivly.

Now this could be done with role-playing the same in the game, but I would feel that with some mechanics to support this the experience would be even better. As well as allow us to further immerse ourselves in the history of Hellenistic Greece.

An evil imperial version of the KH reforms... interesting! To support your idea, EBII does have a few game mechanics that callback to older history. For example, the Makedonian Imperial reforms require that you hold Antiochea (formerly Antigonea, a half-completed Hellenistic settlement founded by Antigonus One-Eyed that Seleukos later stole, renamed to Antiochea, and claimed all the credit for), and Ipsos (the historical site of Antigonus One-Eyed dying). It's like your Antigonid dynasty regaining international prestige by avenging your past. Anyways, your idea does fall within EBII's limitations, and more importantly teaches the player history.

The hard part is coding it though. You could take up learning how to mod M2TW. It's pretty fulfilling because it allows you to exercise your creativity to create interesting gameplay scenarios for you and the community to enjoy. And if you write good in-game descriptions backed up by historical sources for your Athenian/Spartan empire submod, it might even get integrated into the main mod! A similar thing happened with another player's (Lusitanio? Or Erken?) naval raiding submod

[Gurkhal]

An evil imperial version of the KH reforms... interesting! To support your idea, EBII does have a few game mechanics that callback to older history. For example, the Makedonian Imperial reforms require that you hold Antiochea (formerly Antigonea, a half-completed Hellenistic settlement founded by Antigonus One-Eyed that Seleukos later stole, renamed to Antiochea, and claimed all the credit for), and Ipsos (the historical site of Antigonus One-Eyed dying). It's like your Antigonid dynasty regaining international prestige by avenging your past. Anyways, your idea does fall within EBII's limitations, and more importantly teaches the player history.

The hard part is coding it though. You could take up learning how to mod M2TW. It's pretty fulfilling because it allows you to exercise your creativity to create interesting gameplay scenarios for you and the community to enjoy. And if you write good in-game descriptions backed up by historical sources for your Athenian/Spartan empire submod, it might even get integrated into the main mod! A similar thing happened with another player's (Lusitanio? Or Erken?) naval raiding submod

Making a sub-mod would have been cool but I'm afraid that I have the modding skills and technical inclination of a mashed tomato. Maybe some day but I'm afraid little to nothing will come from any attempt by me to mod a game. :/

[romulus_aeneas]

Scripts I've either written or plan to write to serve as a pseudo "Guaranteed Major Factions" submod for EBII. Of course, given I'm posting it in this thread, they are also suggestions for the team to consider so certain factions (like Rome and the Pahlava) have a higher chance to become major powers:

1. Auto-expansion for AI Rome to conquer Tarentum and Rhegion on turn 1. This ensures immediate control of the Italian peninsula, avoiding the sometimes embarrassing situation where Rome fails to conquer Rhegion by turn 100.
2. Auto-expansion for AI Rome to invade Messana when conquered by Carthage, imitating the Mamertines' plea for Roman aid. Most of the time Carthage retakes the city relatively quickly. Other times, however, Rome is able to secure the city and even take over Sicily.
3. Auto-expansion for AI Rome to conquer Cisalpine Gaul - Bononia, Patavium, and Mediolanium - after 225 BCE (turn 188) if any of those territories have not been conquered yet. This helps deal with the "super soldiers" who develop in Cisalpine Gaul from incessant warfare with Rome.
4. Auto-expansion for AI Carthage to conquer Qart Hadasht in 228 if not conquered by the.
5. Auto-rebellions in Asaak and Zadrakarta around 250 - I know this isn't the exact date Androgoras rebelled, but secondary sources are inconsistent on when Androgoras revolted and when Arasces then took the satrapy for himself - if still controlled by the Arche Seleukia to simulate Androgoras's attempt to form his own kingdom, which was then swiftly conquered by the Pahlava. The rebellions give the Pahlava a safe avenue to expand south into lucrative territories. These rebellions would occur regardless of the player's faction, meaning an AS player would need to repulse the invading rebels to maintain control of these provinces. In addition, this script encourages roleplay by Pahlavan players to wait until Androgoras's rebellion and then take Asaak and Zadrakarta.
6. Auto-expansion script for AI Pahlava to conquer Hekatompylos in 245 if still controlled by the AS. This script, in addition to the one above, would give the Pahlava control of the Parthian and Hyracanian satrapy, which AI Pahlava almost never rules in my experience.

There are more scripts in mind, but this seems like a good enough list to suggest how the submod would work. A caveat, however, is that this is catered towards 2.35's CAI. I have played 2.4's CAI for a good bit and feel these scripts would not be necessary if 2.4's CAI was unchanged for release.