Would people be interested in a late campaign mod, say circa 450AD?

**Aaldaemon** · April 30, 2015, 12:49 PM

I've been thinking about making a late campaign overhaul set in about 450AD or thereabouts, the date is not quite set in stone. The mod would have the first wave of barbarian kingdoms in place => the Vandals in North Africa, Suebi in western Hispania, Burgundi in SE Gallia, Visigoths in SW Gallia etc... and with a date of 450 Attila would still be around to terrorize people, while the Western Romans would be on their last legs, and I think it would be quite fun to rebuild the empire from that point. Aetius and a pre-Catalaunian Plains setting alone should make this interesting imho.

I'm still having an inner debate about the best date, given an early 470s date would also have its merits, but alas no Attila (or Aetius).

If people are interested I'll probably start serious work on this mod as soon as CA fix BOB and it begins to process the start_pos tables. If there's no interest in this mod I guess I'll just resurrect an alternate history mod of mine for my private consumption, as the light of Sol Invictus must become invincible.

**Majorien** · May 02, 2015, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Aaldaemon

I've been thinking about making a late campaign overhaul set in about 450AD or thereabouts, the date is not quite set in stone. The mod would have the first wave of barbarian kingdoms in place => the Vandals in North Africa, Suebi in western Hispania, Burgundi in SE Gallia, Visigoths in SW Gallia etc... and with a date of 450 Attila would still be around to terrorize people, while the Western Romans would be on their last legs, and I think it would be quite fun to rebuild the empire from that point. Aetius and a pre-Catalaunian Plains setting alone should make this interesting imho.

I'm still having an inner debate about the best date, given an early 470s date would also have its merits, but alas no Attila (or Aetius).

If people are interested I'll probably start serious work on this mod as soon as CA fix BOB and it begins to process the start_pos tables. If there's no interest in this mod I guess I'll just resurrect an alternate history mod of mine for my private consumption, as the light of Sol Invictus must become invincible.

The best date ? 457, the beginning of the Reign of Majorien. You have all the ingredients of a great campaign, weither you play Romans or Barbarians.
look at this map (from Wikipedia) : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rianEmpire.png

**Aaldaemon** · May 02, 2015, 01:49 PM

Thank you for the suggestion! It does look good but, I'm thinking 450 is slightly better for my particular tastes because you don't have the Visigoths in control in eastern Hispania yet (so they are not too powerful plus the Visigothic player has Hispanic conquests to look forward to), plus Attila and Aetius are still alive, so you still get to fight the ultimate Hunnic showdown. I guess it's personal preference but I kind of like the idea of having "the last of the Romans" around to toy with, Scythian or no Scythian hehe. But I admit I like Majorian as well, I'm thinking going a bit ahistorical and having him married to Placidia and as heir in 450 would be a fun twist, although she would be too young sigh...but hey aging her a bit wouldn't be that bad. Not sure what to do, and my alternate history predispositions are kicking in already.

**Majorien** · May 02, 2015, 03:36 PM

I think we all have a favorite character, timeframe, military positions, and people/kingdoms we dislikes ;-)
The point is Total war is the perfect way to make history our way, so i perfectly understand your preferences !
By the way uou can have both Aetius and Majorian, the second was one of the military commander under the first... sacked because Valentinian III wanted to marry his daughter to him.

**Aaldaemon** · May 02, 2015, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Majorien

I think we all have a favorite character, timeframe, military positions, and people/kingdoms we dislikes ;-)
The point is Total war is the perfect way to make history our way, so i perfectly understand your preferences !
By the way uou can have both Aetius and Majorian, the second was one of the military commander under the first... sacked because Valentinian III wanted to marry his daughter to him.

Yup, that's what I was talking about - have a minor alteration of reality by having him married to Placidia (Valentinian III's daughter) and not exiled by Aetius at all. That way he is there and can inherit.

**Magister Militum Flavius Aetius** · May 02, 2015, 04:07 PM

The Goths actually weren't in Eastern Hispania yet, most people get that wrong. Most of Spain belonged to the Suebes, barring Tarraconensis (which was still Roman), at the beginning of Majorian's reign, while the Goths remained confined to Aquitania.

The Goths didn't actually expand into Spain until after Majorian's death in 461, although they had campaigned under the Romans into the province several times.

Another reason for an interesting start date of 457 is because there would effectively be no Roman army, only town garrisons and barbarian federates.

EDIT: That map also forgets that Tingis and Caesarea were also (barely) under Roman control and would remain Roman until they formed the Romano-Mauri successor states after 476.

**Aaldaemon** · May 03, 2015, 02:34 AM

I must be becoming senile as my Iberian chronology is getting fuzzier every year, (my university days seem far away now hehe) but as far as I remember Theodoric II invaded Hispania in 456 and defeated the Suevi near Astorga in NW Iberia, and Rechiar the King of the Suevi was executed in December 456. Also Bracara Augusta (Braga the capital of the Suevi) had fallen in October 456 to the Visigoths. I think that in 457 the Visigoths were in control of quite a bit of territory especially in North/Central Hispania and they would start in far too strong a position, although yes Eastern Hispania wasn't truly theirs yet.

**Aaldaemon** · May 03, 2015, 02:48 AM

I can't add a paragraph to my earlier post apparently so... (no edit at my post count lol I guess, if only I could remember my original account and this one hadn't been reset haha)

I wanted to add that representing Iberia well in 457 before the Suevi recovery and the Visigothic withdrawal, would be a bit of a mess, things are more clear cut in 450.

**Magister Militum Flavius Aetius** · May 03, 2015, 08:05 AM

I must be becoming senile as my Iberian chronology is getting fuzzier every year, (my university days seem far away now hehe) but as far as I remember Theodoric II invaded Hispania in 456 and defeated the Suevi near Astorga in NW Iberia, and Rechiar the King of the Suevi was executed in December 456. Also Bracara Augusta (Braga the capital of the Suevi) had fallen in October 456 to the Visigoths.

I vaguely remember this as well but was never aware of such detail. Still, because they invaded doesn't necessarily mean they kept the territory, although I wouldn't be surprised if by this time the Goths had a nominal presence just south of the Pyrenees.

Aetius and Theodoric II defeated the Suebes in 453 and restored Tarraconensis and Carthaginensis to Roman rule, but after he was assassinated the whole region went to hell in a handbasket and the Suebes re-took most of the province by 455.

450 wasn't so clear-cut either. Most of Tarraconensis was under the Bacaudae of Basiliscus, the Suebes controlled pretty much the rest of the Pensinsula, and the Romans had a sliver of land running from Tarraco to Emporiae and north to their major power base in Narbona and Arelate.

**Aaldaemon** · May 03, 2015, 10:18 AM

I looked through my books given my memory is a wreck, and yes it appears the Suevi were pretty much on the brink in late 456 and early 457, Theodoric II even took Merida. According to the Chronicon of Hydatius: "the Suevic kingdom was destroyed and came to an end"... Obviously wrong in hindsight hehehe. So if the scenario was to start early 457 before the Visigothic withdrawal the Suevi would basically be pretty much cornered in the West.

Not so sure about how to best represent Tarraconensis in 450 to be honest... that's another can of worms altogether. I'll have to do some digging, a rather decent solution as far as I'm concerned would be Roman held but with rebel stacks around...

**Aaldaemon** · May 03, 2015, 04:17 PM

On the bagaudae rebels in Tarraconensis... I've been reading about them because my memory was lacking. Basilius led the rebellion in Tyriaso in 449 and apparently he was in favor of a Suevic takeover. One of the things he does is help Rechiar plunder Caesaraugusta (Zaragoza). Representing the bagaudae is tricky due to their nature... Making them a faction of their own does not appeal to me... I'm thinking having them as Hispanic rebels would be best.

Strangely enough the more I think about it the more I like 443 as a better date. One of they key things I want is to have the Burgundians in place ready to build their kingdom - and they were settled in Sapaudia in 443. 443 is also a better date for not having the Suevi rule over too much of Hispania, as Rechila is not quite done with his conquests. The Vandals have Carthage (another key desire of mine), while the Visigoths are ready to expand from Tolosa... so 443 might work too.

**Magister Militum Flavius Aetius** · May 03, 2015, 04:38 PM

Basiliscus was based in Tyrassio and sacked Ilerdensus (Ilerda), and basically invited Rechiar into Tarraconensis to sack Caesaraugusta. However by this time the Roman C&C in Spain had moved out of Caesaraugusta to Tarraco,

Representing the bagaudae is tricky due to their nature... Making them a faction of their own does not appeal to me... I'm thinking having them as Hispanic rebels would be best.

The Bacaudae were a generic term, representing them as "Spanish Bacaudae" would be best. The Aremoricans were also Bacaudae and so was the rebellion in Noricum. All of them were put down by Aetius although he eventually came to terms with the Aremoricans.

Strangely enough the more I think about it the more I like 443 as a better date. One of they key things I want is to have the Burgundians in place ready to build their kingdom - and they were settled in Sapaudia in 443. 443 is also a better date for not having the Suevi rule over too much of Hispania, as Rechila is not quite done with his conquests. The Vandals have Carthage (another key desire of mine), while the Visigoths are ready to expand from Tolosa... so 443 might work too.

The Frankish war would also begin the next year in 444 when they expanded out of Cologne and Trier and took Arras and then marched down to besiege Majorian in Tours. You would have Merobaudes in Spain with about half the province under Roman control.

The Goths really weren't up to much in the 440's, they had been pretty badly crushed by Aetius in 439 and would serve as Foederati in 446 under Vitus (they would desert though, unreliable barbarians...)

You'd also have the Roman allies of the Alans on the Loire and in Aurelianum (Orleans) and Valentia (Valentinois in France) that were settled in 440 and 442 respectively, and the Armorican Bacaudae revolted twice (in 442 and again in 447-448).

The 440's also effectively marked the end of Roman governance in Britain (archaeological evidence indicates a nominal Roman presence south of the Thames until roughly 440-450 AD.

**Aaldaemon** · May 04, 2015, 02:04 AM

I am increasingly thinking that the best way to go about this is to have a basic setup in place and then decide upon the tweaks needed to bring it in line with a particular date. So, when CA fix their assembly kit and it can actually process start_pos I could make the basics of the scenario,(the gods be good, i hope it's soon and not months from now) as in Vandals in Carthage, Visigoths in Tolosa, Suevi in NW Iberia etc and then move on from there. The problem is I like the period too much and would actually enjoy several scenarios...

Meanwhile I am thinking that I should start some actual work on changing the Alans a bit. I haven't looked at them after last patch and maybe they changed them slightly but I remember thinking that they would be top of the list to address in terms of unit looks/changes. I'm thinking of going with the Ammianus Marcellinus "tall and blonde" look but changing them to a more Sarmatian model.

Any particular suggestions on the Alans? I am going to see what I can find in my library and see wether CA's kit works well with unit making... I mean surely it can't work any worse than the complete failure of processing start_pos.

**Aaldaemon** · May 04, 2015, 03:17 AM

An early interpretation of an Alan elite cavalryman.

**Aaldaemon** · May 04, 2015, 03:33 AM

I still can't seem to be able to edit my posts... Well anyway an early variant of an elite Alani infantryman.

**Aaldaemon** · May 04, 2015, 04:07 AM

Agathyrsi and their famous blue hair.

**Grizwald714** · May 04, 2015, 08:52 AM

Awesome Idea I hope u make the mod

**Aaldaemon** · May 04, 2015, 11:49 AM

Thank you. If the assembly kit was working I would have released a new early version already, so people could tell me what to correct and do better hehe. Hopefully they fix the kit soon.