Underhand or Overhand for Hoplites/Spear Units?

[Garensterz]

So this is mainly my question for this mod. Have you decided which fighting stance you will apply for spear units? Is it even possible to implement overhand stance in the mod at this point?

[Black9]

So this is mainly my question for this mod. Have you decided which fighting stance you will apply for spear units? Is it even possible to implement overhand stance in the mod at this point?

I think it's possible to implement an overhand attack animation if you give spear units the javelin animation fragment. Unfortunately then the hoplites won't be able to kill anyone because an overhand thrust has no power in it.

[Juliuscivilus]

I think it's possible to implement an overhand attack animation if you give spear units the javelin animation fragment. Unfortunately then the hoplites won't be able to kill anyone because an overhand thrust has no power in it.

If you look on youtube you may find some different answers to the power of the overhand thrust

[Petellius]

If you look on youtube you may find some different answers to the power of the overhand thrust

Julius Civilis eh? My arch nemesis as it were (look up the batavian revolt if you don't know what I am on about).

[Garensterz]

Yes, it is possible in that way. A modder of Rome 2 have already done this. However, the problem in the modded overhand is when thrusting starts, it reverts back to it's original underhand form. So I was thinking if it is possible for us to experience hoplites use the overhand stance just like we see in Rome 1 mods?

Because something tells me that 1v1 mocap animations is the one that preventing all of this to happen.

[the lightning legion]

it may not look as dramatic, but I think underarm is the way to go.

[Sheridan]

This discussion has been brought up on a number of occasions in the team already, although not as a particularly heated topic. We've pretty much agreed upon using underarm animations for hoplites, and give the hoplite phalanx the type of appearance it would have in the original Rome. In other words, it'll look similar to a pike phalanx, but with shields facing front and spears held with a single hand. Obviously, they'll be shorter too, approximately 2.6 meters.

[Garensterz]

In other words, it'll look similar to a pike phalanx, but with shields facing front and spears held with a single hand. Obviously, they'll be shorter too, approximately 2.6 meters.

Are you saying that the spears of the hoplite phalanx will have a certain elevation from the front up to the back of the ranks? Like this?




[IM][/IMG]

[Sheridan]

Indeed, like the current pike phalanx. There are other potential types of representing the phalanx that I'm pretty sure we will experiment with though, so at the moment it's more conceptual and very much subject to change.

[Garensterz]

Indeed, like the current pike phalanx. There are other potential types of representing the phalanx that I'm pretty sure we will experiment with though, so at the moment it's more conceptual and very much subject to change.

Wow, this is becoming more and more interesting, honestly. Really looking forward to this type of hoplite stance. I didn't know you can do so much to the stance animations in a TW3 engine. So is modding Attila is as flexible as the pre warscape games, regarding on stances?

I'm much more concerned with creating hoplite formations that function, as Sheridan said.

The underhand hoplite grip is currently the one most widely accepted in the most recent scholarship, as well. I know for some people they link hoplites with underhand, and they have nostalgia for the old games/mods, but the stronger arguments rest with the underhand position for hoplite warfare.

But it is always possible to bring in overarm for those who want it.

Agreed, I would much prefer a functioning hoplite phalanx rather than not. Thanks for clearing things up team.

[Sheridan]

Wow, this is becoming more and more interesting, honestly. Really looking forward to this type of hoplite stance. I didn't know you can do so much to the stance animations in a TW3 engine. So is modding Attila is as flexible as the pre warscape games, regarding on stances?

I can't answer for the modability of pre-warscape titles, having never attempted to mod them, but regarding Attila and Rome II you can actually do surprisingly much with the animations and therefore by extent formations. Overhand is possible, as shown by Moon Hoplite's mod for Rome 2. His mod also showed that a lot more can be done with the formation, such as changing the shields to face front and be held with a single arm, as well as the spear. Unfortunately I think it's no longer up to date. There is a more recent mod for Rome 2 though by Phalangitis I believe, which you should definitely check out if you haven't already. His changes are more subtle, changing the regular hoplite phalanx into something slightly better looking, with spears facing forwards instead of up like they do in vanilla.

[ABH2]

I'm much more concerned with creating hoplite formations that function, as Sheridan said.

The underhand hoplite grip is currently the one most widely accepted in the most recent scholarship, as well. I know for some people they link hoplites with underhand, and they have nostalgia for the old games/mods, but the stronger arguments rest with the underhand position for hoplite warfare.

But it is always possible to bring in overarm for those who want it.

[TallestDavid]

moonhoplite mod does it well. and even has the more modern hoplite phalangites. but he disapeared... maybe got stbbed by a under arm hoplite...

i wish CA didnt hated the overarm stance... theres no way to use under arm without harming groins..

[Willhelm123]

Having messed about with spears and just going off human bodies, pure overarm seems awkward as hell. The way it is now in AE seems perfect, it's held underarm at rest but attacks can be over or under, which seems natural and depends on the situation, i think it would be ridiculous to assume a hoplite would limit themselves to one form of attack. Also something no one ever seems to realise, but if you hold a spear underarm, but then bring it straight up into the overarm position, the buttspike, which is quite long and sharp on hoplite spears, is instantly ready to thrust from the overarm position, so i think that may have been a purpose of that buttspike as well as finishing fallen enemies.

[KAM 2150]

No to mention that entire point of using spear is range advantage, something that overhand stance completly losses sinceh the range becomes similar to sword, but with much more limited movement and power.

[Draewn]

The thing that really bugs me? The artists went to the effort on a lot of the counterbalanced spears of putting on fabric or leather hand-grips at the proper point of balance (following Christopher Matthew's balance math on this one) near the rear-weight (only a fraction of the way 'up' the spear). Whether that was historical practice, I don't know, but it was a cool touch. Except the animations are all based on having the thing held near the middle (it's odd - they seem to standardize on having a given length of spear out the back, so short spears end up being held in really silly fashions with like a foot of reach), so they have the grip properly set up RIGHT THERE and the guy's using it wrong anyway. I really wonder how the two teams got that out of sync, to be honest. But every time I see it it's like "SO CLOSE, yet so far away."

Though really I don't know how the engine would react to having combat between infantry actually occur at spears' length (that is, the range that is practical if you're holding thing the way it's engineered to be held), rather than utterly pushed in together.