So lets talk about Warhammer...

[VltimaRatio]

I agree with the cartoonishness of Warhammer diminishing it somewhat as a setting. But one has to keep in mind it's all designed for miniatures using "heroic" scale, i.e. hands, heads and stuff like weapons being over-sized, not so much for the aesthetics as for the ease of painting. It's all over the place in a lot of ways, and IMO would be a better setting if the visuals were more grounded in reality and there was a bit more coherence in the world (technology etc).

I would prefer aSoIaF:TW myself. The magic is toned down and wouldn't affect battle gameplay much with the exception of dragons (they would kind of break it though, they're basically the nukes of the setting). It would still make for a very good game with a proper character/politics system. LOTR could be good but the conflict is so one-sided strength wise the good guys' military victories were all just about winning time at the end of the day. An accurate LOTR TW would have to be more of a "survive X turns until the ring can be destroyed".

On an unrelated note, that graph clearly shows Medieval 3 is what most people want. I keep hearing rumors about China TW. Hope that's not the case but that's for another thread.

[Gromovnik]

Stuff like this deserves a permanent facepalm by both Jesus & Picard:

[StringingTerror]

After reading much of this thread. I understand why people are for and against Warhammer. Let me start off by saying, no I'm not a Warhammer fan, I've never played a board war game like it. And I probably never will. Nevertheless I'm still excited for this game announcement. Why you may be asking yourself? Well, it's no secret Creative Assembly screwed the pooch with the last big game release Rome 2. So much so that they are still suffering from fan fatigue and criticism lasting well into Attila's release. Well you may be asking yourselves what does this have to do with Warhammer?

This is the reason why it's important, This is CA's chance to redeem themselves with true unavoidable faction diversity (with model's, tactics, weapons etc.). With new and unique features they can not regurgitate the same diplomacy screen that has hampered the series (though in a mass war setting this will take a back seat). HOPEfully they see this as more than just a cashgrab ,though even I'll admit it looks like Warhammer universe is underserved. So all this culminates to make a game that could address all the negativity and flak they've received and make something different. Hopefully the developers assigned to this are excited to do something different and take the chance to make something memorable. But of course I'll be on my guard. No amount of fluff DLC will have me preorder this, the true colors of CA and Sega have been shown before so I caution everyone to stay prudent when it comes to preorder bonus BS because we've been down that road with Rome 2.

TL;DR Sega and CA have an opportunity to win back the fan's they lost and then some, hopefully they don't rush this game and screw it all up. Anyways that's my two cents on the subject

[Nicolaos]

That doesn't make much sense to me. You have LOTR which is high fantasy good vs evil where good wins because (actually there is a lot of bad writing in Tolkein where the reason for something is "because plot hole filler"). Then you have Asoiaf where basically everyone is bad (except for a lot of the Starks), there's not a lot of magic (there's more in the books than the show) and it's much more realistic. And then you have Warhammer which is a high fantasy where everyone is bad, it's more realistic than LOTR (but less than asoiaf) but it's also a hyperbolic dark ages setting.

So basically you like Lotr and asoiaf but the "middle ground" between those extremes you don't like? To me that's a bit strange, but I'm fine with your personal taste even if you only like extremes.

[...]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I agree they look totally unrealistic. Oh wait sorry I meant they look like landsknechts and completely realistic.

Like? To be honest I can't think of any. The whole set up for Warhammer seems like it was originally made for Total War.

[...]

As for the LOTR. Yes, it is the old fight of good vs evil. And yes, it kinda marks an extreme for me. However, I see Warhammer beyond that extreme, rendering it unattractive for me in terms of realism level.
If it helps you to understand my "fantasy-barometer", it would kinda look like this:
Anime fantasy, Warcraft, Warhammer, LOTR, The Elder Scrolls, Westeros
There might be more settings that could be thrown in there, but I think it kinda makes my point. Of course this is only my personal opinion.

Those Landknecht guys, I have to admit, look awesome and not cartoonish at all, but it's a shame (to me) they stand in stark contrast to other factions and units in that universe and exist in the same game world.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Something like that just looks too cartoony for my personal taste.

It will be interesting to see how CA will bring Warhammer to TW, but for now I am not excited.

[caratacus]

Quote StringingTerror "Sega and CA have an opportunity to win back the fan's they lost and then some, hopefully they don't rush this game and screw it all up."

That statement, sounds very familiar over the years.

It won't be the same as other releases, because CA are working on game licensed by another games company. Time will tell what the result will be. But partnerships between companies, like people, are seldom ever completely smooth and trouble free. CA will not be free to do as they choose, as was the case for previous Total War games.

For instance I would be very surprised if Warhammer TW didn't have its own dedicated website. It is a different animal to the other games in the TW series and is being done in partnership with another company (Games Workshop) Such a website would have its own forum for fans to chat and be a portal for multiplayer. It would also be a means of promoting and selling DLC and Warhammer merchandise. The controlling hand for such a website would of course likely be Games Workshop not Creative Assembly.

Turning this table top game with millions of fans around the World, into a pc strategy sim is an important step for Games Workshop, they won't allow any slip ups. In fact, If Warhammer is a success, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Game Workshop becomes a long term partner of Creative Assembly. Given the Company's uncertain future in recent years, it quite simply cannot be left to fail.

[Humble Warrior]

Stuff like this deserves a permanent facepalm by both Jesus & Picard:

Dare I say I think that`s a pretty cool picture. Looks like a powerfully-built Orc. While I have never been a Warhammer fan, I do have a weak spot for quasi-medieval fantasy stuff like this. Yep, the dimensions are heroic and unrealistic to life, but that`s really how I like it.

Just me, I guess.

[craziii]

the amount of negativity even before any info is even out is astounding. yes, I used the stupid ass word. and surprise! from the same posters! I am so surprised!

[Diocle]

I played historical tabletop games and fantasy tabletop games as a lot of people here, you can love history and at the same time Fantasy, as did prof. J.R.R. Tolkien.


The point is that this decision of a Warhammer game is really a risky choice because while it's true that there are people loving to play both Historical and Fantasy games, it's also true that it's not easy passing from history to fantasy in few months, if you haven't still played or read something about the Fantasy environment of Warhammer, then, CA tells us that they'll bring us back, to real history, with their next title after Warhammer (at this point I can only hope in some sort of Medieval 3 TW), this could be too much even for the most devoted CA-fanboys (I'm not one of them, CA is good if and when it makes good games and sadly this is no more happening from a lot of time), you have just begun to understand who actually are those horrid, evil and dangerous creatures named Skaven and why the future could belong to them and then ... you are sent back, once again, into real history!




It's a risky choice! It's a dangerous trip between two dialectic worlds without the time to fully understand and enjoy the experience, it's some sort of shocking jumping between History and Fantasy and History again, if this is a way to fidelize the public .. I haven't understood the concept of fidelization in marketing, sorry, it's my fault!

[StringingTerror]

"That statement, sounds very familiar over the years.

It won't be the same as other releases, because CA are working on game licensed by another games company. Time will tell what the result will be. But partnerships between companies, like people, are seldom ever completely smooth and trouble free. CA will not be free to do as they choose, as was the case for previous Total War games...
Turning this table top game with millions of fans around the World, into a pc strategy sim is an important step for Games Workshop, they won't allow any slip ups. In fact, If Warhammer is a success, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Game Workshop becomes a long term partner of Creative Assembly. Given the Company's uncertain future in recent years, it quite simply cannot be left to fail."

I really hope you are on point with this. I've heard some bad things about Games Workshop, as it pertains to fan friendly features(modding especially), so I hope any misconceptions about GW and CA are squashed when they release a polished game with new features.

[jtfjtfjtf]

I played historical tabletop games and fantasy tabletop games as a lot of people here, you can love history and at the same time Fantasy, as did prof. J.R.R. Tolkien.


The point is that this decision of a Warhammer game is really a risky choice because while it's true that there are people loving to play both Historical and Fantasy games, it's also true that it's not easy passing from history to fantasy in few months, if you haven't still played or read something about the Fantasy environment of Warhammer, then, CA tells us that they'll bring us back, to real history, with their next title after Warhammer (at this point I can only hope in some sort of Medieval 3 TW), this could be too much even for the most devoted CA-fanboys (I'm not one of them, CA is good if and when it makes good games and sadly this is no more happening from a lot of time), you have just begun to understand who actually are those horrid, evil and dangerous creatures named Skaven and why the future could belong to them and then ... you are sent back, once again, into real history!



It's a risky choice! It's a dangerous trip between two dialectic worlds without the time to fully understand and enjoy the experience, it's some sort of shocking jumping between History and Fantasy and History again, if this is a way to fidelize the public .. I haven't understood the concept of fidelization in marketing, sorry, it's my fault!

I think it'll be too much for people who only play total war historical games and are interested in only historical things. But for everyone else, we're pretty good at jumping between different genres and moods and levels of fiction. I'm going to watch mayweather/pacquiao and then next week i'll watch the Avengers, and my brain won't be broken because one is a completely real sport and the other has flying robots, and a giant green monster. In between i'll play some GTA (more realistic) and also maybe some Dragon Age (less realistic).

[StringingTerror]

I think it'll be too much for people who only play total war historical games and are interested in only historical things. But for everyone else, we're pretty good at jumping between different genres and moods and levels of fiction. I'm going to watch mayweather/pacquiao and then next week i'll watch the Avengers, and my brain won't be broken because one is a completely real sport and the other has flying robots, and a giant green monster. In between i'll play some GTA (more realistic) and also maybe some Dragon Age (less realistic).

That's probably the reason surrounding all the negativity of the Warhammer announcement. I like you have no problem with high fantasy or gritty realism, if the games fun it's fun. Simple as that. But some people are acting like this will be a deathblow for CA... even though CA came out and said they are still developing the next Historical game concurrently. Idk, I guess as humans we are just wired to dislike things that are different.

[Markas]

I played historical tabletop games and fantasy tabletop games as a lot of people here, you can love history and at the same time Fantasy, as did prof. J.R.R. Tolkien.

Good point.

The point is that this decision of a Warhammer game is really a risky choice because while it's true that there are people loving to play both Historical and Fantasy games, it's also true that it's not easy passing from history to fantasy in few months, if you haven't still played or read something about the Fantasy environment of Warhammer, then, CA tells us that they'll bring us back, to real history, with their next title after Warhammer (at this point I can only hope in some sort of Medieval 3 TW), this could be too much even for the most devoted CA-fanboys (I'm not one of them, CA is good if and when it makes good games and sadly this is no more happening from a lot of time), you have just begun to understand who actually are those horrid, evil and dangerous creatures named Skaven and why the future could belong to them and then ... you are sent back, once again, into real history!

That's possible, Warhammer and Total war have a considerable overlap of fans and the popularity of fantasy like GoT and The Hobbit will bring them even closer together. A concern could be that the Warhammer game is wildly successful and overshadow the Historical games completely. CA are pretty much a monopoly in this genre so there's no other companies to take up the slack if they concentrate on a lucrative Warhammer franchise. Also, like me you want a Med 3, but as the Warhammer universe is set in a medieval/renaissance inspired world will they make another game with such (admittedly bastardized) similarities? I dunno.

[Lugo]

I agree with the cartoonishness of Warhammer diminishing it somewhat as a setting. But one has to keep in mind it's all designed for miniatures using "heroic" scale, i.e. hands, heads and stuff like weapons being over-sized, not so much for the aesthetics as for the ease of painting. It's all over the place in a lot of ways, and IMO would be a better setting if the visuals were more grounded in reality and there was a bit more coherence in the world (technology etc).

What a ridiculous complaint. *cries* 'this grimdark fantasy tabletop game isn't realistic enough'

I would prefer aSoIaF:TW myself. The magic is toned down and wouldn't affect battle gameplay much with the exception of dragons (they would kind of break it though, they're basically the nukes of the setting). It would still make for a very good game with a proper character/politics system. LOTR could be good but the conflict is so one-sided strength wise the good guys' military victories were all just about winning time at the end of the day. An accurate LOTR TW would have to be more of a "survive X turns until the ring can be destroyed".
.

No. And when has CA ever done proper politics? If you want a proper ASOIAF game play the CK2 mod.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I can completely understand not liking the Orcish visuals. I don't particularly care for them, myself, but you also have to understand that they are somewhat of a comedic faction. They all talk with ridiculous cockney accents, and carry stupid looking weapons, and their entire society is based around whoever is the biggest and meanest, and their "Crusade" is called a, "WAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH."

"Over the Top" is the name of the game for orcs. They are not meant to be taken seriously. Until one's giant axe is crashing down through your head, at least.


Chaos, which is the second picture Nicolaos posted, is not meant to be silly. Their top-tier units, like, that one, have exaggerated proportions, because they are not human. Well, barely human. The vile magicks of the Chaos gods have warped and twisted them into acting as their champions in the mortal world, allowing them greater powers and stature.


I mean, people complain about the contrast between the regular humans and all these fantastical creatures, but that's rather the point. The Empire has to stand against these horrendous monsters with nothing but discipline, tactics, and zeal. And the occasional mage or mighty hero.

[jtfjtfjtf]

I agree with the cartoonishness of Warhammer diminishing it somewhat as a setting. But one has to keep in mind it's all designed for miniatures using "heroic" scale, i.e. hands, heads and stuff like weapons being over-sized, not so much for the aesthetics as for the ease of painting. It's all over the place in a lot of ways, and IMO would be a better setting if the visuals were more grounded in reality and there was a bit more coherence in the world (technology etc).

The exaggerated proportions and silhouettes are done for visual identification from a couple feet away from a table top. Video game titles will do it as well, just look at any of Blizzard's RTS games. The current lack of detail in WH minis is done for ease of painting.

[Huberto]

I think it'll be too much for people who only play total war historical games and are interested in only historical things. But for everyone else, we're pretty good at jumping between different genres and moods and levels of fiction. I'm going to watch mayweather/pacquiao and then next week i'll watch the Avengers, and my brain won't be broken because one is a completely real sport and the other has flying robots, and a giant green monster. In between i'll play some GTA (more realistic) and also maybe some Dragon Age (less realistic).

I'm playing some Dragon Age right now and keeping my eye on the NFL draft and the NHL playoffs.

But TW fantasy? 1 in 3 of us can't stand the idea.

[Lugo]

I'm playing some Dragon Age right now and keeping my eye on the NFL draft and the NHL playoffs.

But TW fantasy? 1 in 3 of us can't stand the idea.

Dragon Age, the series the series that oversexualised a bull for the sake of fan pandering.

I take it as a compliment that you can't stand Total War: Warhammer.

[Toho]

I dont understand why some of us here have to convince Huberto about how fun this game will be.
If he does not want to get it or like it well that's his problem and if he is worried about historical games well... CA said there is another team that is continuing with the historical games.
So if CA sticks with the current status quo of game releases:

June E3 for Warhammer -> late 2016 release for new Warhammer game -> 1.5 years later new expansion -> 1.5 years later new expansion.
So basically the next Historical Total War game would be around 2018 or 2019 that's only 3 or 4 years, hardly that long.

As for other fantasy games repeatedly mentioned:
ASOIF: basically just medieval 3, needs INCREDIBLE amount of diplomacy, very few factions and cultural differences. The only thing it has going for it is a good plot.
Tamriel: Very few factions, limited lore (and Bethesda likes to keep its lore secrete)
LOTR: the factions are basically good vs evil, the lore makes it impossible for elves vs humans vs dwarves or dwarves allying with mordor to kill hobbits. Immersion breaking and it makes no sense.
Warhammer: everyone fights everyone, vast amount of factions, full of fantasy.
Dragon Age: only 3 or 4 factions/races. I think that speaks for itself.

[Huberto]

I take it as a compliment that you can't stand Total War: Warhammer.

With Warhammer TW has become a parody of itself. And no respecting WH fan should accuse another game of over-doing anything.

Toho, we can't have 3 quality WH games and the regular schedule of TW games, and expect something not to suffer.

[Toho]

Toho, we can't have 3 quality WH games and the regular schedule of TW games, and expect something not to suffer.

what are you basing this off of?
you do realize they have hundreds of employees working on different projects right? Alien Isolation was made by CA, do you think the same people that worked on that worked on Attila?
No, probably not.