Greeks Rule! -or- 50 Regions in 14 Turns

[Gaius Julius Caesar II]

I have bettered Genius Of The Restoration's (GotR) Greek City States Speed Run by two turns, accomplishing it on VH/VH difficulty using large size units on a vanilla RTW installation and actually taking 51 cities in 14 turns.


My apologies if someone else has already done this. I could not find anything by searching except GotR's original post.

Apparently someone else has done this, see post #7.

See http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ties-Speed-Run for GotR's original post.


　

APPRECIATION:


To Genius Of The Restoration for his Greek Cities Speed Run forum post and also to Willowran for his post in http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...e-Thread/page3 which explained a Messana battle strategy which I adapted to finally crush it on VH difficulty level after many frustrating losses or insufficient wins.


BACKGROUND:


When I read Genius Of The Restoration's Gaul and Greek campaign descriptions here last year I decided that trying to imitate them would be a good way for me to improve my own RTW skills. I've described my Gaul experience in http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...un-record-time.

I ran the GCS campaign on Easy (22 turns), Medium (22 turns) and Hard (20 turns) difficulty levels trying to follow his path. While mapping out his campaign I noticed that GotR had not fully exploited the crescent of cities around the east end of the Mediterranean. I thought this might provide a way to improving on his performance. After mapping out a new strategy along with some other changes I came up with, I ran a new series of campaigns using my plan starting at VH/E difficulty (13 turns) to prove that my ideas were valid, then at VH/H (14 turns) and after I cracked the battle of MESSANA a run at VH/VH in 16 turns and, finally, the second run in 14 turns.


CAMPAIGN DIARY AND SCREEN PRINTS:

Luck with spies was an important part of the campaign. I didn't record every time a spy or spies opened a gate but there were a lot. No redos were made to try to change spy results. I was just lucky. The diary was made after each turn but has been edited. Cities in CAPITALS were captured that turn.

Greek City States Campaign Diary - second attempt at VH/VH


1. My mercenaries easily took NICOMEDIA but the battles for MESSANA and CORINTH had higher casualties on my side than I was comfortable with but I decided to press on. The tough battles against Carthage and the Macedonians I expect on the third turn should tell me if my decision was correct.


2. ATHENS, SALAMIS and APOLLONIA fell easily but the increased aggression(or higher morale) of the enemy on the VH difficulty level as compared to the Hard level where I did my "dry runs" was apparent. It easier to notice this when I have fought the same battles at different difficulty levels.


The battle in the Sicilian hills against the 3 units of Carthaginian town militia and skirmishers went off perfectly and I got a Man of the Hour to go with the adopted general I picked up at the start of the turn. I'm looking forward to turn 3.


3. A very low casualty, thanks to having two extra generals, but incomplete victory against the Carthaginian elephants will complicate the seige of Lilybaeum. The Brutii have shown up casting envious eyes at Messana from their ships. LARISSA and ANCYRA fell on schedule with acceptable casualties.


But the great events were, first, that my Spartan spy opened the gate at THESSALONICA and I took the city from its general in a fierce battle on the town square and then held off the reinforcing four units of Macedonian militia hoplites for a time expiration victory and, second, an Egyptian fleet attack couldn't stop my navy and army from Rhodes via Salamis and my spy opened the gate at TARSUS for second early region seizure!


This puts me ahead of schedule on two of the three critical conquest lines. I have 15 regions at the end of three turns. I moved the capital to Athens to increase my income and my financial situation is satisfactory as I bought everything I needed this turn.


4. The two Carthaginian generals made mincemeat of most of my infantry but died on their spears anyway and the elephants were driven mad by fire arrows so LILYBAEUM was mine. SALONA fell easily and I picked up another Man of the Hour general. Then, my spy luck continued and I took down BYLAZORA and ANTIOCH when they opened the gates. I've never had four gate openings in two turns ever before. Macedon has been destroyed in only four turns and I have 19 regions now.




5. The quietest turn by far. I destroyed the Brutii who had laid siege to Messana. In turn I laid siege to Croton, Byzantium and Sidon.


6. I took CROTON, BYZANTIUM and SIDON. My army aimed for Egypt stopped off to take KYDONIA but failed to create a general. This is the only serious snag so far. My wonder spy opened the gates at TYLIS and I took it with my two lead generals. Mazaka and Tarentum have been placed under seige. I am up to 24 regions. Funds are ample since the cities I'm taking are mostly large enough to need to be exterminated since I can't afford to leave troops to garrison anyplace.


7. My army at Tarentum was attacked and driven off but my generals survived and were able to reinstate the siege with a larger force. MAZAKA fell and I have marched on Sinope. Two spies opened the gates at JERUSALEM as my luck continued and I took the city after a desperate fight against a strong reinforcing Egyptian army. My army is, however, wrecked and the Seleucids have a strong garrison at Damascus. I was able to create additional Man of the Hour generals in Asia Minor and the Balkans who will be very useful. Things are getting tougher but that is to be expected.


8. I captured TARENTUM and extinguished the Brutii. My fleet has observed that there are strong forces of Scipii around Capua. SEGESTICA fell to my Army of the Adriatic. Other armies are on the move. An attempt to relieve a Seleucid siege of Antioch failed in a desperate battle and I might lose it next turn. I now have 28 regions but for all my luck with city gates that is only one region ahead of my schedule. I'm beginning to worry that I might get stretched too thin to accomplish my goal of victory in 14 turns.




9. Antioch barely held when attacked by the Seleucids. SINOPE fell, ending the Pontic faction. A force from Jerusalem captured BOSTRA. I am besieging Sardis and Porolissum. I bribed two Seleucid diplomats in Asia Minor. It's expensive but they will bribe away my cities (like on the first attempt) if I don't get rid of them.


10. My forces captured SARDIS and POROLISSUM and a general and some cavalry rushed to capture CAMPUS IAZYGES just ahead of a Dacian reinforcing army. My army from Sparta has arrived in Egypt. I sent an army to Carthage to find it under siege by Numidia. An army to Chersonesos found it under siege by Scythians and moved on toward Tanais. This is complicating things. I bribed away two more Seleucid diplomats. I am building very little but the cost of the bribes and reinforcements has left me penniless. I have 33 regions.


11. My forces captured CAPUA, CAMPUS GETAE, and LUVAVUM. I now have 36 regions but I think there is little chance of reaching 50 regions in 14 turns. The Numidians had captured Carthage so I laid siege to it. The main SPQR army is standing directly between Capua and Rome. I'll have to go around it.


12. I captured ROME(with the aid of several spies), CARTHAGE, HALICARNASSUS, PALMYRA and CAMPUS SCYTHII . My army at Alexandria was crushed by the Egyptian Faction Leader and is awaiting reinforcements from an army which was driven away from an attempt to get to Cyrene by pirates. I have 17 living and one KIA general. About 15 Greek armies are in operation around the Mediterranean world plus single unit garrisons. I am supporting about 6 stacks of army units altogether. I have 41 regions and am within a two turn reach of 9 or 10 more.




13. My attempt to get to Thapsus was thwarted by a large Carthagenian army. Alexandria has been resieged and much of the Egyptian army appears to have moved off. I captured ARRETIUM, TANAIS and ACQUINCUM. This brings my regions to 44 and I will have 7 chances on turn 14 to take the 6 cities I need.


14. The Gauls laying siege to Salona attacked but I fended them off with the help of reinforcements I had shipped over from Italy on turn 13. I captured CARALIS, SEGESTA, PATAVIUM, VICUS VENEDAE, PETRA and ALEXANDRIA to achieve victory. After a celebration and giving my soldiers an hour off, I took DAMASCUS to run up the region total to 51.



　


　



　

I have a YouTube channel and I have posted videos of the campaign there.
The playlist is:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...TCJLkyUKX8Deuy


The commentary is not very entertaining, I'm afraid, but the videos show how it can be done.
The videos have been edited with some of the more boring parts trimmed or cut out.



The first two videos are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpf7cTi2_-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjbpy9RIqbs


MORE TO DO


That I did it in 13 turns on VH/E suggests that it is theoretically possible to do it in 13 turns on VH/VH by someone with supreme battle skills. I am dubious about 12 turns being possible since I had to take 6 cities in the 13th turn in the easy campaign and I couldn't see a way to shorten all six paths.

[benne]

Impressive. I have done it pretty fast with greek too (24 or something, without trying), so I see how it can be done with careful planning and much work. I don't think anyone will do better on vh vh. If so, that is on 13 turns. and I guess that that twice the time you already have put into it.

What is your next goal??



Istead of trying to do campaigns faster and faster (I have done that too, with romans), I have tried to

1. do migration campaings. My last was to take thrace to britain with boats, and take it from there. When I quit I had 20+ cities and was very sure I would win the campaign easily with phalanx pikes and shirmish horses. I have done the same with egypt but that was too easy. Thrace is perfect to do migrations with, because they start at a poor location, have cheap troops, and are not a big civ (which makes it difficult to take on the once you meet)

2. I have also done hannibal style by marching elefants from carthage to Roma via North africa, spain etc. Buying merchants on the way. My last battle with trained merchants and a few of the original troops was epic.

3. Try to make the most secure, easy and fun campaign. The best one was scipi (romans have very fun and good troops early and late game). Take 6-7 cities in chartage area and have and army in carthage to secure them. The red romans will secure my capital. Then I take boats to southern greece and take cities until I meet green romans. They will secure my greece cities from northern invaders. Then I take boats and take the iselands, and start on the turkish cities. I have one army in the pontus capital to protect from northern invaders. Then I go south against antioc etc. I stop In the city after antioc because damaskus, alexandria, memphis only have bad pop growth. I have an army here to secure from parthian and egypt invasion. This way I have around 25 cities and only need 3 armies to protect non-roman bordes. I also have the cities and trade routes that give much and easy money. After this I start to make army to attack red and green romans. Often the reform have come at this point, so I had to make new armies anyway. Usually I would have 10 armies with old roman style troops, and I will sadly loose many troops. Now I don't have this problem. Greens and reds roman usually gives me enough cities to win. This is a perfect strategy for players that want fun and easy campaigns even on vh vh

[Gaius Julius Caesar II]

Impressive. I have done it pretty fast with greek too (24 or something, without trying), so I see how it can be done with careful planning and much work. I don't think anyone will do better on vh vh. If so, that is on 13 turns. and I guess that that twice the time you already have put into it.

What is your next goal??



Istead of trying to do campaigns faster and faster (I have done that too, with romans), I have tried to

1. do migration campaings. My last was to take thrace to britain with boats, and take it from there. When I quit I had 20+ cities and was very sure I would win the campaign easily with phalanx pikes and shirmish horses. I have done the same with egypt but that was too easy. Thrace is perfect to do migrations with, because they start at a poor location, have cheap troops, and are not a big civ (which makes it difficult to take on the once you meet)

2. I have also done hannibal style by marching elefants from carthage to Roma via North africa, spain etc. Buying merchants on the way. My last battle with trained merchants and a few of the original troops was epic.

3. Try to make the most secure, easy and fun campaign. The best one was scipi (romans have very fun and good troops early and late game). Take 6-7 cities in chartage area and have and army in carthage to secure them. The red romans will secure my capital. Then I take boats to southern greece and take cities until I meet green romans. They will secure my greece cities from northern invaders. Then I take boats and take the iselands, and start on the turkish cities. I have one army in the pontus capital to protect from northern invaders. Then I go south against antioc etc. I stop In the city after antioc because damaskus, alexandria, memphis only have bad pop growth. I have an army here to secure from parthian and egypt invasion. This way I have around 25 cities and only need 3 armies to protect non-roman bordes. I also have the cities and trade routes that give much and easy money. After this I start to make army to attack red and green romans. Often the reform have come at this point, so I had to make new armies anyway. Usually I would have 10 armies with old roman style troops, and I will sadly loose many troops. Now I don't have this problem. Greens and reds roman usually gives me enough cities to win. This is a perfect strategy for players that want fun and easy campaigns even on vh vh

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I'm thinking about a full map campaign as I've never done one, but I don't know what target (# turns) to shoot for.

I think the Greeks are the best faction for it just as in the 50 citycampaign but maybe the Brutii or someone else would overtake them in a longer campaign. If I do one it won't be for a while. It will take a lot of planning and practice. I spent about 150-200 hours on the GCS campaigns all added together.

I don't try to do every campaign faster and faster. These are special cases. I do try to play aggressively always now.

1. Migration campaigns may be fun but I've never done one. I just did a Thracian campaign after starting to watch the LegendofTotalWar/Biscuits joint campaign on Youtube. I think they start in a good location, just north of Macedon, which gives them a quick road to the Greek cities and all their wealth.
They're really not that bad, only took me 39 turns for 50 cities on VH/VH. Having a huge spypack helped with going through Italy. It's easy when your spies have a 105% chance of opening the gates.
2. The Hannibal idea looks very interesting. I've been thinking about doing a Carthage campaign for fun and that looks like a fun way.
3. I'm looking more for harder campaigns but another interesting approach.

Video update: I know I promised videos but this week has been very busy. I have two on Youtube so far and when I get the playlist established and the busy work done, I'll release them to the public.
They have been released. See post #1.

[alhoon]

OMG... That's impressive.

To see the theoretical "limit", you could do a bit of research but it would be a bit tedious. You could modify the autoresolve so that you ALWAYS win and see how long it takes to capture 50 cities if even 1 unit can take a full garrison. Personally, since I'm not adept at moving my armies, I doubt I could get 50 cities in 15 turns even with that.

[Gaius Julius Caesar II]

Hi!
Thanks for the idea but I've never even heard of modifying the autoresolve. How do you do that?

[benne]

I guess Greeks is the fastest. Building trees and temples doesn't mather at full map controll either I guess, as long as it is under 30 turns.

House rules can help making campaigns difficult. And I don't mean complicated rules. Just one rule perhaps.
Once I did a campaign with scythia without using horsearches vhvh of course. that was my hardest campaign. I used 40-50 turns. No spies.

I have also tried parhia without horse archers, but I failed. Perhaps I will try again.

I have read about campaigns with only peasants and generals. But that sounds a bit boring.

[Gaius Julius Caesar II]

I guess Greeks is the fastest. Building trees and temples doesn't mather at full map controll either I guess, as long as it is under 30 turns.

House rules can help making campaigns difficult. And I don't mean complicated rules. Just one rule perhaps.
Once I did a campaign with scythia without using horsearches vhvh of course. that was my hardest campaign. I used 40-50 turns. No spies.

I have also tried parhia without horse archers, but I failed. Perhaps I will try again.

I have read about campaigns with only peasants and generals. But that sounds a bit boring.

Now, that's impressive! I plan on a Scythian campaign sometime soon but I will use horse archers. They're why I'm doing the campaign.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Very impressive!

This may be infuriating for everyone involved, but there is at least one other person who has done it in 14 turns. They contacted me a few years ago telling me about it but I can't find the messages for the life of me... they didn't go into much detail about exactly what they did though, so this is a welcome sight.

Have you thought about a rebel campaign? It's a very different sort of game that I thought was very fun. Also, further spruiking of stuff I've done in the past, have you seen this campaign battle thread? Some of those are pretty fun and I enjoyed challenging and trying different battles to see what worked.

Bravo!

[alhoon]

Hi!
Thanks for the idea but I've never even heard of modifying the autoresolve. How do you do that?

Well... the "Guaranteed major factions survival" does that with a script. It actually gives huge bonuses to major factions against minor factions, except if the player's faction is involved in any way (i.e. a minor that is vassal\ally of the player won't get trampled by majors)
You could change that so that it ONLY applies to the player and against everyone.

[Gaius Julius Caesar II]

Well... the "Guaranteed major factions survival" does that with a script. It actually gives huge bonuses to major factions against minor factions, except if the player's faction is involved in any way (i.e. a minor that is vassal\ally of the player won't get trampled by majors)
You could change that so that it ONLY applies to the player and against everyone.

Thanks.

[Gaius Julius Caesar II]

Very impressive!

This may be infuriating for everyone involved, but there is at least one other person who has done it in 14 turns. They contacted me a few years ago telling me about it but I can't find the messages for the life of me... they didn't go into much detail about exactly what they did though, so this is a welcome sight.

Have you thought about a rebel campaign? It's a very different sort of game that I thought was very fun. Also, further spruiking of stuff I've done in the past, have you seen this campaign battle thread? Some of those are pretty fun and I enjoyed challenging and trying different battles to see what worked.

Bravo!

Thank you.

I'm not surprised that someone else or many someone elses has done it. But I didn't know, didn't know if I could and now I know.
If anyone would be infuriated it would be me. But I'm not. I'm strangely happy with it. I wanted to do something and I succeeded. People still climb Mount Everest knowing they're not the first.
And I've learned a new word.
I just finished my first SPQR campaign and I'm pretty sure I did at least a short campaign for each faction when I first got the game in, I now believe, November 2006. The rebel campaign is the only one I'm sure I've never done. It's on my to do list. So many campaigns, so little time.
The campaign battle thread is the one where I got Willowran's idea for the Messana battle.

[Rijul.J.Ballal]

That's pretty amazing!