EB The Game

[Berenike]

Has the EB team ever thought about developing their own game, kinda like the Darthmod guy did with Ultimate General? Sure would be a way to transcend hardcoded limits and possibly get paid for doing what they love. Granted it wouldn't be exactly the same as a TW game but many other developers have released games featuring real time battles and large campaign maps where armies can be move around. Wargame Red Dragon is an example.

[Berenike]

I don't know much about finance but I am guessing it could crowd be funded in the beginning to get set up and then go either 3 ways.
1. Develop a new engine completely independent
2. Pitch idea to CA and develop cooperatively a 'Historical Education' series to compliment their recent High Fantasy route, but with flexible powers regards the TW engines. A sort of niche game series for History enthusiasts like Battlefronts Combat Missions
3. Work with another game studio.

I had the idea the develop a game where real time battles could be fought based on historically accurate numbers of soldiers i.e Battle of Zama 40,00 vs 35,100 (Wikipedia) and also include a campaign map that included every city, town and village of antiquity. Satellite based Geography featuring every river, ridge, mountain valley etc. These features and more (such as reconstructed 3d settlements based on archaeological size, shape and density) could be used by Universities and Military Academies for simulated learning.

[z3n]

Its more Sega than ca. Developing an actual game engine means a large number of professional software developers who normally earn 100k or more if they're decent.

There's a project i was involved in for rtw and mtw2 being done to break hard coded limits already given permission by ca but the problem is ca put limits to have stability in their exe.

[Berenike]

Yeah, but even if the memory editing project came through we would still be limited by the max capabilities of the M2TW engine, hence as you said CA put in hard-code limits to provide stability. I'm not one to preach on Game Design, but I presume in the beginning a game would be worked on voluntarily like a passion project until a sort of prototype is made that can attract funding from a big studio that can pay for Software Developers. I bet there are lots of talented people in this community that could help build a prototype EB: The Game

[z3n]

Well on the rtw one I tested it broke those limits but that caused instability. So its quite complicated considering the project leader a software engineer had to spend a huge amount of time translating things into something he could read.

So all I'm saying is ca knew what they're doing and making a new game even on a rtw or mtw2 level is very complex. Hence Darth's game being ambitious solely in the ai part of things.

[Berenike]

Your right, off course developing a new game is very complex. But then again there are millions of games out there. So all I am saying is if there was interest and a fair number of people became involved it could work.

With regards to the project you worked on, wasn't there an idea to get a petition going that would ask CA to release a new patch that provided the features wanted? Surely that would be a quicker way of getting them?

However even if you got the memory features you still couldn't do stuff like have rivers in cities, port-cities, naval battles etc. I opened the thread to invite discussion on the topic of an EB Game because it seemed like a logical 'next step' for the EB franchise seeing as all later TW games are 'less-modable'.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Your right, off course developing a new game is very complex. But then again there are millions of games out there. So all I am saying is if there was interest and a fair number of people became involved it could work.

With regards to the project you worked on, wasn't there an idea to get a petition going that would ask CA to release a new patch that provided the features wanted? Surely that would be a quicker way of getting them?

However even if you got the memory features you still couldn't do stuff like have rivers in cities, port-cities, naval battles etc. I opened the thread to invite discussion on the topic of an EB Game because it seemed like a logical 'next step' for the EB franchise seeing as all later TW games are 'less-modable'.

What i am seeing is that the CA after releases a new title abandons all the previous projects. The possibilities for a new patch for any game of Total war except Attila and maybe Rome II is zero. Also all the members of the team of EB 2 are not professionals. We are just modders of Medieval 2 and Rome Total War. We can't for example mod Shogun 2 or Empire. About Darth and some others great Modders for example King Kong or husserlTW, they joined a gaming studio to develop games.

[Berenike]

With all due respect, a lot of your replys have been slightly negative (in a positive way though!) in the sense that its too big a project, not enough people interested, no money, time consuming etc. You know what, there probably never will be a stand alone EB game because of those practical reasons, but I was wondering if we were to weigh the cons and pros and just brainstorm, how do you think it (the game) would start about? Just speculation off course. It's true (I presume) the EB team is mainly skilled at modding the RTW and M2TW engines and because of that they could act as 'executive producers' or something if there ever was an EB - The Game (though there probably never will be)

[Trax]

The only way it could work is if CA gives them the old engine to work with much like Paradox has handed out their old engine to modding teams to make new games.

[Berenike]

The only way it could work is if CA gives them the old engine to work with much like Paradox has handed out their old engine to modding teams to make new games

Well that would be something wouldn't it! But not likely to happen in our lifetimes. I know CA has expanded to different areas such as Total War Arena and Kingdom so it would be cool but perhaps not financially lucrative to have a 'historical recreation wing'. Do you think it would be possible to make a game on a new engine? Yes it would lose some 'classic total war elements' that we love (and are here for in the first place!) but that's what I am wondering about. A loose EB idea backed by non CA or independent Software developers and probably crowd funded along with a multitude of volunteer level designers, concept artists, coders etc. I would imagine that a new game would attract a lot more people to the DEV team then the mod because there is the prospect of payment and career advancement. But making games costs a ton of money, so like everyone is saying, not practical. But then everyone said that to Alexander... I guess this our Hyphasis River

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Well that would be something wouldn't it! But not likely to happen in our lifetimes. I know CA has expanded to different areas such as Total War Arena and Kingdom so it would be cool but perhaps not financially lucrative to have a 'historical recreation wing'. Do you think it would be possible to make a game on a new engine? Yes it would lose some 'classic total war elements' that we love (and are here for in the first place!) but that's what I am wondering about. A loose EB idea backed by non CA or independent Software developers and probably crowd funded along with a multitude of volunteer level designers, concept artists, coders etc. I would imagine that a new game would attract a lot more people to the DEV team then the mod because there is the prospect of payment and career advancement. But making games costs a ton of money, so like everyone is saying, not practical. But then everyone said that to Alexander... I guess this our Hyphasis River

Well we need a "leader" for this step forward you describe and we don't. Also most of the team are doing this for hobby not for a job. The most have a job and a real life too. Along for that if only empire , napoleon or shogun 2 total war had the modding features of medieval 2 and rome total war like mapping. The modders would made miracles. Finally in order to make a game we need a company, a gaming studio etc. And also money, thousands of euro. And always is the possibility to fail all that.

[Berenike]

Well because the EB team are not full time and have 'real lives' they could act as Artistic Directors to guide and lead the project at least based on EB principles. If a community could be built around the project a company could be created, like the Lordz gaming studio. And as for money, I suppose it would be donation based at the start, at least until we could make a design document/prototype game and then hopefully attract investors. Although they might never come because as you said there is always the possibility of failure. If a project of this kind ever took off it would have to be from a place of love, passion and enjoyment. No point if it's gonna cause people to tear their hair out and destroy their personal lives.

Anyway, thank you for your suggestions guys

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Well because the EB team are not full time and have 'real lives' they could act as Artistic Directors to guide and lead the project at least based on EB principles. If a community could be built around the project a company could be created, like the Lordz gaming studio. And as for money, I suppose it would be donation based at the start, at least until we could make a design document/prototype game and then hopefully attract investors. Although they might never come because as you said there is always the possibility of failure. If a project of this kind ever took off it would have to be from a place of love, passion and enjoyment. No point if it's gonna cause people to tear their hair out and destroy their personal lives.

Anyway, thank you for your suggestions guys

Something last this EB team is not the original that made eb 1.2 or even start to develop EB 2.0. After years some abandon , some left etc. We can't have a standard team to work in a new game for 2 years for example. And then again we need a leader, a guy who one day he would tell, guys let's do our own game. And we will see about the rest.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Anyway i passed your suggestion to the rest of team. Thanks for your support.

[Berenike]

Cool man. Thanks again for the feedback, and it is an honor to support the EB team. Good luck with the new release

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

The only way I could see this happening is if either a crowdfunding campaign allowed a team to license the Rome/Medieval 2 engine from CA, or CA released the source code, since they produce new titles on the Warscape engine, now. If that happened, then the team could use the same base game engine they're familiar with, but all hardcoded limits would be open to change, as they could create a brand new exe legally. I could see CA licensing the engine for a fee plus a percentage of any profits, but that'd be up to their corporate heads to work out, if they were approached.

[Berenike]

Well it seems everyone has their ideas, their opinions and there own agendas when it comes expanding the exe for RTW/M2TW. Everyone wants different features but don't do about it. Poor Zarathos, carrying the wait of the entire community on his shoulders in the Memory Editing Project. Divided. There's no cohesion. There is no mass unity in the TW community to pitch a petition, let alone start a crowd funding campaign to get the source code or another patch, or the case where CA/Sega miraculously releases the source code (They wouldn't even if it was the apocalypse!). This is kind of a case of 'you'll eat what I put on the table or go hungry'. It's been like ten years since RTW. C'mon. Were wasting our time. The EB team is small-ish and it's arrogant to assume that they would assume the task of building a new exe because its like, so easy and they have so much time they will live forever...

Unite the community, across the board, people from all mods from RTW/M2TW and move as a collective-consciousness public force to achieve your proposals. Publicize this movement wildly and have new TW fans know how CA/Sega really behave towards their 'loyal following'. Establish an unalterable list of core wanted features. Then demand twice as much until CA offers a some kind of deal. If it doesn't include the core features then no deal cos they're non-negotiable, unconditional surrender. Then they (CA) will say "Well, we have to give them something to save face, but not so much as to counter our new release sales and popularity too much." Then a compromise will be reached between the 'colonists' and the 'mother-country'.
No Taxation without representation!

[z3n]

In regards to memory editting. Redfox was working on the RTW memory editting project. Zarathos was on the MTW2 editting project and they share info between each other. Also, I asked one of my friends (who was learning software engineering) to help him and he did for some time- but redfox got sick.

Anyway, there was also Argantinos posts on the topic along with Sinuhets who probably helped Redfox/Argantinos knowledge a bit with their own research about the exe.


edit: Just a clarification I recall one of the guys in the group I was in for the memory project mentioning that CA told them they did not have the source code for RTW anymore as it is a very old version of the TW engine and they are on a much newer one. I can kind of understand that. I think they are on version 3 of their engine. Warscape is just their graphics part of the engine. (makes sense when you think Landscape and Warscape) they have another codename for their real engine TWEngine 3 or something, I forget.

[xHolyCrusader]

mentioning that CA told them they did not have the source code for RTW anymore as it is a very old version of the TW engine and [...]

Im pretty sure they still have the source code for m2tw though, dunno how the steam update that brought m2tw to steam with overlay/mp and stuff would be possible otherwise. Giving another patch to the comunity that takes some of the limits away would cost them barely any time...
Is it maybe possible to reach CA via a petition or such?

[Berenike]

edit: Just a clarification I recall one of the guys in the group I was in for the memory project mentioning that CA told them they did not have the source code for RTW anymore as it is a very old version of the TW engine and they are on a much newer one. I can kind of understand that. I think they are on version 3 of their engine. Warscape is just their graphics part of the engine. (makes sense when you think Landscape and Warscape) they have another codename for their real engine TWEngine 3 or something, I forget.

Jeez, why am I not surprised. We are after a source code that doesn't even exist. I may as well quit now...
So would I be right in saying that if they don't have the source code then we would be asking CA for permission to reverse engineer the RTW and M2TW exe so that we can re-find the source code? and then we need CA's permission again on what aspects we can use? or they take back the source code and release a patch?

Giving another patch to the comunity that takes some of the limits away would cost them barely any time...

Yes. If what you are saying turns out to be true and they still have the M2TW source code or whatever contains hard-coded limits then this is one of the most bitter aspects of the whole soap opera. It must really get the to memory editors when they are stuck and frustrated.

Is it maybe possible to reach CA via a petition or such?

Haven't you heard, there's no 'unity' at TWC. A lot of people have asked this very same question but nothing ever happens. A big movement is needed, like a confederation of nomad tribes uniting into one faction. A petition or an ultimatum, at this stage...