Anti-Trait+NoGoingBackLevel mechanic confirmed broken in Medieval 2 Kingdoms

[Titus le Chmakus]

??? The HasAncType works, it is GeneralWithAncKilled that does not work.

[KEA]

Did you try it in EDCT?

[Withwnar]

It works for me.

[Gigantus]

The confusion here is in most cases about what is actually tested when using the HasAncType condition. It's not the ancillary NAME but the TYPE:

Ancillary accomplice
    Type Security
    Transferable  0 
    Image sex_yangman.tga
    ExcludeCultures mesoamerican
    Description accomplice_desc
    EffectsDescription accomplice_effects_desc
    Effect Subterfuge  1

Tip: you can use as many Type definitions as you want - using the same label for name and type would then effectively test if a certain ancillary is present.

[Withwnar]

FactionwideAncillaryExists doesn't work in EDCT; maybe that's the one being thought of. GeneralWithAncKilled doesn't work anywhere AFAIK.

[Tasunke]

I was thinking of using multi level traits with bad at the top (level 1) and good at the bottom (level 8) - the entry level would be level 4 (if not trait level >4 and <4 then give level4). all other triggers will add or subtract from there.

This seems like best-case scenario. Has anyone tried this (with all duality anti traits at least) in a mod yet?

[Jurand of Cracow]

This seems like best-case scenario. Has anyone tried this (with all duality anti traits at least) in a mod yet?

In my understanding I may work only if there's just one anti-trait, like Healthy - Ill. If there're more - you need to use more traits.

Furthermore, some triggers will have to be more complicated, I think, and more errors are likely to occur (when you don't take all options in consideration).

;********* HEALTH SYSTEM *********;------------------------------------------
Trait HaleAndHearty
 Characters family
 Hidden
 
 Level DeathlyUnhealthy
   Description DeathlyUnhealthy_desc
   EffectsDescription DeathlyUnhealthy_effects_desc
   Threshold 1


   Effect HitPoints -3
   Effect Fertility -1


 Level SeverelyUnhealthy
   Description SeverelyUnhealthy_desc
   EffectsDescription SeverelyUnhealthy_effects_desc
   Threshold 4


   Effect HitPoints -2


 Level Unhealthy
   Description Unhealthy_desc
   EffectsDescription Unhealthy_effects_desc
   Threshold 9


   Effect HitPoints -1


 Level NormalHealth
   Description NormalHealth_desc
   EffectsDescription NormalHealth_effects_desc
   Threshold 12


 Level Healthy
   Description Healthy_desc
   EffectsDescription Healthy_effects_desc
   Threshold 15


   Effect HitPoints 1


 Level FairlyHealthy
   Description FairlyHealthy_desc
   EffectsDescription FairlyHealthy_effects_desc
   Threshold 20


   Effect HitPoints 2


 Level BastionHealth
   Description BastionHealth_desc
   EffectsDescription BastionHealth_effects_desc
   Threshold 25


   Effect HitPoints 3
   Effect Fertility 1
   Effect TroopMorale 1

[rafmc1989]

Tasunke later I'll send you several of these dynamic traits (the ones mentioned for the agents)

And, thanks Jurand for the above example!

[Tasunke]

Thanks Leo. And by dynamic traits, do u mean traits on a Bad to Good (or) Good to Bad scale like Jurand's example?

[rafmc1989]

Reversible, both sides can pass from good traits to bad traits and viceversa, according to the threshold triggering and random percentages... I'll show...

[Jurand of Cracow]

I was thinking of using multi level traits with bad at the top (level 1) and good at the bottom (level 8) - the entry level would be level 4 (if not trait level >4 and <4 then give level4). all other triggers will add or subtract from there.

Reversible, both sides can pass from good traits to bad traits and viceversa, according to the threshold triggering and random percentages... I'll show...

I've been trying to code in this style, but I've found a problem. You need to give a neutral level for each trait to each character at the beginning of their lives. Only after this starter is given, they may be swings in the trait between the two options of the same traits (for what's now two traits). This means that each character will have each trait - even though most of them of the neutral value. In the current setting (two traits) a character simply doesn't have any (or they are of value 0) what is not shown in-game. This is not a problem for the engine, this is the problem for the player. For the hidden traits - this can go as in both cases they don't show up so the player is unaware they exist. However, the neutral values of the normal traits will be shown in-game. And this means that the in-game trait tab will be unreadable for the player: hundred(s) of traits saying "this character doesn't have this trait / has 0 value in this trait". This could be avoided if it would be possible to make some levels of the trait hidden, and some not (so the neutral value wouldn't clutter the tab, but the other values would be visible to the player)? Or is it?

(well, I may imagine some ingenious solutions to this problem, but they look somehow laborious at first glance. Eg. an additional trait for each such swinging traits that would prompt the starter level to appear and make the necessary adjustment. However, triggering such additional trait may be tricky (and require much code) for the negative values. Maybe worth doing for a few frequently used traits, but not for all. Eg. it may be useful in the EB-style if you've got very few a character-defining traits from the beginning, but not in the SS-style when you've got dozens of personality traits.

(additional argument against using it comes where you fix the problems in the existing coding (it's actually what's I'm doing). Making such big changes to the traits needs also adjustments in the starting positions... what is laborious and prone to mistakes)

-------

Another issue, not related. Can you recall me if the AntiTrait bug infests any change of the level loss (eg. the anti-trait trigger causes a trait dropping from level 2 to level 1 but the effects linger), or it affects only the lowest level (drop from 1 to 0, with simultaneous rise in antitrait from 0 to 1 - only then the effects of the first trait linger)?
(I mean here only this one type of bug, I assume that no NoGoingBack is not used in either of the traits.

-------

And even less related issue: does the NoGoingBack problem exist also in the Rome TW?

[ahuevi]

From what I tested, Antitraits work just fine when you turn off NoGoingBackLevel. I think it would be much easier if we could make the same effect NoGoingBackLevel has but through modifying existing triggers, say for example:<br><br>Drink has Sobriety as Antitrait with NoGoingBackLevel = 5 (Threshold = 16 in Vanilla). If we want the same effect NoGoingBackLevel has once a character reaches Drink level 5, all we have to do is modify Sobriety triggers so that they don't apply when he reaches that level.<br>As an example: one trigger specifies that when a character marries, he has 80% probability of gaining a point in Sobriety if he already has 2 points in Drink:<br><br>;------------------------------------------<br>Trigger family11<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WhenToTest CharacterMarries<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Condition Trait Drink &gt;= 2<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Affects Sobriety&nbsp; 1&nbsp; Chance&nbsp; 80 <br><br>;------------------------------------------<br><br>We wouldn't want that trigger to apply if our character reached the NoGoingBackLevel (Drink level 5), so we modify the trigger this way:<br><br>;------------------------------------------<br>Trigger family11<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WhenToTest CharacterMarries<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Condition Trait Drink &gt;= 2<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and Trait Drink &lt; 16<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Affects Sobriety&nbsp; 1&nbsp; Chance&nbsp; 80 <br><br>;------------------------------------------<br><br>All we have to do is modify all triggers from traits that have NoGoingBackLevel as shown in the example (I'm currently working on it for my mod).<br><br>I'm no programmer, so I could be wrong about all this... but I think it works!

[gsthoed]

EDIT: Bad testing setup had led me to wrong conclusion. Post removed; I keep only the following part as it is relevant to next post

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trait AntiTest
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Test
    Level Hexxed
        Description Hexxed_desc
        EffectsDescription Hexxed_effects_desc
        Threshold 1
    Level Hexxed 
       Description Hexxed_desc
       EffectsDescription Hexxed_effects_desc
       Threshold 2

[Withwnar]

Could you elaborate? I'm not following how the example is demonstrating your theory about NoGoingBackLevel = points not levels.

Also, your AntiTest trait's two levels are named the same thing, "Hexxed". Is that allowed? I would have thought that it would be an error.

[gsthoed]

Could you elaborate?

Well... no. I repeated some tests and the traced log reports do not seem to confirm that theory of mine. I find nothing that had not been presented in this thread about this issue, so I have edited my previous post.

Also, your AntiTest trait's two levels are named the same thing, "Hexxed". Is that allowed? I would have thought that it would be an error.

I'm using this trick sometimes for hidden traits. I have also seen that elsewhere; in SS, for example, there is a hidden Trait KingsAuthority with nine level, all with the same name. I don't remember me or anyone having any issue with this!

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm using this trick sometimes for hidden traits. I have also seen that elsewhere; in SS, for example, there is a hidden Trait KingsAuthority with nine level, all with the same name. I don't remember me or anyone having any issue with this!

Yep, I can confirm it as well as @selv can, see here.


Can you help me with this one:

Can you recall me if the AntiTrait bug infests any change of the level loss (eg. the anti-trait trigger causes a trait dropping from level 2 to level 1 but the effects linger), or it affects only the lowest level (drop from 1 to 0, with simultaneous rise in antitrait from 0 to 1 - only then the effects of the first trait linger)?
(I mean here only this one type of bug, I assume that no NoGoingBack is not used in either of the traits.

[Withwnar]

I'm using this trick sometimes for hidden traits. I have also seen that elsewhere; in SS, for example, there is a hidden Trait KingsAuthority with nine level, all with the same name. I don't remember me or anyone having any issue with this!

Interesting. So the level name's purpose is only for mapping to the VnVs file, like Description and EffectsDescription.

Can you help me with this one:

Post 4 is playing with Level and AntiTraits and it said that all worked correctly, until NoGoingBackLevel was used.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Post 4 is playing with Level and AntiTraits and it said that all worked correctly, until NoGoingBackLevel was used.

Thanks, Withwnar!

A further question: if a trait is an anti-trait for a few other traits, and it gains a point, is this point subtracted from all those other traits (if they're >0)?
What happens if one of them is equal to 0?

[Withwnar]

I don't use them so not sure. My guess would be all anti-traits lose a point and if a trait is already at zero then nothing happens to that trait because trait points can't go below zero.

EDIT: hmm ... "if a trait is an anti-trait for a few other traits, and it gains a point" I don't think anything would happen at all, would it?. The other traits would need to be anti-traits of this trait - which typically they would be. i.e. Usually trait A is an anti-trait of trait B, and B is an anti-trait of A. Not sure how it behaves if only the first of those two things were true.

[Jurand of Cracow]

In the TLK EDCT:

Trait RhetoricSkill    Characters family
    AntiTraits Ignorance, BoringSpeaker
...
;------------------------------------------
Trait StrategicSkill
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Ignorance

and

Trait Ignorance
    Characters family
    AntiTraits RhetoricSkill, StrategicSkill, TacticalSkill, MathematicsSkill, LogisticalSkill

So if points for: Ignorance = 0 , RhetoricSkill = 1, but StrategicSkill = 0 , what happens if the guy gets 1 point in Ignorance?