Repetitive Strategy for Northern Europe

[AnonMilwaukean]

I feel like each campaign where I am a Barbarian Kingdom or Norse I end up doing roughly the same thing: take Britannia, tech up, build trade jetties, push back out. I started noticing this after just my 2nd campaign as one of those groups. I mean, after you learn how the Huns are scripted to take shape in the East, you really have little incentive to head that way (Dacia/Thrace area in particular). And going East or South right away is viable but likely to extend an exposed flank into an area where some other faction will suddenly declare war as soon as you need to replenish units. So the natural course is to take the Britannic isles, especially because you can take the southern part of Britannia from the WRE and gain a diplo boost as you do it.

For kicks and giggles, sure, it's probably doable to push in any direction with the Barbarian Kingdoms and the Norse. But if the point is to minimize casualties and headaches, it seems to me like taking Britannia and teching up is the most effective way to play it. At least since the Celtic DLC Britannia is harder to take and more interesting to fight (thanks to the Celtic rosters). Which helps. But if you can clear Britannia, it's basically inevitable that you'll win so long as you play even remotely conservatively and take few risks. Britannia is just never really threatened again in my campaigns once the natives are defeated.

The one exception to all this is the Franks. The Franks can pretty much move into Gaul and do just as well, using the channel to guard one flank and the Rhine to help block the rear a bit.

But everyone else it just seems benefits most from going to the island-of-never-getting-attacked-from-the-continent. I almost never see armies come across the Dover straits at Pas-de-Calais (or whatever it was actually called back then). I do see them, sure, but it's just very rare. So, I've taken to even uprooting some of those Northern European factions, starting a migration, and taking WRE's Britannic settlements immediately, in some cases even making alliances with the Celts from all the diplo boosts I get fighting the WRE.

In the end, I guess my thought on this is that the Huns need to have a little bit of randomization when played by the AI. Not that I want them to necessarily go into the Sassanids and attack them every other game. But just a little more randomness as to where they come through and set up in Europe. Maybe sometimes they aim for the historical point in Dacia/Thrace or whatever, then other times aim to go more northerly, and other times head more southerly into Greece or Italia. But right now, they basically shut-down Dacia/Thrace for you unless you like making things unnecessarily hard (which can be fun from time to time, admittedly).

With the other factions (WRE, ERE, Great Migrators, Eastern, Nomads) there's a bit more openness to what makes sense to do. I've seen really clever WRE strategies where someone abandons half the map and heads to Carthage, or Iberia. I've seen ERE strategies that vary as well. And the Huns can be played in a number of ways. But as for the Barb Kingdoms and the Norse, I've seen fewer clever strategies and have found from my own experience that the campaigns with those factions often go sort of the same way for me.

Thoughts? I hardly consider myself a great player, but I'd noticed my tendencies with the Barbs and Norse and kind of thought it was strange. In R2, I know I did the same thing on occasion, but I feel like in R2 I far less frequently turtled in Britain since usually the Iceni were established by the time I could get there. And in R2, once the Iceni were established, it was actually an uphill struggle because the AI Iceni just camped and built stacks it seemed while waiting for someone to attack.

[Ozymandias Maximus]

I saw the Geats withing 10 turns abandon their capitol and horde to Africa. Also in most of my games as Norse, Celts or Barbs, the Celt factions end up dominating Europe after I take Britannia. It seems to happen almost every time. Granted, that was the AI. As a player, I feel stuck in the same conundrum in the north. Invade Britannia, build up armies and then expand.

[pratolano]

Well, yep.. That's basically my strategy as well when starting up as any of the northern barbarians aside from the Franks.

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

It just means that in this rare case CA struck the balance just right, the historical solution is also the most logical solution in the game

[AnonMilwaukean]

It just means that in this rare case CA struck the balance just right, the historical solution is also the most logical solution in the game

I sort of agree and sort of don't.

Obviously, it is historical for the Norse and Angles, Saxons, etc. to take to Britain to escape the Huns and to expand. So, from that perspective, it's actually not too bad. Really, kudos for it being historical in this department if that's what one prioritizes.

But on the other hand, it reduces the replay-ability severely. And these games aren't just about recreating history verbatim. Like I said before, just a bit more randomization of where the Huns come through would work wonders. The Huns are the only faction that is basically guaranteed to end up in a specific area of the map in the mid-game (though it looks like some migrators are scripted in the very first turns for a bit). I don't mind the scripting, but just wish that the Huns would occasionally prioritize a different map area in Europe. It's about plausibility and fun, not strict 'historical accuracy'. I'd rather have a chance to push east sometimes and gamble that maybe the Huns would go to Greece, or go down the east Mediterranean coast for a bit when Attila first comes out. Right now, to me it's just too predictable an equation.

Like I said, it's a good thing if you really want the campaign to be rather close to actual history... just, that's not my top priority. In a game where the WRE can relocate to Carthage and abandon half the empire in a matter of a few years, I just find it unnecessary to have the Huns be so predictable. Let them roam sometimes, have a random chance that they sometimes go elsewhere, like further north in Europe (actually worse for the Barbs and Norse), further south (to Greece and down Italia), or even down the east Med. Sea coast. As it is, I almost never see them go down into Italia... generally, they ignore whoever takes Rome itself, even if the taker is at war with them.

I just want a curve ball on occasion... and doesn't have to be a huge curve, but just something. Even if they go into the ERE deeper, they could always be scripted to eventually come back up after taking X number of settlements. Right now, though, it's just clockwork for them to be in Dacia/Thrace. The window of time is not that large most games, though I had one campaign (out of a number now) where at least Attila took longer to become king than usual and it took considerably longer for them to be at the usual spot.

[Linke]

It's a myth that Germanic peoplea invaded Rome in flight from the Huns

[wulfgar610]

It's a myth that Germanic peoplea invaded Rome in flight from the Huns

Actually I disagree there. History is resplendent with examples of "Barbarians" who would uproot themselves when they found an aggressive neighbor too tough or dangerous. And then make tracks for a neighborhood softer than they themselves.

[xjlxking]

I agree with OP. But then again, every campaign in this game feels a bit more scripted
as ERE, you have to fight of Sassanid. You can stall it but eventually they fight your.
The Sassanid will also eventually have to expand, and east is normally the route everyone takes.
WRE has to fight off all the barbarians.
..etc

Actually I disagree there. History is resplendent with examples of "Barbarians" who would uproot themselves when they found an aggressive neighbor too tough or dangerous. And then make tracks for a neighborhood softer than they themselves.

Meh, the migration of the tribes wasn't just because of the Huns. The same way that fall of WRE is credited to the Barbarians. WRE would have fell to anyone, or anything. WRE even by 4th century was desolated in Gaul. Famine, Disease, constant raiding made it nearly baron.

[Bramborough]

It's a myth that Germanic peoplea invaded Rome in flight from the Huns

I don't think it's a "myth", maybe closer to a "legend", in that it's an oversimplified and misleading explanation....but with a kernel of truth. I do think that pressure from the east (from groups perhaps including, but not soley, the Huns) was a contributing factor. But probably even more important was Roman military weakness on the frontiers, and the simple fact that imperial lands, even the border provinces, were simply richer and more attractive than the barbarians' own. There was at least as much (probably more) ambition and opportunism involved as there was fear. Just my opinion.

[wulfgar610]

I don't think it's a "myth", maybe closer to a "legend", in that it's an oversimplified and misleading explanation....but with a kernel of truth. I do think that pressure from the east (from groups perhaps including, but not soley, the Huns) was a contributing factor. But probably even more important was Roman military weakness on the frontiers, and the simple fact that imperial lands, even the border provinces, were simply richer and more attractive than the barbarians' own. There was at least as much (probably more) ambition and opportunism involved as there was fear. Just my opinion.

Actual I don't believe the majority would uproot themselves from the homeland while it would remain viable even with the prospect of better lands. But maintaining agriculture was a difficult and marginal process, subject to bad years. The last thing they needed was aggressive raiders and tribute seekers turning the marginal into the impossible. If the future held your hard work going nowhere or even possible extinction then these Barbarians had a social collectivity to uproot and take to the road. In other cases it was a surplus population that was looking to move. It is clear the majority of barbarians crossing the frontier were desperadoes with a will driven by necessity.

[Bramborough]

Yep, my Saxon and Geat campaigns wound up being quite similar. As Geats, I did toy with the idea of expanding eastward, along the Baltic and then down into modern Poland/Belarus/Russia. The main reason I didn't was because the folks over there (Rugii, Lugii, Venedians, I think) were friendly and trade-agreeable, while those to the west were already unfriendly/hostile. Seemed rather silly to go war on my buddies while leaving enemies alone. That said, I think it's a feasible alternative (although probably still not as advantageous as Britain/Belgica/Frisia).

[gregnaar]

As the Ostrogoths i tried to expand to the east, but yeah, Huns are constantly crossing my regions, and raiding all the time. But they are kind of doing that just to show their love, as they like me now. This was in turn~70.
Mods used:
Dei combat overhaul by Kam
recolonise made cheaper by magnar
double sized garrisons by magnar
halved fertility degradation (climat change mod by magnar)
revised diplomatic effects by augustung
authentic faction names by augustung

[Bramborough]

That faction name mod looks pretty cool.

[PeonKing]

Yeah, but it's really interesting to see how much you can affect the game based on who you are playing. For example, I played the WRE, and kept all of their lands stable. That resulted in Eastern Europe getting destroyed, with the Geats/Langobards holding the north, as they couldn't take Britannia because I knocked out the Celtic factions out early and scared them with a few roving stacks on the islands. I didn't help the ERE in their war against the Sassanids, so basically the world is empty besides myself, the Sassanids, a very weak ERE, the northern barbs, and roving hordes of Huns. Conversely, playing as the ERE, I took Dacia early and turned it into a military province, I attack any Nomadic hordes I encounter and have been steamrolling over the Sassanids and their cronies. I basically left the WRE to die, so now I have a very lively and diverse Europe since I've stopped the hordes from being able to tear it to shreds. So it's a bunch of rebellious Roman factions and barbarians fighting eachother, but they seem less prone to raze things since there aren't a bunch of nomadic hordes raiding. And when I played as the Huns, basically everything is 1 region factions besides the Sassanids, who I went to war with and have been destroying me with their hundreds of aggressive stacks between them and their puppets.

When I played the Vikings, I did basically what you did, and had similiar results. I plan on trying them again, but this time cutting down to the Med and trying to hold the nomads at bay while making peace with the West.

[DeliCiousTZM]

Go play Multiplayer campaign or accept that finding the total war experiences is the incentive.

[AnonMilwaukean]

Go play Multiplayer campaign or accept that finding the total war experiences is the incentive.

I think I get what you're saying, but multiplayer campaigns are not perfectly stable, unless they've improved it dramatically in that department recently. There's a reason why so many people complain about the AI in this series, and it's largely because the multiplayer side has had numerous technical issues for ages, from multiplayer campaigns to even just skirmishes/battles.

Really, the reason people bash the AI so heavily is because multiplayer rarely works that well (Shogun 2's MP battles worked for me, but the MP campaigns not-so-much). Same issue the Civilization series has: multiplayer has enough issues that most people would rather try and play singleplayer.

Like I said, I do agree with you to an extent. But this isn't a game with exceptionally functional MP... imagine if TW games had near-flawless MP: the complaints about the CAI and BAI would go down three-fold.

[The Dude]

I partially disagree. As Geats I've conquered far into Eastern Europe, and I find that the mean reason it's such a hassle is not so much the Huns (make them your friends and there's no issue), but the fact that everything is so bloody far apart. It makes things very difficult to manage.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Yeah. Playing as the Sassanids, I conquered Scythia. I swear you need three armies just to protect that one province.