a legit buff for WRE in your opinion ?

[tonmai2541]

Playing as the WRE right now, I can't help but think that it should get some buff, or improvement to make its mid-late game(after surviving the initial barbarian onslaught) exciting. I have already think of some but fearing that the buffs maybe too massive, I ask for your opinion.

Here are its problems and solutions from my view.
1.massive church upkeep -- reduce it to something close to the water work line's upkeep.
2.neglectible Christianity bonus -- increase it to be like 3% maybe ? If you want to go pagan, there should be and event or lower the threshold for converting.
3.some rather important units like elite balistarii just cost wayyyyy too much compare to its early counter part (which is too unarmored to be effective) -- add a unit upkeep modifier in the military tech so that it add up to around 20% in the end(each tier has -5% maybe ?).
4.massive corruption -- can be save by tying the politics in(yes, I do know there is mod that do that) ,also same idea for civ tech.

When I implement these, my income went up from around 4000 to 10000 around the year 420 when my border stretch from Belgica to Raetia to Tripolitana.

So what do you think ? Do you think these are a bit too much ? What would be your preferred fix for the WRE ?

[xjlxking]

Well as a whole

-Religion needs to be fixed. There is nothing to gain out of it, most people just demolish it. After establishing dominance and stability, they focus on religion SOLEMNLY because of the requirement needed for Divine and Cultural victory.
-Immigration kind of kicks in too early and i feel like there is little you can do to actually combat it
-Corruption is also in need of a fix 80% lol

[GussieFinkNottle]

After establishing dominance and stability, they focus on religion SOLEMNLY because of the requirements needed for Divine and Cultural victory

I think you mean SOLELY.
If you want to combat immigration, raise taxes to high and the problem solves itself. I've managed to get my WRE starting issues fully under control, it's about 407 AD and all the barbarian factions are gone, Sassanids are the current target. Income 35,000. Once you get over the initial hump, WRE can be very rewarding, rich and militarily strong.

I don't think you need mods to 'fix' any of the features, some should be patch-tweaked, but they more or less work.

[PeonKing]

I think you mean SOLELY.
If you want to combat immigration, raise taxes to high and the problem solves itself. I've managed to get my WRE starting issues fully under control, it's about 407 AD and all the barbarian factions are gone, Sassanids are the current target. Income 35,000. Once you get over the initial hump, WRE can be very rewarding, rich and militarily strong.

Same here. I actually destroyed the churches, which gave me a pretty solid income boost and eventually went Pagan. It was frustrating how long it took to finally convert to paganism, but besides that I really enjoyed my WRE campaign, there was a good portion of the time where I was living on the knifes edge, where diplomacy was actually important, which is very rare to feel mid-game in a total war game.

[GussieFinkNottle]

Same here. I actually destroyed the churches, which gave me a pretty solid income boost and eventually went Pagan. It was frustrating how long it took to finally convert to paganism, but besides that I really enjoyed my WRE campaign, there was a good portion of the time where I was living on the knifes edge, where diplomacy was actually important, which is very rare to feel mid-game in a total war game.

Yeah I discovered that if you become unreliable, your trade partners can cut you off, which is devastating if it's the other Roman Empire (7-10k/turn). I found this out to my cost, and it ensured I navigated diplomacy more carefully thereafter. I'm behaving myself for a steadfast reputation.

[gregnaar]

1.massive church upkeep
2.neglectible Christianity bonus
3.some rather important units like elite balistarii just cost wayyyyy too much compare to its early counter part (which is too unarmored to be effective)
4.massive corruption -- can be save by tying the politics in(yes, I do know there is mod that do that) ,also same idea for civ tech.

1."massive church upkeep" You dont really have to build churches because you get decent amount of omnosis from your "useless" christianity bonus.
-The upkeep is not that bad: it is lower with corruption too.
-Even if you want to have them you can build in the frontier provinces, where you will have low income and low food because of the garrisons. And if you dont tax the province, buildings still provide every benefit, just wont consume food, and wont give you tax, but it is often better not to tax them. The problem will be -9 immigration PO but you can easily deal with that, as you dont have to worry about food in the given province. But you can have libraries with + research, free churches, free sanitation, millitary building without eating up your food, but still giving garrison and train properly. So in my opinion it is really a good idea to dedicate some provinces to this role. You might loose 500-1000 income, but you wont get rebellions, you wont run out of food, you can build lvl 4 buildings and have to nautralize only the po and squalor penalties.
-In your money making provinces for god's sake please dont build a church, bring a priest. It will give far more happiness and relgious influence, and costs only 1200 dinari ONCE.
2. "neglectible Christianity bonus" It is good.
-You can easily maintain you religion in your provinces and quickly convert your neighbors, and that will make diplomacy easier.
-Even if they attack, if you capture their territory you will have to spend a lot less to convert their settlement because your own religion seems to reduce the costs.
3. "some rather important units like elite balistarii just cost wayyyyy too much compare to its early counter part (which is too unarmored to be effective)" Cant argue with that, but if you can manage economy, you dont have to worry about money too much.
You can reduce upkeep:
-Every non-roman unit in your army will reduce upkeep with 2%.
-Generals, cunning attribute will lower upkeep. Also traits households etc can lower more. (But i think some of them are bugged)
-Agents can lower upkeep via household and such.
-More importantly if you fill in every available position in politics you will get a ton of bonuses from it. (-10% upkeep, cheaper recruitment, buildings etc.) But you have to manage politics carefully.
4. Corruption
It cripples great empires, quite realistic in my opinion.
You can easily reduce it:
-Spy ability: Investigate corruption: -20% corruption and you can unlock it on level 2 for them as WRE.
-Governor: -10 % corruption
But you can get more money out of your provinces by raising taxes, or traits/households that increase tax etc.
The trick is: you cant make much money in all your provinces, you will have to pick some provinces and make them your economical centers. (for example i tend to fully upgrade Magna Graetia, 3 trading ports are just seriuos cash even with 50% corruption.) Galleicia, Aquitania, Egypt, Thracia, they are all wonderful for making money. Governor+spy+priest you can get 7-10000 denari or more from each province, even if your default corruption is above 80%.
And you will have to dedicate some proinces to produce enough food to support your empire.
-If you loose territories that are kind of useless, you will get less corruption, and that means more money from useful provinces. Currently not a too tempting option, as the AI just nukes everything and dont actually takes settlements. However: emergent roman factions are your best friend: Let them succesfully rebel and than crush their settlement and subjugate them, or just makes peace with them. They will build up settlements that you dont have money to upgrade, they will crush rebellions, fight on your side, trade with you (1 settlement nations provide more money with trade than the whole province with 80% corruption.) Ofc, they sometimes refuse to join your wars, but you should have some legions patrolling your empire, to enforce the will of the emperor!
You can do the same with migrating hordes too. Give them a region, and the rest is obvious.

So i dont think WRE needs buffs, they just need to fix the AI and the razing. I would gladly loose 70% of WRE starting settlements, but i wont let them raze half europe.

[Anna_Gein]

I am convinced the heart of the problem is the base income. I don't know if it changed with patchs but it used to be something like 3 000 for Romans factions and 4 000 for every other ones. Yes you hear me right. So because of it the WRE neighbours concentrate far more wealth than the WRE.

I made a small mod that disable all base income. Even if it does not change starting armies it help to make the situation more believable. A WRE player still has a lot of trouble to face. the campaign remains extremely difficult as you still face internal and external pressions without pause. But you are no more insanly obliterate from every side within 50 turns.

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

Maybe the WRE should get some tributaries and lose a couple of regions of direct control

[crowe15]

Maybe the WRE should get some tributaries and lose a couple of regions of direct control

Corruption needs to be fixed.


A WRE recovery, conquering the entire map reuniting the empire instead of the East, and it's rife with so much obvious corruption yet the empire(you) can't fix it?