Are enemy General's Bodyguards OP?

[tr.igger]

I'm not sure if I should post this in bug reports or not because im not quite sure if what I've been experiencing the whole game is a bug.
For my latest example
Three Silver Chevroned Bodyguard of mine, 43 men strong. It attacks a Kievan Rus bodyguard 30 strong. Swiftly, the bodyguard absolutely obliterates mine, bringing mine down to 14 by the time they're at 24. (I've never sent my General Bodyguard in to fight a seemingly weaker General Bodyguard and won). So I send my Bodyguard running and once it has made distance from the bodyguard I have my 57 strong Strzelcy and two full Pechenegs fire upon the enemy General Bodyguard, after quite a while (Bodyguards are near invincible for some reason) it gets cut down to 4 men. So I send my bodyguard back in, 14 v 4.... and the 4 killed them all.
In another fight before that, I was taking a town and only a general bodyguard remained. I sent in 4 Merchant Cavalry, 1 Mercenary Frankish Knights, all were killed with only a few casualities to the bodyguard. Then, I sent in my masses of spear units and VERY slowly and with large casualties they killed them all besides the general (the general is nearly always last to die). I literally watch as the General sits on his horse, jerking all over as spear after spear after spear hits him. Without exaggeration, he is hit over a 100 times, possibly 200 as I was watching in 6x before he is killed. This has not been with just one factions Bodyguard's but all of them and I constantly dread having to fight them because it's so unrealistic.
I'm playing as poland vh/vh by the way, with MNC on as well as SS.
I just wanted to ask if General Bodyguards are intended to be this way on SS or if something is definitely wrong with my game.
Thanks

[teks]

They are intended to be very hard to kill, becuse they are elite soldiers typically wearing the heaviest armor available. Normal weapons wont do diddly to these guys. Different factions have different bodyguards with different strengths and weaknesses. Kieven Rus bodyguards use maces, so they will own in a slug fest against other bodyguard units and heavy horses.
Merchant cavalry have a low attack, frankish knights are meh. Both of them will get owned by maces, while unable to deliver it. The frankish knights may do ok as long as they keep hammering them on the charge, but they are pretty outclassed. The biggest differences between frankish knights and keiv body guards is:
No horse armor, no maces, less combat skill.

Spears. spears will do nothing but suck and die against most bodyguards. They will suck and die to most heavy cavalry period. They are just poorly trained guys with long sticks, and are only a counter to horses because they are cot efficient and more resistant to the charge.
Pechenegs have weak arrows against heavy armor. They aren't going to accomplish much. In a longer time frame, they will wear the bodyguard down.

Hold them with spears, then pummel them with javelins, charge at them from the rear, surround them. Use AP weapons, crossbows, flank attacks. You need to account for the heavy armor they are wearing and bring in things that counter heavy armor. Even attrition. Their heavy armor will tire them out, and once they are worn out even spears can start taking them down.

[teks]

Looking at the polish, Assuming your playing an early campaign, the best way to take out enemy bodyguard is with crossbow militia, spears, and woodsman. After 1300 you get many options for killing heavy cavalry like halberds.
Let the spears take the charge, pummel them with crossbows, and let the woodsmen flank, or even just charge in.
The spears are the cheap throwaway unit to resist the charge, they may deliver a few casualties on their own. The woodsmen are an AP unit that can start killling the bodyguard off in direct melee, and the crossbows are strong enough to pierce their armor. Once the bodyguard is engaged a nice flank with your cvalry or woodsmen will devastate them.
Once th bodyguard is dead, the battle is pretty much won anyway as the enemy will likely rout.

[tr.igger]

Thanks for the reply Teks - it was really useful and I'll pay heed to your words as I continue on! I guess I've just played too many games wear spears were always the horse killers.
Is there anywhere I can go to find out the difference between all faction bodyguards, like which ones use maces and such?
One question though as this just happened then. 30 Polish General Bodyguard v 20 Hungarian General Bodyguard - flat ground - no other units interfering, but still the 30 lost. Is this simply due to the VH difficulty I'm playing pushing things in their favor? Do Hungarians also use maces?
Thanks again

[tr.igger]

Aha! I worked out what it was. The Hungarian Bodyguard I fought had 32 armour whilst mine had 20 AND had a greater charge bonus. Why was theirs so so much better than mine?

[teks]

Finding secondary stats of units is a pain. I looked it up in the units data file searching for everything russian till I saw their bodyguard. I'll post a few for reference. I answer your question below. I just thought this was interesting.

Kiev rus: EE_Bodyguard
Primary attack: 8, 8 charge
Secondary Attack: sword 10 attack
Defense: 9, 8, 3 (20)
Upgrades to Late EE_bodyguard which uses a 6 attack mace rather then a sword, has 23 total defense, and uses a western lance (5 attack 14 charge).

European Bodyguard: NE_bodyguard, SE_Bodyguard
Primary attack: 5, 14 charge
Secondary Attack: sword 10 attack
Defense: 8, 9, 3 (20)
Upgrades to 32 defense, 15 charge in late period.

Lithuanian bodyguard is pretty unique. it has weak stats and a crappy charge, but it scares foot soldiers.

Middle East: ME_Bodyguard
Primary attack: 8, 7 charge
Secondary Attack: sword 9 attack
Defense: 12, 10, 2 (24)
Upgrades to a lance with 6 attack and 12 charge, uses a mace with 6 attack, and gets 27 total defense.

Now my personal favorite and number one most frusterating bodyguard espesially in the early game...
Byzantine bodyguard: Greek_Bodyguard
Primary attack: 4, 12 charge
Secondary Attack: sword 8 attack
Defense: 18, 7, 5 (30!)
I don't think it upgrades at all. With 30 defense it don't need to.

Note that maces aren't straight up superior to swords. Swords have a higher attack value and, more importantly, swing faster. Sword horses will mow through light to medium infantry and horses at a much faster pace then maces. Maces are better only against the heaviest armor, especially heavy horses.

From looking at the unit file, hungary and poland both use the same bodyguard with 20 total defense. As time goes on this bodyguard upgrades into late bodyguard with much better armor and a stronger charge. Early on the west is less advanced then the east, especially when it comes to armor, but a lot of eastern factions don't have a powerful charge. In your case it looks like they upgraded their bodyguard, while you were still using the early bodyguard. I'm not sure why, maybe you need to take them to a city/castle to upgrade them. Maybe yours comes a little later. Either way, the late bodyguard completely outclasses the early one.

Once you get your late bodyguard you can even fight the rus and the byzantine bodyguard directly, just keep charging them and avoid prolonged fights.

[teks]

Now for kicks lets look at your cheap woodsman unit.
He has 5 attack thats armor-piercing along with 3 charge.
He gets +1 attack versus horses because his weapon is two-handed.

Lets say he engaged in a skirmish with some late hungarian bodyguard head on, so no charge, and no flank.
woodsman' attack = 6
Late bodyguard defense= 21 armor, 9 defense skill, 2 shield. armor is halved versus woodsmen so his total defense is 21
He should get some kills.

If he flanks...
woodsman's attack= 6, 9 if charging.
Late bodyguards defense= 10 armor (ap), 0 defense skill (doesn't count in flank), 0 shield (doesn't count in flank).
Their charge will have 9 attack versus 10 defense. Pretty devestating. They will continue fighting at 6 attack versus 10 defense. Them bodyguards will drop like flies. This is especially devastating when you consider the bodyguard is a late game unit of high priority while woodsmen are replaceable garbage happily thrown away.

Your halberds work the same way except they get +2 versus horses, have 8 attack, and 6 charge. Halberders slaughter heavy horses.

Crossbows get 10 attack and ignore defense skill. 10 attack versus 23 defense is ok. They will get some decent kills.

Spears, I'll look at sergeant spearmen.
They get 2 attack, plus 2 against horses, no AP. Thats only 4 attack against 32 defense! They are gonna die. At least if they flank its 4 attack versus 21 defense, but it still isn't looking good.
Scouatoi spears are some of the best, they get 6 attack total versus horses, which will still involve a ton of dead spears in a prolonged fight with few kills.
Spears counter horses because they can get at least some kills, and their numbers and defense will absorb the charge. Once the charge is absorbed, and the horses are engaged other infantry can move in and finish the job. Halberders and other similar units can kill cavalry in a direct fight, but will be demolished in a cavalry charge. So using both units to counter horses is important.

[LusitanPlayer]

all i have to say is that in the early era, if you are fighting against the bizzies, you are gonna have a bad time with theirs...

on the comment above:
i used simmilar tactics against bodyguards... but first i'd use all my light cavalry to break their formations and make them chase, while i'd have spearman on a hill waiting for them, only to go around and crush with croatian axeman... i did that until i had the whole balkans and turkey.

[Reed019]

I remember a couple of years back fighting a Middle Eastern faction king, who was the only one left in his bodyguard unit, that was nearly invincible. I had him completely surrounded with 2000 units, as he was the only enemy left, and it literally took almost 5 minutes for him to die (and he was getting hit constantly)... Must've had every single trait that increases hp or something (he had to be good considering he had 10 command).

[tr.igger]

I'm glad to see that this wasn't a bug but simply part of the game. I guess I'll just have to embrace it as part of the challenge thanks for the replies guys, especially teks, all that info is seriously helpful and i can't imagine how many fights I might win just because of your information

[LusitanPlayer]

Well if you want my advice, the fastest way for me to drop the byzantine king was use my cavalry to lure him away, and tire him while shooting on him (parthian tatics OP)
when he was so tired that he was as slow as an infantry, i'd engage from all sides with two handed.

[teks]

Thats a good strat. Im gonna put it to more use in my own campaign. I plan on bolstering the number of light and medium cavalry i use anyway.

[LusitanPlayer]

notice that i usually do it with missile cavalry or skirmishers, and i leave my infantry on top of a hill far away from the battle line, so when they try to reach them they are tired and my men are fresh. i rarelly engage myself with them, i lure the enemy towards them.

[teks]

Picking the right terrain helps too. I've been decimating egypt's mamluk stacks with minimal losses by planting a bunch of mangonels, archers, and javelins on a hill. I picked out a chokepoint next to a slope, and keep taking stack after stack with glee.

[LusitanPlayer]

i have never gone that far. at turn 60 i had the whole balkans, carpathians and turkey. i took it all from the bizzies, but hell they are hard to fight. all i could use were my missile cavalry and well placed army.

[teks]

freaking gryms slows me up. My king and heir are just south of poland, so all I can do about egypt is defend turn after turn. Also, I have to release all prisoners. Good Times.