Pikes in R2 vs Attila

[AnonMilwaukean]

So, I have maybe 150 hours in, and I already have tried out a number of sides in the campaign, and I have messed around with just about every side in custom battle. And I have to say: pikes just don't factor into most of my tactics, anymore.

I mean, they now seem to take damage from ranged fire at an insane rate (mostly because I think most pike units now have not just a poor missile block chance, but also because most also now have sort of lousy armor).


Now, in Rome 2 pikes were stupidly overpowered, especially because they slaughtered anything that fought them head-on and the AI never quite seemed to realize this... the AI would suicide into pikes way, way too often, and ranged units were less effective against most pikes in R2. Hence, not just cavalry, but everything in R2 was vulnerable to pikes. Only in multiplayer were pikes counterable through smarter tactics; in single-player, pikes roflstomped just about anything but ranged units. So, it was obvious that pikes needed a change.

But, thus far in Attila, pikes feel like wasted money. They are only marginally better at fighting cavalry compared to other units: spears in spear wall, shock cavalry, and even some of the DLC melee infantry all have bonuses to attacking cavalry. Plus, pike damage isn't too high, their armor-piercing damage is nothing to brag about, and as said above, for various reasons they seem more vulnerable to ranged units. But the icing on the cake is that most pike units also have rather poor attack/defense stats. Poor enough to the point that they don't even do that well when attacked frontally.

Maybe it's just me, but what is the purpose of pikes in Attila? Fighting elephants? I mean, elephants are now a one-faction unit (Sassanids, unless some of the unplayable Eastern factions also have them). Obviously pikes are still a decent choice to hold a chokepoint against enemy units, but it just doesn't seem like they outperform most other units in this regard.

Which is the whole issue with pikes in Attila: what is their niche? In R2, they over-performed and were too good of an all-around unit in many cases. But now? Now I just don't see much to separate them from spear infantry: both do well against cavalry, both are good holding units, etc.


What am I missing, folks? Because right now, the one major difference seems to be that pikes can be spread out wider while in pike formation than spear units can in spear wall. And that's not exactly a big deal (unless you want to cheese the game with spaghetti lines).

Thoughts?

[RGA]

Pikes are better against shock infantry. Axemen will eat your spearmen alive.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Then you look on all the pikemen there are in the game, there aren't that great compared to rome 2.
Most of them is just some levy men, and not trained pikemen like in rome 2.

there are only two good pikemen units, and they are still debatable if they are even worth it.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Yeah, there's not much point to them. Everything they do, spearmen do about as well, except the spearmen are better when flanked or when peppered with arrows, both of which are common scenarios, especially when your greatest threat is the Huns.
For game balance purposes, I'd have them handily defeat spearmen head on (given enough time), and fight melee infantry to standstill (emphasis on standstill, it should take forever), with their primary limitations staying missile weapons, flanking attempts, and situations they can't use their pikes like when assaulting a wall or fighting in a forest.

Though historically speaking, we shouldn't even have pike units in this era...

[KLAssurbanipal]

It's funny that people compare R2 pikes to Attila... In Attila are only few types of units, but they shouldn't be. In Rome 2 there are various phalangites so it is a sense.

[EmperorBatman999]

I used pikes rather well in my Ostrogoth campaign to fight the Huns. The AI still suicides units into my pike wall, and they can hold down infantry for some time.

My strategy was to use a two-phase battle plan. My pikes are the first wave and they are able to slow down and chew up most of the enemy. Once my pikes got too hurt, I would disengage them and send in my second line of swordsmen like Gothic Warband or the Thracians. Usually that is enough to finish off the enemy.

Otherwise I used a hammer-and-anvil method, sending swords and axes around the flanks of the enemy pinned down by the pikes.

So in short, in Attila you must use pikemen in tandem with other units for them to be really effective.

[Aenima]

Pretty sure some Saxon pikes (?) were able to defeat a unit of cohors when they attacked a settlement of mine - they probably had other units in support, though.

I think it's the case of the stats being underwhelming but when they actually engage in melee combat when in formation they get an "invisible boost," so to speak, and they perform much better.