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  1. #1

    Default Indiana Signs SB101

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/religious...es-law-indiana

    Bucking intense criticism from citizens, celebrities, tech leaders, and convention customers, Indiana’s Republican Gov. Mike Pence quietly signed a controversial religious freedom bill into law on Thursday. Opponents warn the measure will sanction discrimination against LGBT people, and cost the Hoosier State millions in tourism revenue.

    “Today I signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, because I support the freedom of religion for every Hoosier of every faith,” the governor said in a statement released shortly after he signed Senate Bill 101, otherwise known as the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA.) “The Constitution of the United States and the Indiana Constitution both provide strong recognition of the freedom of religion but today, many people of faith feel their religious liberty is under attack by government action.”

    The new law will prohibit a governmental entity from substantially burdening a person’s religious beliefs, unless that entity can prove it’s relying on the least restrictive means possible to further a compelling governmental interest. It’s modeled off of the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), which gained notoriety in the Supreme Court’s controversial Hobby Lobby ruling last year. That decision found that closely-held corporations wouldn’t have to comply with the Affordable Care Act’s contraception mandate if the owners had a sincerely-held religious objection to birth control.

    Supporters say RFRA is designed to protect people’s religious beliefs from unnecessary government intrusion. But opponents argue the measure serves as a license to discriminate, particularly against LGBT people, on religious grounds.

    In the past week, a wide array of critics put pressure on Pence to veto the measure, including actor and director George Takei, the CEO of Salesforce, and the organizers of Gen Con – billed on its website as “the original, longest-running, best-attended, gaming convention in the world.” Adrian Swartout, CEO and owner of Gen Con LLC, said in a letter addressed to Pence that if Indiana’s RFRA became law, he would consider moving the convention to a different state in future years – a move that’s expected to cost Indiana more than $50 million annually.

    But Pence pushed back against the accusation that the religious freedom measure would open the door to discrimination.

    “This bill is not about discrimination, and if I thought it legalized discrimination in any way in Indiana, I would have vetoed it,” he said. “In fact, it does not even apply to disputes between private parties unless government action is involved. For more than twenty years, the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act has never undermined our nation’s anti-discrimination laws, and it will not in Indiana.”

    Pence isn’t the first religious freedom supporter to argue that RFRA doesn’t apply to disputes between private parties – like, for example, a religious landlord who wants to evict his gay tenant. Michigan’s former Republican House speaker told msnbc the same thing when he was trying to rush a religious freedom measure through the legislature during last year’s lame duck session. But LGBT advocates point out that anti-discrimination laws rely on government agencies to take action in disputes between private parties, and it’s that action that would be impeded by RFRA.

    “One of the ways that anti-discrimination laws work is that you have government agencies going after the people accused of discrimination. In that case, it would be a ‘government action,’” Brooke Tucker, staff attorney at the ACLU of Michigan, told msnbc last December. “For the landlord who violates the Fair Housing Act, a lot of times it’s the government who goes after him. The government takes a lot of steps to protect people from discrimination by others, and that’s something that could be severely impacted by this bill.”

    The Michigan RFRA ended up dying. But once the 2015 session began, Republican lawmakers began introducing a wave of religious freedom measures across the country. According to the ACLU, 22 state RFRAs were introduced in 13 states this year. But Indiana’s is the first to become law.

    Gov. Pence signed the measure during a private ceremony just before 10 a.m. Thursday morning. Members of the media were not allowed to even be in the waiting area of the governor’s office, The Indianapolis Star reported.

    Read Pence’s full statement below:

    “Today I signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, because I support the freedom of religion for every Hoosier of every faith.

    “The Constitution of the United States and the Indiana Constitution both provide strong recognition of the freedom of religion but today, many people of faith feel their religious liberty is under attack by government action.

    “One need look no further than the recent litigation concerning the Affordable Care Act. A private business and our own University of Notre Dame had to file lawsuits challenging provisions that required them to offer insurance coverage in violation of their religious views.

    “Fortunately, in the 1990s Congress passed, and President Clinton signed, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act—limiting government action that would infringe upon religion to only those that did not substantially burden free exercise of religion absent a compelling state interest and in the least restrictive means.

    “Last year the Supreme Court of the United States upheld religious liberty in the Hobby Lobby case based on the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but that act does not apply to individual states or local government action. At present, nineteen states—including our neighbors in Illinois and Kentucky—have adopted Religious Freedom Restoration statutes. And in eleven additional states, the courts have interpreted their constitutions to provide a heightened standard for reviewing government action.

    “In order to ensure that religious liberty is fully protected under Indiana law, this year our General Assembly joined those 30 states and the federal government to enshrine these principles in Indiana law, and I fully support that action.

    “This bill is not about discrimination, and if I thought it legalized discrimination in any way in Indiana, I would have vetoed it. In fact, it does not even apply to disputes between private parties unless government action is involved. For more than twenty years, the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act has never undermined our nation’s anti-discrimination laws, and it will not in Indiana.

    “Indiana is rightly celebrated for the hospitality, generosity, tolerance, and values of our people, and that will never change. Faith and religion are important values to millions of Hoosiers and with the passage of this legislation, we ensure that Indiana will continue to be a place where we respect freedom of religion and make certain that government action will always be subject to the highest level of scrutiny that respects the religious beliefs of every Hoosier of every faith.”



    So, interestingly enough Angie's List is cancelling construction of a new HQ. GenCon is considering pulling out when their current contract is up. City of Seattle, WA and the entire state of Connecticut have banned official travel to Indiana. Even some Christian groups are pulling out and are having their conventions elsewhere. The results are...interesting.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Yah another major company is no longer sending any personnel there for work either. I can't remember the company. But yeah this is pretty shameful. Hopefully it gets up to SCOTUS and they get rid of the crap.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Yah another major company is no longer sending any personnel there for work either. I can't remember the company. But yeah this is pretty shameful. Hopefully it gets up to SCOTUS and they get rid of the crap.
    Very unlikely in my opinion.

    Private discrimination is essentially Constitutional, even if government discrimination is not (Equal protection/due process clauses). That is settled at this point; nothing in the Constitution forces a private person to hire/serve/rent to black/female/Minnesotan/gay etc. people. So if you want to make private discrimination illegal, you have to do it through statutes (like the Civil Rights Acts). The Constitution does not get you there.

    At this point many statutes do prevent private discrimination in a lot of situations (though noticeably absent in the Federal Civil Rights/Fair Labor Acts are any protections for the Gays). But since it is only statutory power, the legislature is free to carve away at anti-discrimination policies/laws. The Federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act does this, and was used (correctly IMHO) to decide the Hobby Lobby case.

    This state law simply mirrors the Federal one. So there are basically no grounds to deem it unconstitutional.
    Last edited by Sphere; March 31, 2015 at 11:52 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Ironic that Jan Brewer backs off...
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    The text of the law, if anybody wants to read it directly before both legs of the media pick this up and distort it beyond recognition.

    As I digest this...

    Well Citizens United folks, it's right there in sec 7...this state law defines a "person" in part as:

    Quote Originally Posted by SB101
    A partnership, a limited liability company, a corporation, a company, a firm, a society, a joint-stock company, an unincorporated association, or another entity that: (A) may sue and be sued; and (B) exercises practices that are compelled or limited by a system of religious belief held by: (i) an individual; or (ii) the individuals; who have control and substantial ownership of the entity, regardless of whether the entity is organized and operated for profit or nonprofit purposes.
    lawl...the final section of the law....

    Quote Originally Posted by SB101
    This chapter is not intended to, and shall not be construed or interpreted to, create a claim or private cause of action against any private employer by any applicant, employee, or former employee.
    ...but no such protection in return.

    Can anybody see a use case for this other than a Hobby Lobby-type scenario? I've been reaching for one all night, and can't come up with any likely candidates.



    What I do find interesting, though, is the strength and breadth of reaction...it's very unusual for government entities to react to another government entities moves this blatantly and this publicly. A down-the-road lawsuit to challenge the specific measure, sure, but a public statement essentially boycotting the government in question is almost unprecedented.
    Last edited by Symphony; March 31, 2015 at 08:29 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    As if this law is gonna do anything. Homosexuality is banned in India.No one follows that rule XD.
    Last edited by Aikanár; April 02, 2015 at 04:09 PM. Reason: cannot be reasonably discussed

  7. #7

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Symphony
    Can anybody see a use case for this other than a Hobby Lobby-type scenario?
    well yes, although this is just another state expansion of an already existing Religious Freedom Restoration Act to reflect the recent supreme court Hobby Lobby decision. the media and opponents have unintentionally (or intentionally?) targeted the underlying Religious Freedom Restoration Act itself.

    there are still some differences between the Indiana bill and the RFRA, as The Atlantic puts it:

    There’s a factual dispute about the new Indiana law. It is called a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, passed in 1993.* Thus a number of its defenders have claimed it is really the same law. Here, for example, is the Weekly Standard’s John McCormack: “Is there any difference between Indiana's law and the federal law? Nothing significant.” I am not sure what McCormack was thinking; but even my old employer, The Washington Post, seems to believe that if a law has a similar title as another law, they must be identical. “Indiana is actually soon to be just one of 20 states with a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA,” the Post’s Hunter Schwarz wrote, linking to this mapcreated by the National Conference of State Legislatures.

    The problem with this statement is that, well, it’s false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.


    The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.
    neither religious liberty nor antidiscrimination clauses in consumer protection laws should take preference over the other but there are a couple of things i want to ask here in regards to the RFRA in the context of the common business (not gonna delve into Hobby Lobby or whether companies should be compelled to pay for post-coital birth control)

    is owning a store or corporation, and the act of selling goods part of one's religion, part of the way one practices their religion?

    does your business being forced to sell goods/services you otherwise provide normally to any other type of consumer violate the way you practice your religion or your beliefs?

    should your religion give your business the legal protection to discriminate against certain types of consumers who are otherwise not breaking any laws or showing disrespect?
    Last edited by snuggans; March 31, 2015 at 11:44 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    there are still some differences between the Indiana bill and the RFRA, as The Atlantic puts it:



    neither religious liberty nor antidiscrimination clauses in consumer protection laws should take preference over the other but there are a couple of things i want to ask here in regards to the RFRA in the context of the common business (not gonna delve into Hobby Lobby or whether companies should be compelled to pay for post-coital birth control)

    is owning a store or corporation, and the act of selling goods part of one's religion, part of the way one practices their religion?

    does your business being forced to sell goods/services you otherwise provide normally to any other type of consumer violate the way you practice your religion or your beliefs?

    should your religion give your business the legal protection to discriminate against certain types of consumers who are otherwise not breaking any laws or showing disrespect?
    There are some other key parts of that article that really add to it that you left out....I've underlined them:

    What Makes Indiana's Religious-Freedom Law Different?


    The new statute's defenders claim it simply mirrors existing federal rules, but it contains two provisions that put new obstacles in the path of equality.


    No one, I think, would ever have denied that Maurice Bessinger was a man of faith.


    And he wasn’t particularly a “still, small voice” man either; he wanted everybody in earshot to know that slavery had been God’s will, that desegregation was Satan’s work, and the federal government was the Antichrist. God wanted only whites to eat at Bessinger’s six Piggie Park barbecue joints; so His servant Maurice took that fight all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, which in 1968 decided that his religious freedom argument was “patently frivolous.”


    Until the day he died, however, Bessinger insisted that he and God were right. His last fight was to preserve the Confederate flag as a symbol of South Carolina. “I want to be known as a hard-working, Christian man that loves God and wants to further (God’s) work throughout the world as I have been doing throughout the last 25 years,” he told his hometown newspaper in 2000.


    Growing up in the pre-civil-rights South, I knew a lot of folks like Maurice Bessinger. I didn’t like them much, but I didn’t doubt their sincerity. Why wouldn’t they believe racism was God’s will? We white Southerners heard that message on weekends from the pulpit, on school days from our segregated schools, and every day from our governments. When Richard and Mildred Loving left Virginia to be married, a state trial judge convicted them of violating the Racial Integrity Act. That judge wrote that “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents … The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”


    That’s a good background against which to measure the uproar about the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was signed into law by Governor Mike Pence last week. I don’t question the religious sincerity of anyone involved in drafting and passing this law. But sincere and faithful people, when they feel the imprimatur of both the law and the Lord, can do very ugly things.


    There’s a factual dispute about the new Indiana law. It is called a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, passed in 1993.* Thus a number of its defenders have claimed it is really the same law. Here, for example, is the Weekly Standard’s John McCormack: “Is there any difference between Indiana's law and the federal law? Nothing significant.” I am not sure what McCormack was thinking; but even my old employer, The Washington Post, seems to believe that if a law has a similar title as another law, they must be identical. “Indiana is actually soon to be just one of 20 states with a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA,” the Post’s Hunter Schwarz wrote, linking to this map created by the National Conference of State Legislatures.


    [u]The problem with this statement is that, well, it’s false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.


    The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.”[/i] (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.


    What these words mean is, first, that the Indiana statute explicitly recognizes that a for-profit corporation has “free exercise” rights matching those of individuals or churches. A lot of legal thinkers thought that idea was outlandish until last year’s decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, in which the Court’s five conservatives interpreted the federal RFRA to give some corporate employers a religious veto over their employees’ statutory right to contraceptive coverage.


    Second, the Indiana statute explicitly makes a business’s “free exercise” right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person, rather than simply against actions brought by government. Why does this matter? Well, there’s a lot of evidence that the new wave of “religious freedom” legislation was impelled, at least in part, by a panic over a New Mexico state-court decision, Elane Photography v. Willock. In that case, a same-sex couple sued a professional photography studio that refused to photograph the couple’s wedding. New Mexico law bars discrimination in “public accommodations” on the basis of sexual orientation. The studio said that New Mexico’s RFRA nonetheless barred the suit; but the state’s Supreme Court held that the RFRA did not apply “because the government is not a party.”


    Remarkably enough, soon after, language found its way into the Indiana statute to make sure that no Indiana court could ever make a similar decision. Democrats also offered the Republican legislative majority a chance to amend the new act to say that it did not permit businesses to discriminate; they voted that amendment down.


    So, let’s review the evidence: by the Weekly Standard’s definition, there’s “nothing significant” about this law that differs from the federal one, and other state ones—except that it has been carefully written to make clear that 1) businesses can use it against 2) civil-rights suits brought by individuals.



    Of all the state “religious freedom” laws I have read, this new statute hints most strongly that it is there to be used as a means of excluding gays and same-sex couples from accessing employment, housing, and public accommodations on the same terms as other people. True, there is no actual language that says, All businesses wishing to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation, please check this “religious objection” box. But, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.”


    So—is the fuss over the Indiana law overblown?


    No.


    The statute shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality; and it has been publicly sold with deceptive claims that it is “nothing new.”


    Being required to serve those we dislike is a painful price to pay for the privilege of running a business; but the pain exclusion inflicts on its victims, and on society, are far worse than the discomfort the faithful may suffer at having to open their businesses to all.


    As the story of Maurice Bessinger shows us, even dressed in liturgical garments, hateful discrimination is still a pig.
    Because holy crap the timing it all happened in...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    This state law simply mirrors the Federal one. So there are basically no grounds to deem it unconstitutional.
    Glaringly wrong. See underlined sections above.
    Last edited by Gaidin; March 31, 2015 at 03:45 PM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Glaringly wrong. See underlined sections above.
    I must be missing something. There is no such civil right of action in Indiana (nor Federally) to be taken away in the first place. In New Mexico it has been given through a statute. But Indiana is not New Mexico.

    In any event, I don't see how that would affect the Constitutionally of the statute. Private discrimination is Constitutional, having language in a state law which reinforces that idea would have to be constitutional.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    I must be missing something. There is no such civil right of action in Indiana (nor Federally) to be taken away in the first place. In New Mexico it has been given through a statute. But Indiana is not New Mexico.

    In any event, I don't see how that would affect the Constitutionally of the statute. Private discrimination is Constitutional, having language in a state law which reinforces that idea would have to be constitutional.
    The article is comparing it to every other state and pointing out the differences and how those differences were put in when that case happened. Or did you like, not read?
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    There is an obvious difference in language, but not in effect.

    It would make a difference in New Mexico which has an anti-discrimination law. But that language doesn't mean much in Indiana which does not.

    Perhaps it is an attempt to get this private right of action language into the general crafting of a State RFRA so that other states might copy-paste it into theirs. That would undermine existing anti-discrimination laws in the civil context for certain states.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    There is an obvious difference in language, but not in effect.
    ********. When every other state law but SC can be taken to be government only but these are explicitly not government only there is no way in hell you can take that line with me and claim honesty sir.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    ********. When every other state law but SC can be taken to be government only but these are explicitly not government only there is no way in hell you can take that line with me and claim honesty sir.
    What changed in Indiana in terms of civil law when this bill was passed?

    Before this bill a private business in Indiana could fire someone for being gay. After this bill the same is true.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    What changed in Indiana in terms of civil law when this bill was passed?

    Before this bill a private business in Indiana could fire someone for being gay. After this bill the same is true.
    You think in such limited scope. Other RFRA laws can't be used when service is refused to a gay couple like say, making them a simple wedding cake,because the government isn't a party. In Indiana it can be. Was modified as such after New Mexico's case.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    What changed in Indiana in terms of civil law when this bill was passed?

    Before this bill a private business in Indiana could fire someone for being gay. After this bill the same is true.
    HEY SPHERE! WHAT ABOUT NOW!

    A family-owned pizza parlor is causing a media stir after reportedly becoming the first business to publicly vow to reject gay weddings in the wake of Indiana's controversial Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

    The owners of Memories Pizza in Walkerton said theirs is a "Christian establishment" and that they agree with Indiana Gov. Mike Pence, who has come under fire after signing the bill, which allows business owners to cite religious beliefs as a defense when sued by a private party, ABC 57 reported.


    “That lifestyle is something they choose. I choose to be heterosexual," Kevin O'Connor told the news station. "They choose to be homosexual. Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?”


    O'Connor's daughter Crystal said she didn't think that the bill was "targeting gays," adding, "It's supposed to help people that have a religious belief."


    In a separate interview with The Daily Beast, O'Connor clarified that although he doesn't "have a problem with gay people," he does not condone same-sex marriage. Although he wouldn't cater to a same-sex wedding, he wouldn't turn anyone away from the shop itself.


    “I mean, we don’t believe in murder. I also don’t believe in abortion,” he added.


    Indiana's law has been slammed by political figures and celebrities alike. Stephen King, George Takei and Miley Cyrus are just a few of the bold-faced names to have condemned the legislation thus far.


    Meanwhile, Pence has since called for an amendment to clarify that the legislation does not allow businesses to deny service to lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender people.
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  16. #16
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Why do the three men pictured hate the gays so much?

    Micah Clark looks like the Bucho from Desperado




  17. #17
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Not surprise my state finally did it...
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    Seems to be a lot of bureacratic effort just to troll a few gay people.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    This seems apretty awful abuse of the concept of individual freedoms and the protection it enjoys to reduce the freedoms of other people because you don't like them.

    At the very least such a thing is a social issue because it is equivalent to "I dislike blacks so I don't serve them here or no Jews allowed" even though the immediate ramifications might not be or seem as severe and that analogy seem hysteric. In essence it forces gay people to hide again and being removed from public in society is a big thing in terms of tolerance.



    Overall I'm rather worried how I found today in other comment sections of media section how this kind of intolerance is defended on the grounds of the homosexuals being the intolerant guys by not respecting religion by not accepting to be unwelcomed! WHAAAA... (that's the point in the morning where after reading the morning news my brain tries to kill itself and I lose a good chunk of hope for society)
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  20. #20
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Indiana Signs SB101

    It's not right to discriminate people based on sexual orientation but on the other hand the US is a market economy, everybody is free to sell their services only to people they want to sell them to. People have no moral or legal right to criticize someone for picking his clientele. I don't see people in an uproar because Gap or Fubu don't make clothes for the elderly or that Louis Vuitton does not make pouches for men.

    If he does not want to sell wedding services to gays that's his choice and right. Eventually somebody will come along who will deliver to gays, make a bigger profit than this, expand faster and as result drive him out of the market.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; April 02, 2015 at 07:10 AM.
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