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Thread: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

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  1. #1
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    I`ve been fighting a fair few land battles against several barbarian factions and now the Sassanids and have a relatively good feel of how the AI works in them.

    I must say that the land battle AI is very good. You can tell something is right when you`ve had several battles winning and losing and don`t actually feel annoyed at the AI for doing something stupid. I play with flags off and all that guff off, Realism mode on. This means seeing an enemy General is a little harder, but not impossible. I`ve always played like this and like it. Most silly issues I erased with mods, however, some like the siege mechanic, can`t be fixed with mods and I have to live with it.

    The good:

    1. I like how it will wait for reinforcements to come and join up rather than attacking you piecemeal. I once saw it attempt this with ships and a land army, but I intercepted it before it could finish. This sometimes forces Player to decide if he should attack straight away before he`s joined up or wait. Sometimes waiting can be a mistake.
    2. It tends to keep its forces together, although it isn`t afraid to turn parts of it to cover flanks.
    3. It uses its cavalry very well, often trying to hit your flanks or rear areas. If it has a lot of cavalry and you not much, it can be quite a threat.
    4. Cavalry seems quite good at avoiding things it should, like spears. Although, if you`re lucky it`ll run over caltrops.
    5. It tends to keep its General away from most fights unless really needed. This can leave it prone to a flanking cavalry attack though.
    6. It will often know to reinforce threatened areas in a battle quite well.
    7. The limited line of sight appears to affect the AI too as I`ll see it fast change its position once I come over a hill from a different direction. Makes scouts really useful.
    8. Sitting on a hill actually works, although I don`t think archers have a longer range. AI knows to hill sit too.
    9. Only had one battle across rivers, but the AI seems to know to use the alternate crossing if it is less guarded.


    Battles details:
    I like zooming into battles and here, the depth of animation is very nice. I like to go along the lines like a passing General and look at the men. On max details, it is impressive as the movement, minor interactions do make them look quite alive, even to the point of blinking. The minor speech is quite good, except for some notable exceptions, but I do grin when I hear someone say, "Is this a staring contest?"
    Some of the speech is very context sensitive and changes quite correctly with what is happening.

    I also like how your General actually looks like the guy on the campaign map and is recognisable. After the battle your men can be exhausted and they show this too. I like it, adds that Human element.

    Unfortunately, actual battles still suffer from men slipping through eachother sometimes, especially through horses and when they go into the (now rare thankfully) long choreography. But battles look a little better `mass`wise than Rome 2 at least. They do `try` and keep their spacing. It looks really bad when they smunch up against a gate though.

    Sieges:

    While I have my issues with CA on sieges not being as good as they could be due to CA`s stubborness not to be authentic, the rest of it is also pretty good. I still haven`t had a full on siege with the AI attacking yet (except in one case where it failed), so will still need more time on it. however, the one siege where reinforcement AI of my Ally went straight for the gate instead of using siege equipment or the gaps in the walls is an issue that needs fixing. And the battle should end once all siege weapons used, if there is no breach, CA. Gates are also way too weak.

    Anyway, the good:

    1. The attacking AI does strike from several routes at you, forcing you to try and cover every possible approach. I often try to barricade areas and put most men where the AI is likely to funnel.

    2. It`s quite good at reinforcing certain weak lines.

    3. At one point the AI broke through my lines and was almost at the centre with only a few of my men left fighting desperately. I had some friendly reinforcements from outside heading for the besieged city. I was pleased to note that the AI actually had some spare spearmen blocking the entrance into the city opposite my oncoming relievers, therby holding off any rescuing of my desperate men inside. Nice touch.

    4. The citizenry walking about is quite nice. I did have time to see them running into a small house on the onset of a battle. It does add a feeling that you are protecting the people as well as yourself, which is always a good reason to fight.

    5. The basic artillery I`ve seen is not too bad. I turned tracers off and it looks pretty ok. Ammo is very low though, but I prefer less than too much.

    6. Oh yes, and the cities are very detailed and realistic looking. They look like proper cities.

    7. I really like the battle and siege adviser in battles. He reminds me of the MTW2 speaker.

    That`s about it.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Who are you and what have you done with the real Humble Warrior?

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Horus View Post
    Who are you and what have you done with the real Humble Warrior?
    He's been duplicated, the invasion is on!

    Proculus: Divine Caesar, PLEASE! What have I done? Why am I here?
    Caligula: Treason!
    Proculus: Treason? I have always been loyal to you!
    Caligula: [laughs insanely] That IS your treason! You're an honest man, Proculus, which means a bad Roman! Therefore, you are a traitor! Logical, hmm? Ha, ha, ha!

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    I agree, AI cav is now very aggressive on flanking. But that's about it for me. The AI is still very weak. I win each and every battle I fight with few casualties and it's becoming old really fast. I hate the stupid infantry formation that the AI uses instead of a single straight line (although on some rare occasions it actually does form a line). It provides so much opportunity for flanking them even if I don't have superior numbers. And the moment you start outflanking the AI, the battle is over.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    When i read this im almost tempted to buy but i wait a few more patches for the best experience.

    But nice read Humble.
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  6. #6
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Pee_Alot View Post
    When i read this im almost tempted to buy but i wait a few more patches for the best experience.
    That`s always the wisest option.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Pee_Alot View Post
    When i read this im almost tempted to buy but i wait a few more patches for the best experience.

    But nice read Humble.
    It's been working since release. After the R2 desaster, no less was to be expected.

    Honestly, I do not know what they could fix in future patches. The game was ready on release. The few imbalances that have already gotten flattened out (Tagmata pre-patch cav, too strong flaming arrows pre-patch) were the last, really important points.

    If you want to buy Attila, I see no reason why you couldn't have done that a month ago already. It doesn't need additional patches.. siege mechanics are fine too btw, and the AI knows how to attack cities. It even enters on multiple flanks at the same time.

  8. #8
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    I found, when I played Attila, that the AI general was easy to spot and kill. He was alone, often dozens of virtual meters behind his troops. If the AI lacked substantial cavalry, he was a dead man standing.

  9. #9
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huberto View Post
    I found, when I played Attila, that the AI general was easy to spot and kill. He was alone, often dozens of virtual meters behind his troops. If the AI lacked substantial cavalry, he was a dead man standing.
    Yea, it`s not perfect.

    Had a very good battle where it came right down to the wire against the Sassanids. I thought the retreat-return, retreat-return thing would be bad, but it is done quite well. The fact that the adviser tells you when this happens and a little icon pops up so you can zoom to which part of your army is very useful in thick fights.

    Saphir was an enemy General who was giving me a LOT of trouble, having defeated 3 of my armies. In this last battle, I had my Faction leader take him on. The battle went back and forth, down a hill then on an open plain. Our armies were whittled down to about 400 men each, then my General died to my horror. Some of my men started to run away, yet some of my stronger units kept fighting. Then Saphir General died. Finally it was down to my last men of around 140 (I forget their name) versus about 70 his. There was nothing more I could exceptt watch the battle. So i zoomed right down and watched the two sides slug it out on `shaken` for about 5 minutes. I could`ve cheered when the Sassanids finally broke.

    Been a long time since I felt that original Total war feeling- A long time.

  10. #10
    Garensterz's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huberto View Post
    I found, when I played Attila, that the AI general was easy to spot and kill. He was alone, often dozens of virtual meters behind his troops. If the AI lacked substantial cavalry, he was a dead man standing.

    From "General Suicide Charges" to this? I find the Attila version an Improvement.



  11. #11
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garensterz View Post
    From "General Suicide Charges" to this? I find the Attila version an Improvement.
    Well yes but if the whole battle outcome is comes down to killling the general then putting him a considerable distance away from support is not a improvement. I wasn't the person who decided to balance the game by making battles about killing the general.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKeogh View Post
    Unfortunately, too true. Attila's campaign AI is just downright timid when it comes to any garrisoned or strongly fortified city. In my WRE campaign on hard, I watched as 7-9 stacks of Huns just sat in the Alps looting and taking attrition hits for YEARS of game time rather than attempt to attack my garrisoned cities. These Hun stacks each had two heavy onager units, but they wouldn't even lay siege. The CAI seemed utterly confused as to where to go with these powerful armies when confronted by cities holding just one army. So, it bounced them back and forth in the Alps provinces of the Alamans. My dealings with Attila's Huns consisted mostly of assassinating their annoying agents repeated attempts to cause "dissent" in my 100 public order towns.

    The thing is that these Hun stacks can take a town. The ONE city battle I experience against the Huns involved three stacks of Huns against my garrisoned army and the town garrison plus a reinforcing army. Essentially, 2.5 stacks against 3 stacks. And I barely won! The Huns with their onagers pummeling my closely ranked troops almost took this town from me. Yet, the CAI never repeated the effort despite having 7-9 stacks just sitting around.
    Good post. You described the experience of playing perfectly. Baffling CAI behavior, broken Huns, and the annoying enemy agents you have to kill them all but iwhy oh why game within a game.
    Last edited by Huberto; March 30, 2015 at 04:01 PM.

  12. #12
    Garensterz's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    double post



  13. #13

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    On battles I agree with you Ritter, even though their approach to combat is not to everyone's taste (but it "works").
    On campaign, I would say there is a lot of AI priority left to change.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Well the campaign AI could be make better by simple using "Better Aggressive CAI for Attila" mod. Right now I am using this mod in conjunction with Imperiales Oeconomiae and Radious on Hard and I can say I am really impress.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Campaign AI could be improved (from the ERE mobbing the Mediterranean to other potato moments of leaving settlements unguarded while wandering around) and I've encountered quite a few battle bugs (units refusing to chase down routing units / pathfinding trouble in city streets/breaches/ etc) but generally the game doesn't seem to need too much patching, nothing like Rome 2 did.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Humble Warrior View Post
    Sieges:

    I still haven`t had a full on siege with the AI attacking yet (except in one case where it failed), so will still need more time on it.
    You'll probably still be waiting by next year, the CAI in this game will not besiege settlements in which you have any sort of decent army. The AI will only go for undefended settlements that it can sneak attack, effectively ignoring thousands of years' worth of epic historical sieges involving tens of thousands of troops on each side.

    Creative Assembly has either chosen to go for the less historical, less realistic and most importantly, less fun way of depicting sieges or the company just can't figure out how to get the AI to coherently invade settlements in this game (which you would have thought they'd nail before releasing a strategy game based on making or defending invasions).

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by barry12 View Post
    You'll probably still be waiting by next year, the CAI in this game will not besiege settlements in which you have any sort of decent army. The AI will only go for undefended settlements that it can sneak attack, effectively ignoring thousands of years' worth of epic historical sieges involving tens of thousands of troops on each side.

    Creative Assembly has either chosen to go for the less historical, less realistic and most importantly, less fun way of depicting sieges or the company just can't figure out how to get the AI to coherently invade settlements in this game (which you would have thought they'd nail before releasing a strategy game based on making or defending invasions).

    Unfortunately, too true. Attila's campaign AI is just downright timid when it comes to any garrisoned or strongly fortified city. In my WRE campaign on hard, I watched as 7-9 stacks of Huns just sat in the Alps looting and taking attrition hits for YEARS of game time rather than attempt to attack my garrisoned cities. These Hun stacks each had two heavy onager units, but they wouldn't even lay siege. The CAI seemed utterly confused as to where to go with these powerful armies when confronted by cities holding just one army. So, it bounced them back and forth in the Alps provinces of the Alamans. My dealings with Attila's Huns consisted mostly of assassinating their annoying agents repeated attempts to cause "dissent" in my 100 public order towns.

    The thing is that these Hun stacks can take a town. The ONE city battle I experience against the Huns involved three stacks of Huns against my garrisoned army and the town garrison plus a reinforcing army. Essentially, 2.5 stacks against 3 stacks. And I barely won! The Huns with their onagers pummeling my closely ranked troops almost took this town from me. Yet, the CAI never repeated the effort despite having 7-9 stacks just sitting around.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Battle AI is maybe a slight bit above R2:

    While everyone still focuses on AI sieges, AI open settlement battles are actually worse than R2: the AI often rushes at me for no reason despite being the defender in open settlement battles. Honestly, it used to be that you had to have artillery to force the AI to leave the protection of the town, but now missile superiority alone seems to cause them to rush at me... which makes little sense. Worse, though, when I play as Huns, the AI tries to send its infantry out to chase down my horse archers, which is basically suicide for those troops and serves to allow me to not have to get in range of the town's arrow towers (which are actually a nasty threat to cavalry units if at all guarded by the AI).

    AI field battles are probably better than in R2. AI seems to have a bit better understanding of how to re-arrange itself to protect its skirmishers from cavalry, and it also tends to use unit formations in sensible ways (loose formation when under heavy skirmisher fire, shield-wall when my infantry approach, etc.). But it still has a few comical issues... one of which is that it never withdraws. Sometimes I can butcher enemy AI skirmishers simply by running them out of ammo with my cannon-fodder and then watching them charge me regardless of what units I have left. But these silly issues were also present in earlier games, and the whole never-withdrawing issue is one that most games in the series have, so all-in-all field battles are a bit improved.

    AI offensive sieges are maybe a little better. TW:Attila seems to have tried to fix the battle AI for offensive sieges indirectly, through campaign mechanics (siege escalation or whatever that causes walls to come apart over the length of a siege). But in the battle element itself, it doesn't seem that improved, and some carry-over issues from R2 still exist.

    I play naval battles so rarely that I can't speak to that (usually auto-resolve).

    Again, Attila is improved over R2 for battle AI, but probably not by a ton, which is okay since R2's battle AI was obviously not superb but was still reasonable... R2's problem was more the campaign AI and features, which Attila improved greatly on.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Humble Warrior View Post
    7. I really like the battle and siege adviser in battles. He reminds me of the MTW2 speaker.
    I thought he was the English dread general

  20. #20
    Marvzilla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Positive aspects of Attila... Battles.

    How is mass, in not only spacing but also cavalry charges, how they impact ?

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