Air crash - With ultra political spin

[Denny Crane!]

Recently an air pilot crashed a plane that killed over 150 people. He did this as an apparent suicide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32098578

Now I will list a series of discussion points that can be debated, they will also highlight where it can be politically relevant, you know in case it wasn't already blindingly obvious.

- This crash occurred because of the policies introduced since 9/11 but as ever Europeans take the good leave the bad. Sealed cockpit. In USA there must be 2 people in the cockpit at all times.

- Mental health screenings, and the understanding of mental health in the public sphere. We assume depression, we don't know. But even if we do we assume we could just disbar people, we assume an awful lot but we really don't know. Turns out that lots of people, particularly pilots suffer depression but go on to have normal lives.


- discrepancies in payouts mean USA victims wil receive considerbaly more, average EU claimants wil only recieve just under a million euros. It seems lives and values are divisible but even so it still means the crash is costing Lufthansa milions of pounds.

- You can be issued a sicknote and ignore it. Clearly dangerous if you are a pilot. What if you are a doctor? What if you work in a food factory and decide to pour in poison?

And if really that isn't enough of a political start by all means I hope I get a contact.

Edit: Title slightly changed, commenting on moderation is off-topic- outside the designated areas. - Aikanár

[snuggans]

- This crash occurred because of the policies introduced since 9/11

several crashes of this sort of nature occurred before 9/11 even when there were no upgraded doors or locking mechanisms, there have been tussles in the cockpit between pilots and still planes have gone down anyway. did the locking mechanism help facilitate the crash? sure, but to say that the reinforced door caused this is silly. this reinforced door is obviously here to stay and there will be failsafes developed to deal with this sort of nature and when hijackers do manage to somehow make it into the cockpit.

[Denny Crane!]

several crashes of this sort of nature occurred before 9/11 even when there were no upgraded doors or locking mechanisms, there have been tussles in the cockpit between pilots and still planes have gone down anyway. did the locking mechanism help facilitate the crash? sure, but to say that the reinforced door caused this is silly. this reinforced door is obviously here to stay and there will be failsafes developed to deal with this sort of nature and when hijackers do manage to somehow make it into the cockpit.

Reinforced doors plus american style safety measures of 2 people in cockpit at all times I think makes this argument null and void, yes?

[SPECTREtm]

Recently an air pilot crashed a plane that killed over 150 people. He did this as an apparent suicide.

Rather mass-murder. He could easily had killed himself in Düsseldorf but enstead he opted to end the lives of hundreds as well. It's beyond disgusting.

when hijackers do manage to somehow make it into the cockpit.

Have the pilots push a panic button that instantly transfers flight controls to ground authorities with no easy overrides perhaps?.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Put all the neccessary things that a pilot might need without the pilots ever needing to leave the cockpit area, have them pee in a portable toilet if that's what it takes!

[Gaidin]

- Mental health screenings, and the understanding of mental health in the public sphere. We assume depression, we don't know. But even if we do we assume we could just disbar people, we assume an awful lot but we really don't know. Turns out that lots of people, particularly pilots suffer depression but go on to have normal lives.

It's actually honestly a really bad assumption. There are levels of depression. There are types of depression that can be treated with meds. Depression isn't binary. People see an event like this and they assume an aviation organization will just disbar the pilots when they're diagnosed. Not really something that will come down from them. It's probably something that would only stand as a policy if it comes down as backed up by the medical industry because it's a type of mental issue that they can't handle via other methods. Methods fail, or its a type of mental issue that methods can't help with, then you disbar.

And that's assuming it's medical records that are available by policy to the organization in the first place. In most countries that's a very big assumption.

[Denny Crane!]

It's actually honestly a really bad assumption. There are levels of depression. There are types of depression that can be treated with meds. Depression isn't binary. People see an event like this and they assume an aviation organization will just disbar the pilots when they're diagnosed. Not really something that will come down from them. It's probably something that would only stand as a policy if it comes down as backed up by the medical industry because it's a type of mental issue that they can't handle via other methods. Methods fail, or its a type of mental issue that methods can't help with, then you disbar.

And that's assuming it's medical records that are available by policy to the organization in the first place. In most countries that's a very big assumption.

I agree completely. Now I may be wrong but listening to news reports (anecdotal) that the hospital that treated him would not confirm that it was. This was just the day after maybe things have moved on. But as you say a simple diagnosis is not simple at all.

Country by country legislation introduces another nightmare and as you say other methods on a country by country basis changes a persons status regarding any specific condition. It turns out tons of pilots have depression, and are fine. Some have anxiety, is bipolar the same thing as depression? Can it be different always the same or sometimes both? Sounds like basic stuff, sure a psychiatrist would tear their 'hair out but every country will answer differently (mainly because the science behind it has no method and they are frauds lol).

[Mangalore]

I agree completely. Now I may be wrong but listening to news reports (anecdotal) that the hospital that treated him would not confirm that it was. This was just the day after maybe things have moved on. But as you say a simple diagnosis is not simple at all.

...

Current stories in German media are about a serious psychosomatic or neurological illness that impaired his vision. Any depression etc. would have been a side effect of that.

Overall there is the question about the medical checks the airline do and whether they should be able to get a comprehensive picture of their pilots (aka doctors need to send them their reports). Currently that falls under privacy laws. As is things could have been easily prevented if the airline or anyone would realize that he is in serious distress due to a medical condition.

There is this airline code to not fly when one doesn't feel up to it but to a certain extent the question is why none independant verifies if a pilot is still up for it.

[Gaidin]

Current stories in German media are about a serious psychosomatic or neurological illness that impaired his vision. Any depression etc. would have been a side effect of that.

Overall there is the question about the medical checks the airline do and whether they should be able to get a comprehensive picture of their pilots (aka doctors need to send them their reports). Currently that falls under privacy laws. As is things could have been easily prevented if the airline or anyone would realize that he is in serious distress due to a medical condition.

There is this airline code to not fly when one doesn't feel up to it but to a certain extent the question is why none independant verifies if a pilot is still up for it.

Would there be a difference of when the Administration orders the checkup as part of standard procedure and when the pilot gets one himself(whatever kind of checkup it might be)? If the Admin orders it, they might have access, but personal records not so much?

[Mangalore]

Would there be a difference of when the Administration orders the checkup as part of standard procedure and when the pilot gets one himself(whatever kind of checkup it might be)? If the Admin orders it, they might have access, but personal records not so much?

Currently they seem entirely separate aka whatever the airline doctors do, private doctors treating the patient fall under usual confidential clauses so in this case the pilot did not inform the airline about his treatment and the doctors treating him could not and did not refer his medical treatment to the airline. And I'm not sure how regular or deep the airline check ups really are. In essence I think if the private doctor needs to report to either the airline doctors or a neutral office that the pilot is getting treatment you wouldn't get such a fragmentation of medical records. This infringes on the pilot's privacy but I don't think it's that unusual for jobs with responsibility over so many lives. The German Luftwaffe has regular psych evals of their pilots and in actuality this corresponds to the pilot's creed to not fly if feeling unwell. They probably won't like such oversight but the issue here is that a pilot did hide some medical condition, possibly didn't get any psychological help because of that, the airline couldn't make any security decisions and he went postal.

The simple fix would have been he getting put off duty as soon as the private doctors diagnosed him and give him counsel then. Maybe there would have been something to be done for everyone involved. This way he seemed to withdraw himself into his own lies although he probably understood he will be losing his job and never got any help and did not have the personality to seek any.

[trance]

Anyway, I'll continue on the same line as in the last thread - any changes in policy must be thoroughly investigated - making changes in a highly optimized environment like the flight industry is risky. You risk ending up with unforeseen consequences and high costs without any guarantees that the issue is resolved.

[Gaidin]

Also, thinking about it, disbar is a horrible term. That's like saying they'll never be allowed to fly again, even when they get better. Grounding is better.

[Denny Crane!]

Also, thinking about it, disbar is a horrible term. That's like saying they'll never be allowed to fly again, even when they get better. Grounding is better.

Doesn't disbar refer to a licence wouldn't that make it appropriate? Not hugely familar with the term, off the cuff I guess it refers to the bar but then than would make it an English idiosyncrasy surely.

[Gaidin]

Doesn't disbar refer to a licence wouldn't that make it appropriate? Not hugely familar with the term, off the cuff I guess it refers to the bar but then than would make it an English idiosyncrasy surely.

Could be. Over here it refers to careers like law and typically means yea you can't practice law here. Ever again. As opposed to...lesser things first. Surely same concept? Removing their license as opposed to grounding them until they're better?

[Condottiere 40K]

67
Waivers tend to be meant for these situations, and for medical conditions, specific to those that would impact the safe handling of aircraft, not that you have herpes.76

[Gaidin]

67
Waivers tend to be meant for these situations, and for medical conditions, specific to those that would impact the safe handling of aircraft, not that you have herpes.76

Administrations don't hand out waivers unless they know they need to. I know this because I didn't get handed a form for epilepsy by the DMV until I was told I needed one by my doctor. You don't get hunted down by these Administrations. They're not super omni-aware. The patient has to go to them and tell them. The record gets updated, they get handed a form, and then they get told their record will get updated again when they bring back a form as such signed by the doctor.

[Denny Crane!]

Administrations don't hand out waivers unless they know they need to. I know this because I didn't get handed a form for epilepsy by the DMV until I was told I needed one by my doctor. You don't get hunted down by these Administrations. They're not super omni-aware. The patient has to go to them and tell them. The record gets updated, they get handed a form, and then they get told their record will get updated again when they bring back a form as such signed by the doctor.

Airline staff are supposed to have medical checks etc though right?

But more than anything I think the safeguards the American airlines operate is the solution as trying to hope we'll get it right with all the checks just isn't good enough.

What on earth goes through someones head, to make them so sick that they want to kill others with themselves.

[Gaidin]

Airline staff are supposed to have medical checks etc though right?

But more than anything I think the safeguards the American airlines operate is the solution as trying to hope we'll get it right with all the checks just isn't good enough.

One only safeguards so much before things get unreasonable is the awkward thing to remember. The question is how much of a responsibility do you want to put on doctors to report results of any annual checkup, bypassing the pilots, and how much will they let you.

[Denny Crane!]

Well as long as we are going to have sealed cabins the idea of always having two people in is eminently sensible.

Sick notes for serious mental health issues I think auto reporting for people responsible for hundreds of lives is sensible. Or a staff doctor with access to medical records

[Gaidin]

Well as long as we are going to have sealed cabins the idea of always having two people in is eminently sensible.

Sick notes for serious mental health issues I think auto reporting for people responsible for hundreds of lives is sensible. Or a staff doctor with access to medical records

I'm not really talking about the door. The door is easy to handle. That's purely physical and handled with extra physical presence. Medical is different. You start asking doctors to start playing Big Brother in a fashion that coordinates policy the world over there might be issues. While yes, some countries might be ready for sending a grounded status to the administration others may only still be willing to hand the final report to the pilot.