The Snipe Ability, Oh The Snipe Ability. CA plz.

[Garensterz]

So I came across a player who spammed me archers that appears to have sniping abilities in multiplayer. Seriously, this kind of ability is one poorly thought out, too arcadey, unrealisticly piece of crap feature that has introduced in all the list of abilities. So here's my story;

First I lay my army in a fashionably stunning formation(lol) while in deployment phase, (Imagine the map with light forrest and hills) Then I noticed my opponent's army is not visible so I moved up my entire army, and still wondering around the battle map but still can't see my enemie's army. That time I realized that my opponent use the Celtic DLC that has most of it's units can freaking do guerilla deployments! (which is another issue that I will limit on dicussing further!). Still iv'e been wondering the battle map for quite some time then suddenly the battle starts with my enemy pouring missile archers on mine. However I can't fire back on his Archers because it has those damn so called "sniping ability" thing that will be remain hidden while firing, which is overly unrealistic! What Kind of army cant see (and can't fire back!) a whole army of archers that is pouring waves and waves of arrows with just 100 meters away from them?!?! This needs change!


However now, I can much understand if those "sniping" archers will only limit to half or less than it's original army size to simulate real snipers from the ancient world, lets say from 160 to 80 much better if less and has more loose spacings than regular archers. Much also better if they could use trees and sniping ability will only be toggable if they are in that kind of place. But it's not, it's disappointing to say that sniping ability can be used anywhere and at any terrain as long as they are not spotted. If you think that sniping ability should remain with any terrain, there should be at least a counter for them instead of rushing your units just to be able to take damage on them. For example, All archers should have the ability to blind fire anywhere depending where the player points it, Much similar to the feature when rallying units for generals. You still would not see the sniping archers even on flatlands but at least it can be countered by blind firing, which is much more realistic.


So what do you think?

[PumpkinBread]

"I got beat so _instert feature_ needs to change" post # elevnty billion.

[Garensterz]

"I got beat so _instert feature_ needs to change" post # elevnty billion.

I actually won.

[RGA]

You played multiplayer and expected a realistic battle?

BTW, realistically, army should always be protected by light cavalry scouting ahead and on both flanks.

[Garensterz]

You played multiplayer and expected a realistic battle?

That situation can also be applied in custom battles or campaign. So no argument there.

BTW, realistically, army should always be protected by light cavalry scouting ahead and on both flanks.

That's what I actually did to win it, by running down my cav to those pesky archers. Still, snipe ability shouldn't be toggable in flat terrains, and the number of those archers (160 in tight formation?) and still hidden? It's absurd man. Does those archers fire all their bows in prone stance with ghillie suits? It's not making sense.


I present you, the Celtic archers.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It is so hidden, it cannot be seen within 50 meters away from your user unit. They're so hidden, they still cannot be seen even if they are all bunched up with full units size. It's so hidden, it cannot also be seen in flat land sands.

Let us all gather up and help the game to be more DOTA like! yeah!

[RGA]

Known as the Plunkett position, it was invented by an Irish sharpshooter during Penninsular war. Perhaps he was inspired by Celtic saga?

[Garensterz]

Known as the Plunkett position, it was invented by an Irish sharpshooter during Penninsular war. Perhaps he was inspired by Celtic saga?

As a whole battalion, did they still used that tactic even in field battles?

[Kjertesvein]

As part of CA tradition of hidden stats, there are a number of units that allow you to spot hidden units. These are all the units who's names include raider/ambush, the roman spy units Exploratores and Praeventores, brigands, scouts, unnigarde, etc.

The normal forest spotting value is 30 for normal units, while these special units that I've mentioned have between 126 to 188.

Here is a picture of Exploratores, who have expert hiding and decent spotting capabilities, sneaking up on an unsuspecting normal army. I don't own the Langobard DLC, but the Horse hewer unit have the same hiding value as the Exploratores.

​~Wille

[Garensterz]

As part of CA tradition of hidden stats, there are a number of units that allow you to spot hidden units. These are all the units who's names include raider/ambush, the roman spy units Exploratores and Praeventores, brigands, scouts, unnigarde, etc.

The normal forest spotting value is 30 for normal units, while these special units that I've mentioned have between 126 to 188.

Here is a picture of Exploratores, who have expert hiding and decent spotting capabilities, sneaking up on an unsuspecting normal army. I don't own the Langobard DLC, but the Horse hewer unit have the same hiding value as the Exploratores.

​~Wille

"Excellent Spotting" hmm interesting find there willie. For balancing purposes, it's good though. However, I'm not sure for realism.

Does this mean that germanic tribes are doomed? I haven't seen any excellen spotting ability from them yet, or do they?

[Kjertesvein]

Thanks BP

"Excellent Spotting" hmm interesting find there willie. For balancing purposes, it's good though. However, I'm not sure for realism.

Does this mean that germanic tribes are doomed? I haven't seen any excellen spotting ability from them yet, or do they?

The germanic brigands don't have the best spotting ability at 126, but it's higher than the 30 from normal units.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

~Wille

[Border Patrol]

brigands

[TWCassius]

terrible game mechaninc. unrealistic arcadish piece of nonsense. hope it can be modded out.

What are they? cloaked predators?? wtf

[Kjertesvein]

In a multiplayer forest battle I once placed a germanic brigand unit behind enemy lines and managed to snipe off 50% of the enemy mounted general without him noticing it. The cheese is definitely real.

~Wille

[Slaists]

Have you tried a scout unit? A regular infantry unit has scouting range of around 500 (in flat fields) I believe. Some scout cavalry have close to 2000 (almost battlefield length). In SP at least, my scouts are able to spot the enemy way ahead of everyone.

Here is an example of an elite scout:

http://attila-enc.totalwar.com/#/unit/att_nom_unnigarde

Spotting range: 1700.

[Slaists]

And yes, then there is the spotting ability in trees and scrub. That same unigarde has spotting ability in trees: 168.

[Garensterz]

Thank you guys for your time explaining these types of features. very much appreciated. But The question is, it's kind of a immersion killer for me though, why are there spotting abilities for different types of units? What makes those spotting experts units different from the regular army? Did they apply contact lenses that can zoom in at the distance? It's just so.... arcade . Snipe and Spotting ability? It's quite much an unnecessary addition wouldn't you think?

Please feel free to voice out your disagreement if you must. As I am here to help myself understand more why sniping or spotting is actually a good or bad addition for the game.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

I like the snipe Ability makes some units more unique, I enjoy to make my own units with that trait.

[Kjertesvein]

This is not a new thing, it was present in Rome 2 and Attila patch 1. From a multiplayer side I like the sniping and hiding abilities. It gives the players more tools in his tool box. We can off course debate about the lack of game stat clarity, weather it's exploitable and pay-to-win elements, but the addition of the ability to snipe itself in multiplayer is in my opinion a breath of fresh air. Weather something is historical or realistic isn't the first concern. The main concern of multiplayer, in my opinion is down to game play ( the ability to make an action and the counter measures to stop said move, both instances decided by play skill level). The more tools: the more diverse the game is.

I've taken a break from Attila because of the pay-to-win elements, so I can't comment on the effect of the Celtic factions.

EDIT:

• Does Attila need a serious UI change to give the player relevant information. Yes. Range, bonus versus, spotting, etc. are important stats that need to be included in the unit cards up front.
• Is the Sniping ability exploitable? In theory, no. All the factions have units that can counter their sniping units, except for the nordic units. The Germanic Archer's 180 range outclass' all the new Celtic DLC units archer's with their 150 range. Again, in theory, I've not tested this in patch 2.

~Wille

[Butan]

EDIT:

• Does Attila need a serious UI change to give the player relevant information. Yes. Range, bonus versus, spotting, etc. are important stats that need to be included in the unit cards up front.

I really think its the biggest issue.

As you say, most abilities are "cool", they just need to be properly represented and managed.
One big problem is the relative secrecy behind the stats used, which directly influence abilities (and everything else).

Ok, everything is shown in the encyclopedia, but since its exceedingly slow and provides no tooltip, its not something you use while choosing your army and in-game, fighting.


The fact that the 3 "bullet points" use 30% of the UI stat space for nothing irks me. Its easily replacable with ~5 stat display which would exceedingly increase battle experience for all users.