Unit matchups in the Warhammer universe

**mana85** · March 15, 2015, 09:27 AM

Hey guys,

I'm trying to do some balancing of my own to make COW more enjoyable and I was wondering if you guys could help me with some of the matchups and who is supposed to win them in the lore.

for example, I'm wondering how a normal unit of Empire Halberdiers should fare against most enemies. I'd imagine they'd beat Marauders/Orc Boyz/Gors with moderate losses, but in turn lose themselves vs Bestigors/Chaos Warriors/Big Uns, and get molested by Black Orcs/Chosen of Chaos.

I'm also unsure where Greatswords fit in the warhammer lore. Are they on the level of Chaos Warriors or on the level of Chaos Chosen/Black Orcs?

If you know anything about these or other matchups, or a website where I can find more info on this, it would be appreciated a lot.

**WhiffOfGrapeshot** · March 15, 2015, 10:15 AM

Empire State Troops are physically inferior to anything Chaos, even marauders, because they're just regular humans, while even the marauders are really big scary humans, and Orcs/Bestigors/Chaos Warriors are all much stronger and tougher. The thing with Empire troops in the lore is they have discipline. They're the spearmen holding the line in the face of a massive cavalry charge without running. They're the gunline that holds until they see the whites of their eyes as the horde rushes closer. Imagine the Roman legions with their ordered shield walls working as a unit being set on by masses of Celtic warriors each nearly a foot taller than the Romans and wanting to fight heroic duels.

Greatswords are veteran State Troops that proved themselves in combat enough to be granted a suit of armor normally more reserved for a knight than a footsoldier, and a massive zweihander. Much like the real life Swiss and German mercenaries that used them, their jobs aren't to run away from the ordered pikeblocks on their own, rather to guard flanks and fill gaps, as part of the ordered machine.

And that ordered machine is the whole army on the field. Cannons and wizards taking out enemies at range, gun lines softening up charges before halberds let the enemy skewer themselves and swordsmen and greatswords cut down any that make it through, while the cavalry prepares to flank the enemy for a charge, in a hammer and anvil attack. In the fluff, that's the ONLY way the Empire survives.

In a 1 on 1 fight, Empire troops would only consistently beat the chaff units like skeletons, zombies, skavenslaves, basic goblins, and so on. If you know anything about 40K fluff, State Troops are like Imperial Guardsmen. Greatswords are a bit tougher, able to go toe-to-toe with most any basic units, but still die to anything too tough. This is why basically every battle you read in lore is hard fought for the Empire, and almost always with massive losses to their infantry bravely standing their ground as the hordes of Chaos or Greenskins beats against them like waves against rock.

**GreatSword** · March 15, 2015, 04:51 PM

Taking away phalanx formation from halberds makes them MUCH more balanced as far as the lore and table-top. Although because of the reach of their weapons they will always be a little bit stronger than the stats show, but its bearable. Its one simple change you can make in the EDU

**mana85** · March 16, 2015, 04:03 AM

So a nerf to the core infantry of the empire would have to be accompanied by a buff to their gunpowder units, since they don't seem as powerful in the mod as they are in the lore.

Taking out the spearwall formation from the halberds would make the empire lose its uniqueness imo. I'd like to find a way to make halberdiers lose versus their counterparts, but nevertheless make it a drawn out battle, so their is ample opportunity for the gunpowder units/ cavalry to make a difference.

I was also wondering how the morale of the empire core troops is in comparison to their evil counterparts. Judging from their descriptions, It seems like they should have high morale and be resistant to morale shocks, even though they are inferior to their enemies, while the beastmen, even though they are superior, should suffer from lower morale and lower resistance to morale shocks due to their chaoitic and animal nature. I havo no idea if Chaos Warriors/ Chosen ever flee in the fluff, but I guess marauders shouldn't have the highest morale either.

**WhiffOfGrapeshot** · March 16, 2015, 11:50 AM

Morale is an interesting mechanic to play with. A lot of Empire troops would have decently high morale, but a lot of enemy troops would also cause fear. Certain units like banner bearers, generals, warrior priests, and such would inspire the troops, though. Empire troops in the fluff generally manage to sit just above wavering, holding the line with trembling fists.

One thing to keep in mind, in gameplay terms, is setting the balance so X beats Y and then trying to play a campaign as an Empire faction with the masses of scripted invasions, you might be in for a hard time.

**mana85** · March 16, 2015, 01:27 PM

Indeed, I don't want to be completely destroyed, but I do want to achieve the kind of battles that happen in the fluff as you describe them, the main battle-line of an Empire army barely holding on to superior and more numerous enemies, while the gunpowder units cause loads of casualties and the battle line survives just long enough for the knights to position themselves for a decimating charge.

I've read up on some of the more important battles in the WH Fantasy universe and it seems the Empire mostly wins its battles through cavalry charges that mass-rout enemy units. If I'm playing the empire I should value my inspirational units like warrior priests and my knights very highly, because normal state troops only won't cut it.

I'd have to change the stack spawns as well like you said, 2 beastmen stacks with each 4-6 units of bestigors would prove very hard to defeat. I'm not really sure on the gors/bestigors, state troops/greatswords, marauders/chaos warriors ratio's. If i'm going to make Bestigors a lot stronger compared to State troops, I have to make sure their aren't too many of them running around on the battlefield.