Title of Hunnic leaders?

[shawn858]

Hello all

I was wondering if any of you would know what the title of the leader of the huns would be? For example, the romans have Emperor or "Augustus", the mongols had the "khan", etc. So what title would the leader of the Huns have?

[Charerg]

I read in one book I found over the internet that the Hunnic king was called 'Karaton'. At least the king of the European 'Black' Huns (there were also the 'White' Huns or Hepthalites and the 'Red' Huns or Kidarites).

The book's author (can't remember the name of either the book or the author) stated that the Huns were led by two kings, being split to two components like the later 'Golden Horde' was subdivided into White and Blue Hordes, with the Khan of the Blue Horde being senior.

Note that these names don't refer to skin colour or anything of the sort. The same publication which provided the title for the Hunnic kings noted that the 'colour codes' roughly corresponded to cardinal directions, and were pretty universal to various steppe peoples.

Black denotes North, opposite to Red, meaning South. Of these two, Black is senior.

Blue denotes East and White West, with Blue being the senior colour, also the colour of the sky god Tengri.

Although if you look at a map of the era, you'll see that the colour codes and the locations of the associated steppe kingdoms are only roughly corresponding (especially the 'White' Huns, who are located East of the Sassanids). This may be explained by assuming that the Huns 'split' into various parts while all of them were still in Asia, and so the colour codes did correspond to the directions initially.

That said, I admit I don't recall the name of the author or the book, so I'm not sure how accepted these theories are in the wider academic world, but perhaps other posters can inform us whether they are accurate.


EDIT:
Found the book: The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe by Hyun Jin Kim, available here (well, portions of it are available).

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

We don't know. "Khagan" wasn't used until after the arrival of the Avars in the late 6th and the Bulgars of Asparuch in the late 7th century (the Rouran Khaganate was the first to use it in 402), but the Huns we don't know.

The Chinese called the leader of the Xiongnu, who are connected to the Huns, "Chanyu", but that's a Chinese word and it's thought that the Yenisei word may have been Sanok or Tsanak, but the reality is that this word had duality and had a connection to the royal family of the old Xiongnu, so it likely was not the title the Huns used.

We know one of the Hunnic words, and that is Bori or "wolves" and is the term probably used to describe Attila's "Optimates" as Priscus calls them.

Hunnic was Oghur Turkic, and not much of it survives.

read in one book I found over the internet that the Hunnic king was called 'Karaton'. At least the king of the European 'Black' Huns (there were also the 'White' Huns or Hepthalites and the 'Red' Huns or Kidarites).

Karaton/Charaton (Qaraton in Oghur Turkic meaning "Black Cloak") was a name, not a title, although he was the "Supreme King" of the Huns at the time.

Although if you look at a map of the era, you'll see that the colour codes and the locations of the associated steppe kingdoms are only roughly corresponding (especially the 'White' Huns, who are located East of the Sassanids). This may be explained by assuming that the Huns 'split' into various parts while all of them were still in Asia, and so the colour codes did correspond to the directions initially.

This map is a tad off. The Chionites were not the Hua, who were the Hepthaltites. The Chionites/Kidarites were the same.

You're right in that the terms correspond to Cardinal Directions (Hence "Hara Huna" or "Black Huns" as mentioned by Chinese Soures). Although IIRC Blue and White are opposites, with White being East and Blue being West. I'd have to go back and look.

Found the book: The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe by Hyun Jin Kim, available here (well, portions of it are available).

Same one I used.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

In almost every scientific book i read about the hunns they stated that the hunns were diffrent, but eventually they always end up to use Mongolic titles, which they transfer over to the hunns, stating that the names might have been diffrent, but the society structure probably the same. And in Attila Total War CA had a similar approch with using Khan or name one of the later units Nokkor's which is also rather Mongolian.

By the way how good is the book by Kim Hyun Jin? It sounds very interesting but dealing a bit with chinese and korean scholar papers i had to learn they are not alway as subjectiv as they should be. For example you basically can't touch the Gorguyeo stuff. And that has nothing to do with the facts that my profs have generally prejudices against modern chinese scholarship. Not entirely without reason, but they are of course pearls to discover.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Kim is Australian, not Chinese, but he's of South Korean Descent. It's fairly objective although in places he tries to find Huns everywhere. E.g. he thinks Odoacer was Half-Hunnic (which actually is possible) and thinks Ardaric was a Hun (when he was a Gepid).

But it really gives an understanding of the impact the Alans and Huns had on the Western World and the beginning of an era that saw lots of steppe empires.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Kim is Australian, not Chinese, but he's of South Korean Descent. It's fairly objective although in places he tries to find Huns everywhere. E.g. he thinks Odoacer was Half-Hunnic (which actually is possible) and thinks Ardaric was a Hun (when he was a Gepid).

But it really gives an understanding of the impact the Alans and Huns had on the Western World and the beginning of an era that saw lots of steppe empires.

I knew he was of Korean origin, that is easy to recoqnice by the name. I was just careful because both Korea and China are very proud of their past and often demonstrate that in works about history. I already read the most crazy stories. One Prof from Bejiing is seriously claiming that Caesar wasn't really murdered in Rome, but escaped to China

[Aeratus]

As far as I know, there is no commonly accepted title attributed to the Hun rulers. In game, the title is "Kan", which I assume is an alternate spelling of "Khan." However, there is no evidence that this title was used by the Huns. It was used by their contemporaries in Mongolia at the time (the Rourans), however.

One thing to consider is that the exotic titles that we know are usually from the faction's own language. Because barely anything is known of the Hun language, we don't have an idea of what their titles were.

On the other hand, the linguistic preservation of titles is difficult for foreigners in terms of both translation and transliteration. The Romans generally called foreign rulers "Rex." For example, the Persian Shahenshah was generally known as "Rex Persarum." Attila was generally known as "Rex Hunnorum" (King of the Huns). The Romans were not very good at transliterating titles of foreign cultures. The meaning of titles is generally difficult for another culture to understand. For example, even the Romans had three main titles for their Emperors ("Imperator", "Caesar" and "Augustus"), and it was difficult for another culture to understand the nuanced distinction between these three titles.

Given that most of the geographical locations in this game are Roman-based, I would have preferred "Rex Hunnorum" as a more authentic description of the Hun faction leader in this game.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Khagan wouldn't have been unacceptable as it is used by the Huns later, but later is like the 7th century.

[Aeratus]

Just took a look at the book's description on Amazon. It certainly looks interesting. Despite the Author's Korean name, the work is clearly one of western scholarship rather than eastern scholarship, given the educational background of the author.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

It is. His previous work wasn't even on the Huns, IIRC. The whole point of his book merely seeks to show that the steppe culture had a significant impact on Western civilization.

[Tureuki]

Karaton should mean Black dressed or Black armoured, in modern Turkish we use it for underwear.

I still insist that there was probably not enough difference between the language Huns spoke and the Central Asian dialects, other then local Germanic and Slavic words they borrowed after they well established into Europe/Eurasia. Modern Chuvash can't be the base to make such a distinction, huge time gap cannot be ignored.

In a comparison, modern Kipchak speakers can largely understand what Cumans of Eurasia spoke, taking Codex Cumanicus as base, actually modern Turkish speakers understand Codex texts better then modern Kipchak dialects but thats another issue of course.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Karaton should mean Black dressed or Black armoured, in modern Turkish we use it for underwear.

I still insist that there was probably not enough difference between the language Huns spoke and the Central Asian dialects, other then local Germanic and Slavic words they borrowed after they well established into Europe/Eurasia. Modern Chuvash can't be the base to make such a distinction, huge time gap cannot be ignored.

In a comparison, modern Kipchak speakers can largely understand what Cumans of Eurasia spoke, taking Codex Cumanicus as base, actually modern Turkish speakers understand Codex texts better then modern Kipchak dialects but thats another issue of course.

Modern Chuvash is the only surviving member of the Lir-Turkic language group, which the Hunnic language (Oghur Bulgar) is derived from. All the other modern Turkic languages are Oghuz. The differences are mainly in syllable pronunciation and obviously word meaning and stuff evolved over time.

Normally, this approach would make sense, but there are some difficulties with this approach with the Huns. The "usual" title for Steppe/Turkic rulers is "Khagan" (Khan). This title predates the Huns in its use by the Xianbei in Mongolia. However, the Xianbei were the only people who used this title at the time, and the language of the Xianbei is thought to be proto-Mongolic rather than proto-Turkic. Moreover, it is not clear whether it was a major title (such as "Augustus") as opposed to a minor title (such as "Princeps" for the Romans). In any event, "Khagan" was not a widely used title until 402 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yujiul%C3%BC_Shelun) and it was after this time that "Khagan" started showing up across the steppes, and this title was even held by Tang Chinese emperors. But by 402, the Huns were already well established in Europe. The Avars that came after the Huns used "Khagan," but the Avars were at one time believed to have included remnants of the Rouran. If the Huns were ruled by the remnants of the Xiongnu, then the Huns likely did not use "Khagan" as the title.

So I think "Khagan" is possible, even plausible, but ultimately speculative. Personally, I think it's more likely than not that the Huns did not use Khagan.

The Avars are now known to have been a splinter of the Hepthaltites, who were called the Hua by the Chinese and were former Vassals of the Rouran before they migrated into Central Asia.

Check out this paper. I haven't read it all yet but it sheds some light on the term.

https://www.academia.edu/1804233/The_Title_Kagan

[Aeratus]

Modern Chuvash is the only surviving member of the Lir-Turkic language group, which the Hunnic language (Oghur Bulgar) is derived from. All the other modern Turkic languages are Oghuz. The differences are mainly in syllable pronunciation and obviously word meaning and stuff evolved over time.



The Avars are now known to have been a splinter of the Hepthaltites, who were called the Hua by the Chinese and were former Vassals of the Rouran before they migrated into Central Asia.

Check out this paper. I haven't read it all yet but it sheds some light on the term.

https://www.academia.edu/1804233/The_Title_Kagan

Good find. Doesn't answer the question of the OP, but interesting read. I'm glad I got TW Attila since it got me interested in steppe history again.

[Damocles]

It was probably very close to one of the many Steppe/Turkish names for rulers/kings. Possibly even one still in use later on, and which we're already familiar with. It's quite natural for people to adopt the titles and such of past suzerains they might've escaped from under or overthrown.

Ironically though, I don't think it was Mongolian. I think the original Huns were closer to Turks than, and had many peoples in their confederation, including eastern germanics. In fact, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that 'Hun' never referred to a specific ethnicity at all. Simply a large grouping of peoples.

[Aeratus]

It was probably very close to one of the many Steppe/Turkish names for rulers/kings. Possibly even one still in use later on, and which we're already familiar with. It's quite natural for people to adopt the titles and such of past suzerains they might've escaped from under or overthrown.

Normally, this approach would make sense, but there are some difficulties with this approach with the Huns. The "usual" title for Steppe/Turkic rulers is "Khagan" (Khan). This title predates the Huns in its use by the Xianbei in Mongolia. However, the Xianbei were the only people who used this title at the time, and the language of the Xianbei is thought to be proto-Mongolic rather than proto-Turkic. Moreover, it is not clear whether it was a major title (such as "Augustus") as opposed to a minor title (such as "Princeps" for the Romans). In any event, "Khagan" was not a widely used title until 402 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yujiul%C3%BC_Shelun) and it was after this time that "Khagan" started showing up across the steppes, and this title was even held by Tang Chinese emperors. But by 402, the Huns were already well established in Europe. The Avars that came after the Huns used "Khagan," but the Avars were at one time believed to have included remnants of the Rouran. If the Huns were ruled by the remnants of the Xiongnu, then the Huns likely did not use "Khagan" as the title.

So I think "Khagan" is possible, even plausible, but ultimately speculative. Personally, I think it's more likely than not that the Huns did not use Khagan.

[Damocles]

It was probably very close to one of the many Steppe/Turkish names for rulers/kings. Possibly even one still in use later on, and which we're already familiar with. It's quite natural for people to adopt the titles and such of past suzerains they might've escaped from under or overthrown.

Ironically though, I don't think it was Mongolian. I think the original Huns were closer to Turks than, and had many peoples in their confederation, including eastern germanics. In fact, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that 'Hun' never referred to a specific ethnicity at all. Simply a large grouping of peoples.

[Col. Tartleton]

King is adequate. We are speaking English after all.

[Tureuki]

What I'm saying is I don't think modern Chuvash can be a base to assume what Huns spoke, Chuvash has been evolving seperately for hundreds of years, more than a thousand actually, while Huns were newly arrived from east. Its very possible that Chuvash only become that distinct in later periods, way after Huns.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

What I'm saying is I don't think modern Chuvash can be a base to assume what Huns spoke, Chuvash has been evolving seperately for hundreds of years, more than a thousand actually, while Huns were newly arrived from east. Its very possible that Chuvash only become that distinct in later periods, way after Huns.

I've never said it is descended from Hunnic, Chuvash is simply the only modern day member of that language family. The base to "assume" what the Huns spoke is derived from their naming and the spelling of the names, which shows the letters, syllable pronunciation, etc. all correspond with the Oghur, not Oghuz, Turkic language family.

[Damocles]

This topic actually inspired me to brush up on some Hunnic origins stuff I've been meaning to read. It seems, judging by descriptions of them, that the the Hun ruling class had the East Asian 'single eyelid' feature. Hence the supposed flatness of their faces and smallness of their eyes.

That said. I think a very good point that another author that people here are familiar with, Guy Halsall said, is that it is VERY dangerous to extrapolate modern day notions of ethnicity from historical/contemporary sources. For many ancient peoples, 'ethnicity' was a multi-layered question, and had as much to do with what you did, as what you looked like.

I remember an example given of some people, who finding themselves unable to live as say, a Pashtun, (unable to raid or ride), would 'adopt' the ethnicity of say, a farmer or an urbanite as needed. They ceased being their old ethnicity, because they couldn't behave like it.

The only consensus we have about the Huns is that they were a confederation of many different tribes and peoples, whatever the true identity of the ruling caste. There was probably a lot of intermarriage.