Lower maintenance cost for churches, save the Empire

**Ecthelion** · March 09, 2015, 10:02 PM

Christianity is extremely expensive. The upkeep of churches even at the tier 2 level can easily outweigh the entire tax revenue from a province. This is particularly devastating for the WRE with the massive Corruption modifier.

I just tried a WRE start where I demolished all the churches starting from Turn 1. It was fantastic, probably the only way to win on Legendary. You get a huge bonus on the demolitions and then your income goes steeply into the black. The empty building slots allow for crucial sanitation and food buildings too. Local traditions will allow Paganism to grow back all by itself, and the religious penalty is fairly mild.

With the ERE going Pagan has been a runaway success, almost made the game too easy.

But the AI cannot execute this strategy, it can't burn down its churches.
And it should be this effective in the first place. Charging 200, 600, or even 1000 denarii from the Imperial treasury is absurd. No other building in the game has an upkeep that comes even close. This maintenance cost is what's causing the AI Romans to do so badly.

**Bramborough** · March 09, 2015, 10:57 PM

This makes a lot of sense.

I haven't played WRE/ERE yet, but I'm in an Ostrogoth campaign right now (Arian Christian). Immediately realized that I wasn't going to build anything religious when I saw the costs...other than a single Level II church just to get the priests unlocked. I can easily see that the AI just wouldn't be able to handle it. My understanding is that the Latin religious buildings are even more costly than the Arian.

I've been reading a bit about this period recently. Among the many theories I've read about various contributors to the WRE's weakness, "Ruinous cost of state support to the Church" hasn't appeared among them.

**spiderknight** · March 10, 2015, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Bramborough

This makes a lot of sense.

I haven't played WRE/ERE yet, but I'm in an Ostrogoth campaign right now (Arian Christian). Immediately realized that I wasn't going to build anything religious when I saw the costs...other than a single Level II church just to get the priests unlocked. I can easily see that the AI just wouldn't be able to handle it. My understanding is that the Latin religious buildings are even more costly than the Arian.

I've been reading a bit about this period recently. Among the many theories I've read about various contributors to the WRE's weakness, "Ruinous cost of state support to the Church" hasn't appeared among them.

Ya i cant really think why Christian buildings would be rediculously expensive for this time period. Its my understanding that the empire became Christian because it was full of people who were christians.

If most of the citizens gave the 10% tithe as stipulated in the Bible i think the church would be ok and wouldnt cost the state a fortune. I cant imagine those temples the ancient romans built were cheap. Or why pagans wouldnt be cause for unrest. CA always has some kind of axe to grind. Whether it be adding an over abundance of women or thier dislike of the church they just cant help projecting modern views on history. They continuously make their games with the idea that "this is how they should have done it" not "this is what they did"

**wulfgar610** · March 09, 2015, 11:53 PM

I smell apostasy in the ranks of CA!

I was ready for a millennia of monks chastising themselves and a good business selling relics of saints!

What would the Dark Ages be without the mystery and majesty of the church?

**Ecthelion** · March 10, 2015, 01:12 AM

Yes, Churches are expensive to build and maintain since they provide alms for the poor.

But the upkeep is not paid from the Imperial largess. They are maintained by local funding and thus would not be subject to the same kind of corruption and inefficiency of central tax collection.

In other words, the 80% corruption modifier needs to be applied to the 600 D maintenance cost as well. In addition, the Christian buildings need to provide a greater public order bonus.

**crowe15** · March 10, 2015, 01:20 AM

Christians are hypocrites, give us your money while we preach that poverty is a sin.

**Humble Warrior** · March 10, 2015, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by crowe15

Christians are hypocrites, give us your money while we preach that poverty is a sin.

I do realise we`re talking in game terms, but this looks like a dig at all christians too.

Not all Christian denominations hold gold crosses or extravagant attire like that. In fact this is exactly why some Christians split away from the mainstream. Also is that really gold? I doubt he could carry it if it was.

**WelshDragon** · March 10, 2015, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Humble Warrior

I do realise we`re talking in game terms, but this looks like a dig at all christians too.

Not all Christian denominations hold gold crosses or extravagant attire like that. In fact this is exactly why some Christians split away from the mainstream. But I see the point you make.

+1. And historically, the German "heretics" like Luther paved the way for the spread of democratic ideals though Europe and then to the New World. But I get what the OP was saying, and the Catholic Church is an easy target for barbs like this given their history. But they did also help the Roman Empire and later the HRE maintain control in a chaotic time, so they were a double edged sword, as most institutions are IMHO.

**Riekopo** · March 10, 2015, 02:09 AM

When I played as the WRE the first thing I did was demolish the churches lol. They were costing way too much maintenance.

**wulfgar610** · March 10, 2015, 02:22 AM

As the Historians point out as the Imperial government collapsed it fell on the Church to keep things working. When Attila and Gaiseric show, who confronts them?.....the Pope! While the Emperor hides!

Even though I'm an Existentialist, one can't help but admire an institution that was so successful for such a long time.

Actually the Church should offer and advantage, it became the place to send one's political rivals rather than killing them! I could sure use that right now!

**Marcus Aemilius Lepidus** · March 10, 2015, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by wulfgar610

As the Historians point out as the Imperial government collapsed it fell on the Church to keep things working. When Attila and Gaiseric show, who confronts them?.....the Pope! While the Emperor hides!

Even though I'm an Existentialist, one can't help but admire an institution that was so successful for such a long time.

Actually the Church should offer and advantage, it became the place to send one's political rivals rather than killing them! I could sure use that right now!

Well there is the other opinion that the state administration eventually failed, because there was the church with it's shadow administration always undermining the government efforts. With or without intent.

**Zwirbaum** · March 10, 2015, 03:24 AM

Remember that you do not have Churches in every single province. As Latin Christianity and most of it religious chains grant Religious Osmosis (+influence in neighbouring provinces). And yes, they maybe a bit expensive in maintenance, but as soon as you start to regaining financial security it is nothing.

**~~Legio Comitatenses!~~** · March 10, 2015, 03:45 AM

But the empire NEEDS GOD!

For the savior! Srsly, I think it's a good idea as long as you save the empire. My strategy is though hold to the last, don't cut funding, and don't pull back to Italia, as it can trigger a civil war. Better defend against the unwashed heroically in each and every battle.

**Caligula's_Horse** · March 10, 2015, 09:02 AM

I'm all for it, both to help the AI and to prevent players from having to demolish all their churches on turn one and never touching them again (or in the ERE's case, only rebuild them after the interest rate turned you richer then the god you were supposed to be worshiping, and even then they're meh-ish at best).

As it stands, building/keeping churches as the ERE or one of the Christian barbarian factions is shooting yourself in the foot, and downright suicidal for the WRE which already starts on the verge of civil collapse. Straight +public order buildings are just all round better then churches, and to add insult to injury, the Roman paganism sanitation bonus is better then all the other religions' bonuses combined.

**Giant Death Robot** · March 10, 2015, 09:47 AM

Yeah, I have no idea why they made the upkeep that high. Pagan buildings don't cost anything, hell I think even barbarian Christian buildings don't cost maintenance. Yet a simple chrch costs 200, and let's not even get into ridiculous things like the Pentarchy See which costs, what, 2 000 talents? That's basically the entire income of Constantinopolis into this one building, it's absurd. For public order bonuses which the Forum building branch takes care of very well, thank you?

**SirGerakul** · March 10, 2015, 11:09 AM

Hey guys, I just created this little mod that reduces upkeep cost for all Christian-type churches. If you want to take a look: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hurches-Upkeep

**Turbo** · March 10, 2015, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by SirGerakul

Hey guys, I just created this little mod that reduces upkeep cost for all Christian-type churches. If you want to take a look: http://I just made a little mod that...s50rRgTsHXZzWs

The link is broken.

**SirGerakul** · March 10, 2015, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Turbo

The link is broken.

Ups, thanks.

**Cope** · March 10, 2015, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ecthelion

Charging 200, 600, or even 1000 denarii from the Imperial treasury is absurd. No other building in the game has an upkeep that comes even close. This maintenance cost is what's causing the AI Romans to do so badly.

First of all, some high tier military buildings (lvl IV's) also cost similar amounts of gold in upkeep - I think 800 or 1000.

Secondly, what is causing the AI Roman's to do so badly is not a lack of money. It's the inability of the AI to protect itself in a multiple fronted war, just as we saw in Rome II. An easy way to understand this is if you fight a 2v1 battle against the AI, with your two armies coming in from different directions on the map. You will often see the AI running in circles because it has no idea which side to defend. This more or less transfers onto the campaign map. Simply giving the AI more money isn't going to solve the problem.

Christianity is a late game religion I think. But whether you'd rather have it costing food or gold is your choice I guess.

**Marcus 123** · March 10, 2015, 01:28 PM

Roman Ai doesn't suffer from low income.
Quite the contrary, if you play EREm your western partner offers you UP TO 10K gold for joining wars. Its economy is labeled as "very strong". If you look at income tab, you'll see that AI has those "hidden incomes" all over its provinces. So just summing it up, for example, WRE makes approx. 12k per turn.

The problem is, WRE AI is bugged, it doesn't use armies. Either it doesn't recruit units or he stucks his armies near cities.

So again, AI has no problems with money.