Burn the Churches! Paganism will save the Empire!

[Ecthelion]

I tried a ERE start where I went for maximum Paganism starting on Turn 1.

This is quite possibly the best economic strategy ever.
Reasons:

1. Churches are extremely expensive to maintain. Their pagan counterparts don't cost money, just a little but of food, or nothing at all (pagan shrines are free of downsides). The Theater building line is also super useful in controlling unrest, generating revenue, and spreading Paganism.
2. Paganism gives a very important bonus: +4 Sanitation. This is far more useful than the research speed upgrade you get from Greek Christianity.
3. The initial once off boost you get from dismantling Churches is extremely useful in the early game. It pays for the basic sanitation and food buildings you desperately need to get your provinces working.

What do you guys think? Has anyone tried an all out Paganism push from Turn 1 as the WRE?

[Caligula's_Horse]

I've done it with the ERE, and it turned out quite well. It drastically swelled my income, and gave me a much needed cash boost and several build slots early game that were very helpful for stabilizing the provinces and fighting off the Goths. Took forever until I was actually able to convert the empire to paganism and take advantage of the sanitation bonus though (which I think is +2, not 4); the primary benefit was just scrapping all the expensive churches.

I'd imagine the WRE would enjoy similar benefits. Maintaining religious uniformity across the empire just isn't very important in Attila (faster and more efficient to just build +public order buildings for the same effect), so churches are very rarely worth the upkeep. I say go for it; WRE needs all the help it can get.

[crowe15]

If you want to convert then 35% of your pooukation must be the religion you wish to convert to.

you can check by going to Faction Summary.

[crowe15]

I got a Divine Triumph with the WRE with Graeco-Roman Paganism as State Religion.

3/5 of the Basilica's are good.

Serapeum +20% wealth to culture buildings. Great for building in Provinces like Italia, Thrace, Ravenna, or any province with Marble/Statue Carver. Marble provinces such as Tarraconesis, Liguria, Africa, Asia, Macedonia, Asoristan, etc.

Basilica to Hermes. +20% wealth to Commerce buildings, great in practically all cities that have Markets/Emporiums, fishing/trading ports, and provinces with Iron, Lead, Dyes, Silk, Gold, Furs, Salt, Timber, Spices.

Basilica to Sol Invictus, +1 experience for recruits. Good for Military training provinces like Maxima Sequani, and Palaestina. Note: Although A Triumph Arch is an alternative to the temple. I find the +10 Public Order, +10 relgious influence helpful in maintain public order of the province.




The other 2 basilicas.

Isis, +4 growth, and +15% agricultural wealth. Considering how fertility goes to through the game, the extra agricultural wealth is minuscule, and the +4 growth is not worth 10,000 denarii. I like Isis but unless CA makes it to where, Isis also increases wealth from animal husbandry as well, then her temple is just not as beneficial as Hermes or the Serapis.

Imperial Basilica, basically +1 Romano Osmosis, and increases the amount of priests you can train. (For example building imperial basilica increases your priest cap from 3>4).





Christianity is only as useful, or better then Paganism when you research the core Roman Civil techs that enable you to build higher tier churches. However, this also disables your legacy techs and prohibit you from building Circuses and Aqueduct Networks/Cloaca.

I only researched the core techs just to get to Hereditary Monarch (you need the xian techs to get it) and build the Royal Court so I could achieve the Divine Triumph.

Have to admit, didn't think it was worth it. The Military/Cultural Victory gave me a disappointed cut scene, with a christian narrative, even though I was Pagan!!!!!!

When I got Divine Triumph, the Record tabs popped up, and said, I had won a Divine Triumph. That's it.

I think I got the Veni,Vedi,Veci achievement. But I don't understand how that works. Because that achievement says, fight and win every single battle you play. Even though I'm the WRE...well you can just figure out the likelihood of winning EVERY single battle.


In conclusion. Is Paganism worth it, yes it is. Is Christianity worth it? Well considering the obscene corruption in this game, the requirement for ~200 units and at least 100-140 regions to win. I'd say christianity is not worth it because of the painful maintenance costs associated with it's churches. The xian techs are not worth it because you sacrifice your key sanitation and entertainment services that are vital to helping fund your entire empire, plow through 95% corruption and supporting the maintenance costs of the churches themselves.

[Unactuality]

The ERE can easily fund churches - and anything else it desires - by utilizing the absurdly overpowered 5% interest mechanic. I'm going to try a pagan WRE campaign next though; sounds like it'll be fun.

[WelshDragon]

Query: in order to switch in a WRE campaign, if will not let me on turn 1, so do I just wait after destroying all churches for the pagan numbers to rise before I can convert the Empire?

[the lightning legion]

i think 35 percent of your empire has to be pagan before you can convert to it

[WelshDragon]

i think 35 percent of your empire has to be pagan before you can convert to it

Yeah, I supposed you have to build some pagan-inducing buildings and wait... thanks.

[the lightning legion]

well there are two landmarks in Italy and another in Greece that confer a 10 pagan influence to the local province so that should help move things along

and amphitheatres also provide pagan influence along with culture money and public order

[Kjertesvein]

well there are two landmarks in Italy and another in Greece that confer a 10 pagan influence to the local province so that should help move things along

and amphitheatres also provide pagan influence along with culture money and public order

Those two provinces Thracia and Magna Gracia are the two best late game food provinces in the game, so if I had one reason to convert to Paganism this would be it. 300 + free food is not a bad deal when fertility hits rock bottom.

~Wille

[Aenima]

I haven't really paid much attention to religion, but I dismantled all churches in the WRE on turn 1 or 2 and it was a god send. As well as the money it gives you from tearing buildings down it removes a total of about 1K from spending, and since pretty much all the provinces eventually revolt anyway there's no real reason not to tear the down. Cash influx + more money per turn and it's sound to do so since revolt is inevitable.

[Geronimo2006]

Does converting to Arian Christianity make the Arian barbarians friendlier to your faction?

I've noticed that after I destroyed the Churches, that some of the Pagan barbarians like the Suebi seem to like me more. They made peace with me. On the other hand the ERE has ended its military access agreement with me.

[Bramborough]

I have no doubt that this works well from a gameplay perspective, and will probably do the same when I get around to playing WRE/ERE.

It does seem a little immersion-breaking, however, that there's such a large incentive...with little negative consequence...for Rome to abandon Christianity and return to paganism. Seems particularly weird in the case of the ERE. The real question is: why do Christian religious buildings cost so much maintenance in the first place? What historical trend (if any) is this supposed to replicate? I don't recall ever reading something like "exorbitant economic cost of state-supported church" as one of the factors weakening the late Roman Empire, either east or west.

[Geronimo2006]

I have no doubt that this works well from a gameplay perspective, and will probably do the same when I get around to playing WRE/ERE.

It does seem a little immersion-breaking, however, that there's such a large incentive...with little negative consequence...for Rome to abandon Christianity and return to paganism. Seems particularly weird in the case of the ERE. The real question is: why do Christian religious buildings cost so much maintenance in the first place? What historical trend (if any) is this supposed to replicate? I don't recall ever reading something like "exorbitant economic cost of state-supported church" as one of the factors weakening the late Roman Empire, either east or west.

The Church was lavishly funded by the government and also by the Roman Christian senators. Money that could have funded the army instead.

[Tanq]

It's very immersion-breaking because of two annoying game design issue and perhaps one more in the balance department.

Firstly, the ingame unit models and textures remain christian-like no matter what happens. From the chi-ro on the shields, warship sails, all the way to missing/placeholder unit speeches. Second, the patriarchal sees in just about the most significant cities in the empire. it's permanent and prevents any other kinds of temples from being built. Not too much of a problem, since a theater will do just as well, but it's just annoying, that I can't set up a library-serapeum combo in Alexandria, as it's meant to be.

Balance-wise... Christianity is quite counterproductive in the earliest stages of the campaign. it isn't only beneficial to bring down all the churches - It's advisable! But later-on... Very tempting to rebuild those churches and benefit from the decent order and research buffs, since money soon ceases to be issue for any finacially-disciplined Byzantine.

As opposed to food...

[crowe15]

It's very immersion-breaking because of two annoying game design issue and perhaps one more in the balance department.

Firstly, the ingame unit models and textures remain christian-like no matter what happens. From the chi-ro on the shields, warship sails, all the way to missing/placeholder unit speeches. Second, the patriarchal sees in just about the most significant cities in the empire. it's permanent and prevents any other kinds of temples from being built. Not too much of a problem, since a theater will do just as well, but it's just annoying, that I can't set up a library-serapeum combo in Alexandria, as it's meant to be.

Balance-wise... Christianity is quite counterproductive in the earliest stages of the campaign. it isn't only beneficial to bring down all the churches - It's advisable! But later-on... Very tempting to rebuild those churches and benefit from the decent order and research buffs, since money soon ceases to be issue for any finacially-disciplined Byzantine.

As opposed to food...

Yea they gotta fix that problem and enable non christian temples to be built in patriarchy see cities. Agree with a lot of the pagan issue content when converting. The speeches and voices can also be importing from Rome 2!

[WelshDragon]

The ironic part is that is that historically, the church stepped in when the WRE government apparatus failed, and actually helped people in areas fighting or over-run by the "barbarians." IMHO, that's why it gained so much cache during the dark ages... that and because clergymen were the only people left who could read and write. But I agree that going pagan, in this game, is a no brainier until the player gets something back for the upkeep costs of Latin christian buildings... maybe a bigger bonus to happiness and some kind of admin bonus...

[wulfgar610]

As opposed to food...

That's a lot of bulls to be sacrificed.

The Pagan cults had atrophied before the Christians got into power and these simply filled what had become a vacuum. Christianity became mass market opium for people at cost effective prices.

You didn't even have to be rich, in fact poverty which was the every day reality for most people, was seen as a desired state of being. All you had to do was click your heels and you were home!

[Geronimo2006]

It's very immersion-breaking because of two annoying game design issue and perhaps one more in the balance department.

Firstly, the ingame unit models and textures remain christian-like no matter what happens. From the chi-ro on the shields, warship sails, all the way to missing/placeholder unit speeches. Second, the patriarchal sees in just about the most significant cities in the empire. it's permanent and prevents any other kinds of temples from being built. Not too much of a problem, since a theater will do just as well, but it's just annoying, that I can't set up a library-serapeum combo in Alexandria, as it's meant to be.

Balance-wise... Christianity is quite counterproductive in the earliest stages of the campaign. it isn't only beneficial to bring down all the churches - It's advisable! But later-on... Very tempting to rebuild those churches and benefit from the decent order and research buffs, since money soon ceases to be issue for any finacially-disciplined Byzantine.

As opposed to food...

Well Wikipedia says that some historians (though not all) think the chi-ro symbol may originally have been Pagan (referring to astrology) before the Christians adopted it like so much else from the Pagans. There are also allegations that Christian halos used to represent Sun-worship before sainthood.

[wulfgar610]

Well Wikipedia says that some historians (though not all) think the chi-ro symbol may originally have been Pagan (referring to astrology) before the Christians adopted it like so much else from the Pagans. There are also allegations that Christian halos used to represent Sun-worship before sainthood.

Chi-ro is simply Greek letters equivalent to the latin JC.

It does resemble Hagal Rune associated with the God Thor. So maybe it was Thor trying to communicate with Constantine to convert Rome to Germanic Paganism, but a sneaky Christian moved in and stole his thunder?