My Thoughts about increased garrison

[Alu10]

I played alot of vanilla Attila for now. At first with the huns then i played as WRE and it should be clear that there are alot of city defenses with the garrison only as them. Multiple times, I could defeat full stacks with only the 4-5 garrison units i normally had for defense. For me personally, increasing the garrison is way too favourable for the player, because the player only is able to use the units efficiently to defeat a threat. There shouldnt be alot of garrison units at the start, there are already buildings in that increase the garrison, it should be rather like tactically choosing which settlement needs increased garrison and then build additional defense for the settlement and not a way too strong defense for the player so he fends off 80% of the AI attacks giving the player an easy game and not much for the AI because the player doesnt bother that much if the AI has some units more in a garrison. As much as I hate getting plundered all around my empire, it should be annoying and frustrating and tactical in terms of building. I notice how mods cause the AI to be less effective, in battle for example by a slower battle and increased garrisons. If they raid settlements and get half destroyed by the garrison only, then having to fight a regular army of yours, its clear who wins easily. You can increase the garrison from buildings like guard house for WRE as an alternative, or just keep your system and say "BS".

That are just my thoughts. I would like to hear some other opinions.

[kanzy]

You raise a good point, at first the increase garrisons was an answer to the storm of revolts/hordes attacking your cities with no hope of defending them with very few armies and a bad economy, but now for me personally I have got the hang of things and have a better understanding of campaign mechanics i Attila, I think I should remove the garrison increasing mods and play more tactical,, I think it would be more fun for me.


P.S. Could you use Paragraphs more? it was hard for me to read your post, old age and all

[Korvyr]

Don't forget the WRE Ai, they usually die before Attila even gets there.

The garrison mod prevents the WRE ai from dying so quick.

[miTo82]

@kanzy:

This is exactly the reason why I installed this mod. I thought increasing the garrisons is an effective way to protect the cities from razing hordes. I my first campaign (without the FOTE mod) I was really disgusted to see half europe in flames with all these completely destroyed provinces.

So I installed FOTE and started some new campaigns to see how everything is developing. But then I could see the "problems":
Especially in the beginning is it extremely hard for the Player to conquer new cities. My own army is always outnumbered because there are a lot of units in the enemy city itself. Most factions start with one region and two armies. So, in the first couple of rounds I spend all of my money in recruiting new units. But because the AI does the same and has the extra units in the garrisons, it is nearly impossible to conquer them.

[TWCassius]

Yeah, someone raised this in another thread... I agree partially that it's a bit problematic cuz with increased garrisons it's much easier to defend a city... and for the romans campaign, the chaos at the beginning (being overwhelmed by assaulting hordes) force the player to take those tactical decisions, abandon settlements etc.

But in the other hand, in my opinion, it's so ridiculous when a huge city is under siege and there's 4 units to defend it. There's no epicness, it's too "tiny"and immersion breaking - is arcadey, kinda minor "simulation" of a siege battle.

Maybe we could increase the garrison, but with low level troops - but in quantity to fill the walls!!!! - and nerf the towers, or maybe take out "automatic"arrows from such towers... arrows just from archers units! And in counterpart, increase a lot assault troop numbers (have you seen dmboss mods??)... maybe it is possible to give onagers to assaulting troops? I mean, not out of nowhere but after 2 or 3 turns besieging, the attacker could receive an onager unit (just for the siege like those fixed onagers) same way we're able to order ladders etc...

[Hunor]

Hmm, and why dont making garrison in two ways? one is tiny town or villages. hier the garrisons like vanilla. But bigger cities ( walled) or extra military buildings add a lot of garrisons.

[avatarius]

Indeed, making two garrison scripts seems as a favorable option gameplay-wise. Large cities certainly should have additional garrisons but lesser settlements will have to make do with limited garrisons.

[Dresden]

Our current garrison system will probably be worked on as we go forward. Don_Diego did a great job of setting it up but it will certainly need balancing (especially as we change the upgrade/levy system to have both levies and upgrades).

[legio_XX]

Our current garrison system will probably be worked on as we go forward. Don_Diego did a great job of setting it up but it will certainly need balancing (especially as we change the upgrade/levy system to have both levies and upgrades).

I think if its changed the provincial Capitals should stay the same, or at least close to how you have them. I can understand lowering garrisons for small ones but I hate seeing my large cities fall to like a half stack of low tier horse and spears. However I LOVE having A well fortified limes on my border! I personally think you guys are on the right track!

[Grizwald714]

Dresden will deleting units from different create a problem like causing some vanilla garrison units to come back or does the FOE garrison db file completely override the vanillia one. Because I can create a smaller garrison submod in an hour or 2 and post it up for people who dont like garrisons as large as they are right now if you don mind.

[Grizwald714]

I do as well for the most part especially for cities. If anything mabe level 1 and 2 cities should lose 1 levy spear unit and a bow unit. However for towns mainly level 1 and 2 they should receive the quite a few units smaller maby 2 or 3 luminatii max, 1 bow and scout cav unit for a level 1 roman town then level 2 maby just add 1 luminati and 1 bow unit. However for level 3 and higher towns just like cities I think they should have higher garrisions its mainly just the lower level town that should be mainly lowered and the cities a little bit if at all. This will mainly make the starting game harder for the romans and easier for the barbarians while making taking territory in later game harder for everyone like it is now.

Also just a side note Dresden could you guys give the garrison chain from the WRE to the ERE as well.

[miTo82]

OK, after I had some huge problems yesterday to conquer the first neighbor cities (I started with the Geats at hard difficulty. First I took the Jutes after they moved their whole army to France by ship and left Alabu unattended, then I visited the Danes, what was a bit harder to handle…) I could build my own little viking “empire” und played till ~415 A.D.

And I have to say, after the first really hard steps, the game is much more fun now! Especially with the bigger garrisons in the cities! After I took Gothiscanza I decided to visit the Romans with my Saxon and Anglish friends. So I had a couple of battles in France and it was really more interesting because I could not loot hals France with only one Tier 1 army. I had to be more careful, having some brakes to fill up my army again, buy some mercenaries and siege bigger towns with my allies.

So, after the hard beginning, the campaign is mich more challenging now… and more fun!

I have to say, that you guys make a really good job! Keep going on!!

[La Tene]

I'd like to suggest something a bit radical. Increase recruit costs for both generals and army units by a large sum IE: around X 1.75 ... Garrison numbers can be around 6 to 12 ... and what this does is to make each unit feel more precious but also means battles for settlements can actually consist of stacks at around just 10 to 15 out on conquest. With higher recruit costs the big epic battle is usually just a full 20 stack attacking probably 20 or 25 defenders rather than 30 or 40 on each side. I think these smaller battles are much more manageable and desirable.

[justfun]

The idea of increasing army cost and increased garrisons sounds interesting. It could reduce the ridiculous two stacks small states can field and renew in a few turns and could make every battle more decisive. The AI seems to attack in coalitions, so it would still be possible for AI allys to conquer settlements with the increased garrisons. But this would need some testing.

Even better would be increased recruitment times, but somebody mentioned in another thread that the AI cannot handle it.

[La Tene]

Increased recruit duration would have a similar effect, making units feel more precious, but, if FOE has similar prices to vanilla Attila I think they need to come up regardless. This really low 200 or 400 coin recruit cost formula doesn't reflect the cost of equipment very well, and, it leads to these problems being mentioned, small factions giant armies etc.. I game with high recruit costs and I can say it is a much better experience due to the intimacy you feel for your troops and not having to manage giant battles.

[Crappy]

I would like to see two versions of Fall of the Eagles, or at least a submod, that removed the increased garrison size for the Eastern and Western Roman Empires, so that, if the player wanted to play a campaign as the Roman Empires, they could still have the challenge of small garrisons, but if the player plays as a barbarian tribe, they could play with normal garrison sizes, and have a tough time making an incursion into the empire.

[Dresden]

I think the newest version may have smaller garrisons, at least for now. This is due to the new copy version of units and the fact that some units are now replaced.

[Butan]

Multiple times, I could defeat full stacks with only the 4-5 garrison units i normally had for defense.

I really doubt that... Or you had some "elite" garrison!



Like some said its immersion breaking to have so few garrison units (even for minor settlements it shouldnt be that low). If the garrison size is too high, instead of removing units its far better to nerf arrow towers - boiling oil - other defensive structures - and of course tweaks to the quality of the garrison units so they are easily broken and very unrealiable as stand-alone. Since FotE makes their own units everything is possible.

[Crappy]

I really doubt that... Or you had some "elite" garrison!



Like some said its immersion breaking to have so few garrison units (even for minor settlements it shouldnt be that low). If the garrison size is too high, instead of removing units its far better to nerf arrow towers - boiling oil - other defensive structures - and of course tweaks to the quality of the garrison units so they are easily broken and very unrealiable as stand-alone. Since FotE makes their own units everything is possible.

It's definitely possible. I've done the same, especially after unlocking legio. If you position your units at a choke point, you can hold off many times your number of units because of the strength difference between legio and low tier barbarians.

[Grizwald714]

Please don't make the garrisons to much smaller as I said before I personal believe they just need small tweaks. Also the larger garrisons does wonders for allowing the AI roman empires to stay around a lot longer. Also I think that you should keep the low level units as garrision units and they shouldn't be upgraded when units get upgraded they should stay as low tier units.