Hun's cataphracts?

[Cuong Vu]

Did you guys see them?
I can't believe EA made Hunnic cataphracts. I don't even remember seeing horse bardings being used commonly in this period, especially by the Huns.

It's quite an irritating sight to be honest.

[wulfgar610]

Did you guys see them?
I can't believe EA made Hunnic cataphracts. I don't even remember seeing horse bardings being used commonly in this period, especially by the Huns.

It's quite an irritating sight to be honest.

My god, you were alive back then? You must be rather old by now?

Barded horse or cataphacts saw heavy amongst some of the Sarmations although the Sarmations being metal poor extensively used rawhide or keratin for their armor. Whether the Huns followed suit is matter of conjecture. The only recorded sources picture the Huns as light cavalry making great use of their bows.

[Cuong Vu]

Barded horse or cataphacts saw heavy amongst some of the Sarmations although the Sarmations being metal poor extensively used rawhide or keratin for their armor. Whether the Huns followed suit is matter of conjecture. The only recorded sources picture the Huns as light cavalry making great use of their bows.

Yeah, I am sure the Samartians had bardings, but I mean the Huns, not Samartians. You get it?

Besides, it seems you agree with me on that the Huns probably didn't field the most heavy types of cavalry.

[daelin4]

Well we're talking CA here.

I don't mind Huns having Lancers, but I think six of them is redundant.

[RGA]

There is no reason to believe that the Huns didn't use horse armour. If they were to go into melee, they would want to have the best protection available both for the rider and the horse. The technique is already there, as wulfgar610 mentioned. Horse barding made from raw hide or keratin (horse hooves cut into thin slides then sewed together) was nothing an ordinary Hunnic man or woman couldn't do.

Unless you tell me that the Huns shivered from getting close and only fought from afar.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Barded horse or cataphacts saw heavy amongst some of the Sarmations although the Sarmations being metal poor extensively used rawhide or keratin for their armor. Whether the Huns followed suit is matter of conjecture. The only recorded sources picture the Huns as light cavalry making great use of their bows.

Actual finds of organic scale or lamellar armor remain confined to Central Asia and East Asia (Barring the two Roman horse neckguards from Karanis and Dura Europos). The Huns, like their Avar successors, probably used barding made of quilted linen or wool, when they couldn't afford iron, a style which the Romans would later adopt for their Kataphraktoi in the late 7th century after their richest provinces were captured by the Arabs. And it wasn't plain either: we know from Procopius and other sources that the Huns and Avars loved color.

We also know that those quilted fabric coifs the Romans wear under their metal helmets in the "Byzantine" period also come from the Avars, so it's only a matter of extrapolation.

Yeah, I am sure the Samartians had bardings, but I mean the Huns, not Samartians. You get it?

The Huns were a multi-ethnic group with an Altai-Oghur core body, so the use of Sarmatians, who specialized as heavy cavalry Lancers, is not to be unexpected. therefore it is not only entirely possible, but also rather likely, that the Huns had Cataphracts in their ranks even though the majority of them specialized as light cavalry.

And then again, I doubt the Romans would call anyone who wasn't decked head-to-toe in iron armor heavy cavalry anyways.

[Tardi]

Actual finds of organic scale or lamellar armor remain confined to Central Asia and East Asia (Barring the two Roman horse neckguards from Karanis and Dura Europos). The Huns, like their Avar successors, probably used barding made of quilted linen or wool, when they couldn't afford iron, a style which the Romans would later adopt for their Kataphraktoi in the late 7th century after their richest provinces were captured by the Arabs. And it wasn't plain either: we know from Procopius and other sources that the Huns and Avars loved color.

We also know that those quilted fabric coifs the Romans wear under their metal helmets in the "Byzantine" period also come from the Avars, so it's only a matter of extrapolation.



The Huns were a multi-ethnic group with an Altai-Oghur core body, so the use of Sarmatians, who specialized as heavy cavalry Lancers, is not to be unexpected. therefore it is not only entirely possible, but also rather likely, that the Huns had Cataphracts in their ranks even though the majority of them specialized as light cavalry.

And then again, I doubt the Romans would call anyone who wasn't decked head-to-toe in iron armor heavy cavalry anyways.

Sure, agree with you, call it something else that does not change the things, Huns had heavy cavalry and the cataphrat style units as well. Also as i know the heave cavalry as well as cataphracts originate from Sarmatian and Median cavalry, so Huns as a successors of the first (as Huns settled the land of Sarmatians) should partly inherit their legacy.

[Aeratus]

Yes I did see them!

...and they look fine to me. Cataphract (horse barding) was generally known in the Steppes, even if some cultures used it less than others. In this case, since the Huns incorporated Sarmatians into their dominion, it is more than plausible that the Huns had cataphract-like cavalry in their army.

As to horse barding being generally known in the Steppes, here are some other examples from this time period (c. 400-550):

Cataphracts of the Rouran Empire based in Mongolia


Cataphract of the Xianbei (Mongolic tribe who conquered Northern China)

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

^^Both are excellent examples, and many of those styles would appear in Eurasia in the 6th-8th centuries via the Avars, Gokturks, and Khazars.

[Cuong Vu]

Yes I did see them!

...and they look fine to me. Cataphract (horse barding) was generally known in the Steppes, even if some cultures used it less than others. In this case, since the Huns incorporated Sarmatians into their dominion, it is more than plausible that the Huns had cataphract-like cavalry in their army.

As to horse barding being generally known in the Steppes, here are some other examples from this time period (c. 400-550):

Cataphracts of the Rouran Empire based in Mongolia

Man, those are bardings from the Tujue Empire (Kok Turuk Empire) and the latter is indeed Xianbei Northern Wei.

They are not the Huns.

Maybe I am still influenced by the Huns-Xiongnu affiliation.

Sigh

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

He is right, I mentioned that those styles don't appear with the Huns but via the Avars.

[stsatan]

Hi CuongVu, long time no see.

Yep, actually cataphract and the like are quite prominent in steppe warfare since at least the 200s BC. The reason, I think, is simple: when you charge into a storm of arrow, the horses are usually the first casualty. So how then could you deliver a decisive blow, for example, by taking out the enemy general? Armoured horse, of course, and anything less is rather suicidal . (Did anyone see the awful action of the Steppe Lancer against... almost every other units?)

Light melee cav could work rather well in skirmish or raid, but true shock cavalry on the steppes should be barded with arrow-proof armor, whatever it was made from, leather lamellar, iron, horn, quilted clothes etc....

On the other hand, it seems kinda rigidly orthodox and simplistic to think in term of Sarmatians heavy lancers vs Huns light horse archers. Of course, like most things about the Huns, it's a matter of extrapolating and conjecturing whether or not they got heavy horse armor, but don't you agree that the game seems more interesting this way?

And btw, CuongVu, the Hunnic units from CA do take inspirations from Gorelik's work, which do lend them some credibility. Although how he reconstruct the whole panoplies of armour from piece and bits of evidence still elude me....

Plate 5 page 13:

http://fr.scribd.com/doc/21654141/Wa...Eurasia#scribd



The reason there is so many variant of a single type of units is due to piss-poor design of roster and lack of asset resources, I think. But honestly, the Huns seems to get a rather decent and diverse roster, balanced with long shielded spearmen (nice and historically correct), sword and axemen (among them, the dreaded Orcs...oops, Uar Warrior), foot archers, horse archers, melee horse raider etc... And almost everyone on horse get a bow. What could you ask for more?

Btw, as a favor, is there anyone here can read Russian? I found this ebook about Siberian warrior, uploaded by Matmohair, but can't make a single word out of it. Could you tell me a little about the section about the cataphracts, about page 85? Thx a bunch.

http://fr.scribd.com/doc/64182824/Siberian-Warriors-and-Weapons-Russian

[Darios]

Btw, as a favor, is there anyone here can read Russian? I found this ebook about Siberian warrior, uploaded by Matmohair, but can't make a single word out of it. Could you tell me a little about the section about the cataphracts, about page 85? Thx a bunch.

http://fr.scribd.com/doc/64182824/Siberian-Warriors-and-Weapons-Russian

Thanks for posting the work, I'm going to enjoy reading this over the weekend) The pic of the Cataphract there comes from the Iron Age Sargatskaya culture in Western Siberia (The Eastern Urals foothills region that borders the forest steppe from the north to the grass steppe towards the south). The armor is of a "Scythian" design that employs horn and bone (Iron wasn't used until the 2nd Century BC) and covers the rider's body all the way to the feet. He carries a spear for the charge and a long sword for close combat. Most of the Sargatskaya Culture warriors fought in typical Scythian style - light horse archers with bronze arrowheads - but the pictured warrior clearly shows strong Sarmatian influence among their people as they had been using long iron swords since the 5th-4th centuries BC.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Plate 5 page 13:

http://fr.scribd.com/doc/21654141/Wa...Eurasia#scribd

I'm actually a bit surprised at the accuracy of this...