Wales

**Dahvos** · March 06, 2015, 09:55 AM

I was just wondering if Wales by the start date of the campaign should be its own kingdom like Gwynedd or Demetae? The romans withdrew from Wales around 383a.d. as far as history knows. I just want to hear peoples opinions on this since in the game Wales is occupied by Romans still. I have attached a map of the end of Roman occupation of Britain.

**WelshDragon** · March 06, 2015, 10:02 AM

In a word, probably. But they don't have a Celtic culture yet, so it probably isn't a possibility until a Celts Culture Pack or something down the road.

And is it just me that thinks there will be an expansion regarding the Romans leaving Britania and the Angles/Saxons/Jutes invasion with some legendary Romano-Celtic leader named Arthur rallying the remnants? I think that would have the possibility to be an EPIC expansion on par with VI and CIG. Sorry, I digress.

**Totalheadache** · March 06, 2015, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by WelshDragon

In a word, probably. But they don't have a Celtic culture yet, so it probably isn't a possibility until a Celts Culture Pack or something down the road.

And is it just me that thinks there will be an expansion regarding the Romans leaving Britania and the Angles/Saxons/Jutes invasion with some legendary Romano-Celtic leader named Arthur rallying the remnants? I think that would have the possibility to be an EPIC expansion on par with VI and CIG. Sorry, I digress.

eh the celtic culture never left and never will

**Totalheadache** · March 06, 2015, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Dahvos

I was just wondering if Wales by the start date of the campaign should be its own kingdom like Gwynedd or Demetae? The romans withdrew from Wales around 383a.d. as far as history knows. I just want to hear peoples opinions on this since in the game Wales is occupied by Romans still. I have attached a map of the end of Roman occupation of Britain.

Yes am pretty sure Wales reverted back to it's own tribal boundaries (which I think still existed under Roman rule but the presence of the legionary forts and the legion at Wroxeter pacified my Welsh brothers) and elected it's own leaders.

Hard to say whether they were that sympathetic to the Romano British and how they should be portrayed in terms of units. Certainly not the Nordic majority which CA is giving Celtic tribes.

Am not even sure there should be the Ebdanians as the biggest factor in Ireland. Should also be the High Kings of Ulster?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Ulster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navan_Fort

Some people are guessing there will be DLC. Knowing CA they will probably create Welsh factions as Romano British, which I dont think is right. (well they might have adopted some Roman techniques but the ease at which the Saxons, albeit over a few centuries were able to overun the country tends to suggest they didnt).

By 900's Wales was def under Saxon dominance/influence (not directly per say but the Saxons were def the stronger). (although Offa had created a "peacefull" boundary between the two).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelstan

**Dahvos** · March 06, 2015, 10:13 AM

I agree with both your posts. I could care less with the semi mythical king arthur but this time period in Britain is very interesting with the withdraw of the Romans. Britain just gets raped by all the invasions from the Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Scotti, Attacotti, Pict and Irish.

**Totalheadache** · March 06, 2015, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dahvos

I agree with both your posts. I could care less with the semi mythical king arthur but this time period in Britain is very interesting with the withdraw of the Romans. Britain just gets raped by all the invasions from the Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Scotti, Attacotti, Pict and Irish.

well wasnt "raped" per say. Yeah there was death and destruction but no real records of mass killings...in fact lots of celtic names remain in Britain along with the Saxon...

**Mausolos of Caria** · March 06, 2015, 10:17 AM

Britain is just a mess right now. The Irish faction shouldn't be the Ebdani, the Caledonians should be part of the Picts, there are no Scoti and then this Wales thing as well (to be fair I didn't know about it up to now, with all due respect to Wales). And the worst thing is, as people said, that there's no Celtic culture apart from religion, but they use Nordic units at this point. It's not eve 100 % right to say the Picts are Celtic, but that would be the least problem if they portrayed them as Celts, just add 2-3 unique units.

**Lugotorix** · March 06, 2015, 10:49 AM

Dal Riada, or the Irish, and a Welsh Kingdom with Corinium as it's capital. I agree, would make for an intriguing DLC campaign. One of the main reasons the Briton chieftain Vortigern invited Hengist was because of Irish raids.

**WelshDragon** · March 06, 2015, 10:59 AM

Also remember that Wales was never occupied by the invading forces, and was a very difficult place to take historically due to geography and the tactics used to repel invaders.

I think a Britannia Invasion expansion, if done right, could be the best ever... it was a pivotal and fascinating time in history!

**Totalheadache** · March 06, 2015, 01:16 PM

I dont see why some Nordic units shouldnt be available to any faction in the British Isles but perhaps only if you have an alliance with Norse factions or mercenaries. The Saxons need less I think.

P.S And as it stands Norse spearmen are better than their Saxon counterparts it seems...and the Geats seem a bit unloved. Plus the Danes. (I mean I could see the advantages of having the extra naval firepower but so far as my campaigns are playing out naval power is def secondary to military).

**Sharpe** · March 06, 2015, 01:29 PM

cymru am byth

Srs though I want Celtic and Romano British culture and factions.

How could you not represent Britain properly CA? I'm shocked.

**Linke** · March 06, 2015, 02:17 PM

No reallyin reality the Gaelic, Pictish, and Brithonic cultures were not really the same. Of course I don't expect that level of detail but the Picts should have a few unique units.

**Totalheadache** · March 06, 2015, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Linke

No reallyin reality the Gaelic, Pictish, and Brithonic cultures were not really the same. Of course I don't expect that level of detail but the Picts should have a few unique units.

Well am pretty sure the Gaels in Ireland would have been different to say the Welsh who might have picked up stuff from their Romano British. They would have seen the legionaries at the forts...

Plus the Cornovii which am proud to say is where some of my family come from had the first Roman cohort made up solely of British men..(and only cohort I think).

But I do think it's gonna take some digging around to find out exactly what type of units the Irish of the dark ages had...(found out they did use the sling+bow but armour tended to light, they did have horses which they copied from the anglo-saxons but only really got mail+two handed axes after contact with the vikings).

I think you could allow CA a bit of leeway in re authenticity..i.e they should get some good bows+skirmishers with ambushers plus chariots (yep I thin they still were using them) and you could give them some two-handed axe units. Plus the usual head-hunters/druids etc.

Could make a really nasty faction

p.s but no real navy

**SteelCityCaesar** · March 06, 2015, 08:41 PM

Maybe the independant British faction that emerges could be in there but they wouldn't be 'Welsh'. Welsh was what the Anglo-Saxons called the native Britains that lived beyond the kingdoms they founded in what was to become England, it was their word for foreigner or stranger and was a bit of a mockery considering they kicked them out of their own lands. So yeah, the Welsh were just what was left of the native British population after the Anglo-Saxon conquests, much later than the start of the game.

**Sharpe** · March 06, 2015, 10:28 PM

So yeah, the Welsh were just what was left of the native British population after the Anglo-Saxon conquests

Most of the native Britons became "Anglo Saxons" and in turn the English today, I.E adopted Saxon culture, their Germanic language etc. That was the nature of the conquest, it was as much a cultural replacement and hegemonic conquest as it was military. The natives that were indeed driven out were likely the military elite and their loyalists. The idea that 50,000 -100,000 Saxons, Jutes and Angles could eliminate/drive out a native population of around 5 million is absurd. That would have set the British Isles back hundreds of years of population growth.

In 1066 when Harold faced William there is a good chance that 70-90% of the Saxon army was descended from the Briton Celtic stock and pre-Celtic neolithic stock present on the isles before the Saxons even came. These men where, however, for all intents and purposes Anglo-Saxons, English, except that had British ancestry rather Frisian/Saxon/Scandinavian ancestry. A good number likely had both.

The Welsh were the same people as these new "British Saxons", same blood. Except they had remained independent of Anglo-Saxon rule by and large.

It's an extremely unknown and complex bit of history. Fundamental in the making of these Isles though. Would love to see some Celto-Saxon units in the game.

**Godz_Mercenary** · March 06, 2015, 11:18 PM

Good old Wales and the Welsh in general. Always loved how they think they are different to the English but I always see them as always having been the same blood/stock etc as us English. Scotland, yeah they got a case, they there own people but Wales your English period.

**Sharpe** · March 06, 2015, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Godz_Mercenary

Good old Wales and the Welsh in general. Always loved how they think they are different to the English but I always see them as always having been the same blood/stock etc as us English. Scotland, yeah they got a case, they there own people but Wales your English period.

Genetically the British Isles are fairly homogeneous, it's cultural differences (which are not massive really) that make each country unique from each other.

**SteelCityCaesar** · March 07, 2015, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sharpe

Most of the native Britons became "Anglo Saxons" and in turn the English today, I.E adopted Saxon culture, their Germanic language etc. That was the nature of the conquest, it was as much a cultural replacement and hegemonic conquest as it was military. The natives that were indeed driven out were likely the military elite and their loyalists. The idea that 50,000 -100,000 Saxons, Jutes and Angles could eliminate/drive out a native population of around 5 million is absurd. That would have set the British Isles back hundreds of years of population growth.

In 1066 when Harold faced William there is a good chance that 70-90% of the Saxon army was descended from the Briton Celtic stock and pre-Celtic neolithic stock present on the isles before the Saxons even came. These men where, however, for all intents and purposes Anglo-Saxons, English, except that had British ancestry rather Frisian/Saxon/Scandinavian ancestry. A good number likely had both.

The Welsh were the same people as these new "British Saxons", same blood. Except they had remained independent of Anglo-Saxon rule by and large.

It's an extremely unknown and complex bit of history. Fundamental in the making of these Isles though. Would love to see some Celto-Saxon units in the game.

Don't get me wrong, not saying the Anglo-Saxons completely misplaced the native population, more that the Welsh were what became of the native Britains living in non Saxon lands. I agree, would love to see all these factions expanded on and that whole period is ripe for a DLC campaign.

**pratolano** · March 07, 2015, 05:41 PM

I'd be so on board with a DLC of this kind. Fascinating stuff.

**Glycerius** · March 07, 2015, 06:56 PM

A fleshed out Romano British would more than represent Wales. Latin gravestones and other Latin inscriptions continued to be made long after the time covered in the game, while Roman sites like Venta Silurii or Caerwent remained in use. A Roman identity was of significance to Wales with usurper Magnus Maximus gaining quite a place in Welsh legends while in history his only claim to fame was his execution of Priscillian as a heretic. A Romano British faction in west Britain and maybe too in Amorica where many settled as refugees or federates of Magnus Maximus, would be excellent.