Pikemen Problems

[McCarronXLD]

There seems to be a lot of threads on Pikemen on the DeI forums. Rightly so as it is a hotly debated balance issue, and a tricky one.

My issue today is more in the sense of a bug report I suppose, or an animation finger pointing. I swapped back and forth between DeI and vanilla to make sure I wasn't crazy. In DeI when Pikemen get into combat (and are in Pikemen phalanx) the ones who are not attacking will "wiggle" back and forth as if their animation is bugging out. They do not do this in vanilla.

The next part of this post is more for my own modifications rather than something I would impose on DeI. How do I go about returning Pikemen to vanilla in the sense of how much distance they created between themselves and their opponent? Or at least, making it more noticable than it is in DeI. At the moment I've noticed Pikemen get pushed back and the opposing unit gets messily into the Pikemen's formation, sitting on top of the pikes as if they are not even there.

[KAM 2150]

Distance should be as it is or even shorter. Vanilla distance caused pikes to be OP as they would never get hit.

We do not want this ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimIMZHNRVI

[Zonac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimIMZHNRVI

LOL! I can't even remember this because I don't play vanilla since ars gratia artis! Now you remembered me why KAM

[Magas of Cyrene]

Distance should be as it is or even shorter. Vanilla distance caused pikes to be OP as they would never get hit.

We do not want this ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimIMZHNRVI

True enough

Though to be fair, charging a pike phalanx head on has no chance of success no matter the opposition.

[ThatWhichThinks]

Distance should be as it is or even shorter. Vanilla distance caused pikes to be OP as they would never get hit.

We do not want this ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimIMZHNRVI

I love this video. It reminds me that even when TW games don't do "historical accuracy" they can at least fall back on wacky, hilarious fun.

[Zanze]

They really didn't learn their lesson in Rome1? Where a single levy pike unit can stop an entire army if sitting on a bridge?

[McCarronXLD]

Hah! That video was great KAM. I don't think I ever experienced that. What about the animation bug though? Is that a known thing?

[Maetharin]

We could revert their reach and animations back to vanilla, look by how much their combat potential rises (in percents maybe?),
and then adjust their stats downwards, until the desired efficiency gets achieved.

If the vanilla Phalanxes work so much better than DeI ones, I see no reason to not use their animations.

Best regards

[KAM 2150]

No, vanilla reach and animations is the sole reason why they do not work! Taking their stats down will not solve it, but will break for example auto resolve of AI recruitment. With vanilla stuff, even levy pikes won't die frontally and that is simply BS. Not to mention dozens of other balancing and realism problems due to CA phalanx being ubreakable.

[Maetharin]

Are they that much overpowered? Wow it´s been a while since I´ve played Vanilla, so i wouldn´t know^^

What causes the Phalanxes to wiggle about? If it is the shorter reach, maybe a compromise could be reached...
Like, the better trained a Phalanx is, the longer it´s reach?

IMO an elite or professional Phalanx should be nigh unbreakable from the front,
but as vulnerable from the flank as their levy counterparts.

BTW, KAM, how historical are Thorax Phalangites actually?
If i remember correctly, they take over the role of the line Phalanx from the Phalangitai after the Thorax reform has been reached.
But at the time of the reform, didn´t they already forgoe the Phalanx in favor of Thorakitai?
Just getting my facts straight, I´ve never actually read about thorax pikemen.

Best regards

[KAM 2150]

I have no wiggle in my units or at least it is very rare. If any, spacing should be there to blame, not the reach. There are no direct sources for Thorax phalanx as the term Thorax is not exaclty linked with chain armour is it is now in Rome 2 mods. Thorakiati could be also a full unit wearing bronze cuirasses. Eventhough, after suffering losses at the hands of Romans and adopting their style, Phalanx was still present in Hellenic armies.

Also remember how this game works, if you make unit weak only from flanks then player will NEVER be able to lose with those units as AI 95% of time attacks frontally. Pike phalanx need to be also possible to rout frontally as those formations were only working as long as they were intact. Just crawl under the pikes, stuff a guy or two in the leg or stomach and boom, strom the gap.

[Maetharin]

I don´t think it went that easy when taking on a phalanx, but yeah you´re right. Levy and semi-professionals should be defeatable from the front.
But Professionals and Elites? Not IMO, but hey, you are the modder^^

And if the AI properly handled flank guarding and could perform a refused flank, it could play out the strong hellenic cavalry!
But alas, I´m prepared to win easily against the AI if it´s historical^^
Back then Generals just didn´t have as much control over their armies as us players.

[KAM 2150]

But professionals and elites are unbeatable from the front I made pikes so that they will beat all units of their own tier and since there is no rank higher then elite (I use ranks from 1 to 4), hence frontally pikes are best units in the game

[Maetharin]

They are unbeatable from the front, you are right, but they don´t look pretty whilst doing so.They lack elegance.
Nah just kidding, they look horrendously stupid while wiggleling about, but they are effective!

How about adjusting their attack speed? AFAIK melee units can´t reach them because they get either killed or bounced back by their attacks,
but if we reduce their attack speed, wouldn´t that give a unit with enough defensive powere enough time to advance on them?
Or are they just generally blocking the enemy from getting to them? In that case, yeah, major c*ck up CA xD

[McCarronXLD]

My elite pikes get beaten from the front rather frequently actually, by Oathsworn or Roman Infantry. Balance aside I'd just like to get rid of the wiggling. What has changed between DeI and Vanilla that causes that wiggling?

[KAM 2150]

Tighter formations probably.

[Maetharin]

do you mean tighter in width or depth?

in the video you posted they didn´t wiggle about, yet still held a quite tight formation, so this can´t be the only reason, can it?

[KAM 2150]

Spacing might be too tight, but like I said, I thin I never saw them wiggle.

[Ygraine]

Spacing might be too tight, but like I said, I thin I never saw them wiggle.

Why do the pikemen often go "into" the enemy with their pikes up if you tell them to attack? Instead of approaching slowly with pikes down to keep the enemy at bay.

I've also seen them "wiggle" many times, on and off.


I know Sabean Nobles are overpowered already and complained about it before - but really, I can't even keep them at bay in melee in a tight street frontally with my white shield pikemen. You've obviously made the distance way too short. My pikemen are getting slaughtered from the front (they were standing still with pikes down when the Sabeans walked in - not even charged into them). This is normal battle difficulty.

[KAM 2150]

Ask CA about it.