Elephants too strong against AI! Ruins this great mod!

[auboy]

You can literally just slice through the AI troops like butter with elephants in this mod. Rinse repeat rinse repeat. As Carthage with four units of them to start forget about it. I can't play this mod until this is fixed. It is too easy and ruins the immersion!

[User29]

Javelins, Arrows, and Slings don't put them down? A strong Hoplite/Pikemen unit won't annhilate them but it stops them in their tracks and can eventually kill them too.

You're not really saying you charge front end into battle and get out scot free?

[Ygraine]

The cheapest crappy peltast group can totally decimate elephants! It's not the elephants fault if the AI isn't using its peltasts on them

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Isn't it kind of immersion ruining to be using elephants all the time in the first place?

[KAM 2150]

Elephants work the same for quite long time, haven't been buffed up since last 3-4 threads about how weak and useless they are.

[Mithridates_Eupator]

Elephants work the same for quite long time, haven't been buffed up since last 3-4 threads about how weak and useless they are.

Yeah, this is my experience. When elephants go berserk, they just stand in one spot and fence units with their tusks instead of trampling them. I rarely get a 100 kills.

[rjacko10]

I am not surprised. It took about 5 spear units to take down half an elephant unit. Should have been an easy win, but the elephants destroyed my army. Costly victory.

[ThatWhichThinks]

Yeah, if you use elephants wisely and take out their counters (i.e. use archers or cav to take out enemy archers, don't let your elephants get surrounded, etc.) they are very powerful. And, for their cost, they should be! But, they are easy to lose as well if they start running amok or get surrounded.

[Cambion]

You can literally just slice through the AI troops like butter with elephants in this mod. Rinse repeat rinse repeat. As Carthage with four units of them to start forget about it. I can't play this mod until this is fixed. It is too easy and ruins the immersion!

This isnt an arcade mod. Use them in a historical fashion and with historical availibility (meaning no more than one unit per army). Either in front of your line in a headlong charge against the enemy line, as an anti-cavalry screen or against other elephants. In all cases there are not OP and in the first case they will get killed against a strong AI force while achieving what they are intended to: Sowing confusion.
Elephants werent good for anything else, historically. No flanking, no circle charges. Thats immersion.

[CristoTheVicious]

I fought many battles where AI had 1-2 units of elephants and it wasn't a big deal at all. 2 units of cheap/garrison spearmen can handle standard elephants and any peasant with javelin will just murder those poor creatures. So nerfing elephants won't make any sense whatsoever, AI will just be less of a challenge.

If You feel like this unit abuses the poor AI, make house rules and restrain Yourself from using them or just have them as a last resort unit.

[auboy]

I fought many battles where AI had 1-2 units of elephants and it wasn't a big deal at all. 2 units of cheap/garrison spearmen can handle standard elephants and any peasant with javelin will just murder those poor creatures. So nerfing elephants won't make any sense whatsoever, AI will just be less of a challenge.

If You feel like this unit abuses the poor AI, make house rules and restrain Yourself from using them or just have them as a last resort unit.

Not talking about fighting AI elephants. Talking about the AI fighting a player with elephants. The AI never uses javelin units well at all and if they do they can't use them against my elephants. Put all elephants on the outer sides. Attack head on with troops. Come around back with elephants. Walk over every AI unit and they will run. Easy peasy everytime. Lose a few Elephants. Regenerate next turn. Level them up to be even more indestructible. Rinse and repeat....

[ThatWhichThinks]

Not talking about fighting AI elephants. Talking about the AI fighting a player with elephants. The AI never uses javelin units well at all and if they do they can't use them against my elephants. Put all elephants on the outer sides. Attack head on with troops. Come around back with elephants. Walk over every AI unit and they will run. Easy peasy everytime. Lose a few Elephants. Regenerate next turn. Level them up to be even more indestructible. Rinse and repeat....

The problem is that the AI does not deal well with flanking attempts from anything, including elephants. The same strategy will work with shock cav if the AI can't react to your flanking attempts. Have you tried using Kam's experimental battles mod or just the submod that increases AI vision? That helps the AI to properly identify and prioritize targets, and AI archers and javelinmen often target my elephants if I am not careful when using those. I think Kam may have also tweaked damage from infantry so that elephants are not as durable (at least they do not seem as durable to me).

Honestly I just have not encountered this problem. In my experience (mostly using Indian elephants as Parthia), unless I attack from the rear or attack an isolated unit, my elephants eventually get overwhelmed and massacred and, since they are running amok most of the time, I cannot withdraw them from the fight. If anything, maybe the run amok threshold could be tweaked since I rarely see it trigger with experienced elephant units with good morale.

[auboy]

The problem is that the AI does not deal well with flanking attempts from anything, including elephants. The same strategy will work with shock cav if the AI can't react to your flanking attempts. Have you tried using Kam's experimental battles mod or just the submod that increases AI vision? That helps the AI to properly identify and prioritize targets, and AI archers and javelinmen often target my elephants if I am not careful when using those. I think Kam may have also tweaked damage from infantry so that elephants are not as durable (at least they do not seem as durable to me).

Honestly I just have not encountered this problem. In my experience (mostly using Indian elephants as Parthia), unless I attack from the rear or attack an isolated unit, my elephants eventually get overwhelmed and massacred and, since they are running amok most of the time, I cannot withdraw them from the fight. If anything, maybe the run amok threshold could be tweaked since I rarely see it trigger with experienced elephant units with good morale.

I use KAMS slower battles sub mod. Does he have another battle mod? Ok I see it now thanks I will try it! I rarely use my elephants in a direct assault. Flanking only. I agree the AI cannot handle flanking however with cavalry I have to at least flank and hit in the rear many times before the AI routs. With the elephants usually once is enough. Never bothers me if they run amok they still squish all the AI units...

[CristoTheVicious]

Not talking about fighting AI elephants. Talking about the AI fighting a player with elephants. The AI never uses javelin units well at all and if they do they can't use them against my elephants. Put all elephants on the outer sides. Attack head on with troops. Come around back with elephants. Walk over every AI unit and they will run. Easy peasy everytime. Lose a few Elephants. Regenerate next turn. Level them up to be even more indestructible. Rinse and repeat....

I think You should re-read my post. I wrote there that there is no point in nerfing elephants for the player, cause it will also affect AI, who is already really poor with them. So I will repeat again, stop using elephants or just use them when You are in trouble/tough battle.

[auboy]

I think You should re-read my post. I wrote there that there is no point in nerfing elephants for the player, cause it will also affect AI, who is already really poor with them. So I will repeat again, stop using elephants or just use them when You are in trouble/tough battle.

Ah I see what you are saying. Well I would rather not have advantages over the AI than the AI not be good at using something...

[Alexandre Lange]

You think elephants are OP? Try Molossian Dogs. Just two units, you don't need four. Throw them, retreat and watch: the enemy will reach you at pieces, and the dogs (all of them) will still at their necks while you murder the remains. I have reduced them from 76 to 18 per unit and they still get 300 kills (with no or almost no losses) per battle, easily. It's not DeI fault: it's how bad AI deal (or don't) with certain units. The solution? Don't abuse them. You certainly slaugther AI elephants with cheap javelinmen, right?

[LordJiggum]

Stop using 4 units of elephants...

[FlashHeart07]

There is almost certainly always some kind of submod or work being done to avoid unbalanced units, bugs, flawed game mechanics for DeI and if not it is most likely hardcoded. Just ask for it or take a look around the submod forum or the main forum and see if there isnt something that might solve whatever your problem might be. My concern for the mod though it might be silly and certainly not limited to this thread is that thread titles like this "Ruins this great mod" and "It destroys everything", "The mod is unplayable" might keep newcomers away or give them doubts. DeI is one of the most fleshed out mods there is and is constanly being updated, tested, tweaked or have new stuff added. I say this with the greatest of love to all who play and contribute to the mod and this forum but just take note that there are people spending countless hours of their free time on this.

[auboy]

There is almost certainly always some kind of submod or work being done to avoid unbalanced units, bugs, flawed game mechanics for DeI and if not it is most likely hardcoded. Just ask for it or take a look around the submod forum or the main forum and see if there isnt something that might solve whatever your problem might be. My concern for the mod though it might be silly and certainly not limited to this thread is that thread titles like this "Ruins this great mod" and "It destroys everything", "The mod is unplayable" might keep newcomers away or give them doubts. DeI is one of the most fleshed out mods there is and is constanly being updated, tested, tweaked or have new stuff added. I say this with the greatest of love to all who play and contribute to the mod and this forum but just take note that there are people spending countless hours of their free time on this.

Oh I completely agree its the best mod out there. The elephants are just my biggest issue. I am using KAMs battle mod though and things are much better now...Thanks KAM! Love your battle mod for Atilla too!

[geala]

Umm, FlashHeart07, your words might make me reconsider perhaps not to post my planned "DeI unplayable + utter crap!!!!!!!!...!!!!!!!!...Illyrian hoplites have 1 armor too much!!!!!"-thread (in capitals of course) on Steam and elsewhere.