i accept the huns having good cavalry...NOT the best infantry in the game!??

[shnukshnuk]

every time i vs these guys online even if i have a balanced force i get destroyed. even if i take out there cav they have those bosporun guys the infantry that destroys everything and even give viking huscarls and marines a run for their money, they really really need to balance those infantry a bit because at the present time, the moment someone chooses to play as the huns you know you have lost. because they literally have no weaknesses.


also on another topic i find the viking factions have very poor choice in archer/ranged units as well as cavalry. this can be particularly devastating online as most armies will attempt to hammer you with arrows before cavalry charging you to death, any advice on how to play as the Jutes or Danes would be appreciated. im a 10 year veteran of total war and getting smashed online :I

so as i say. whats your thoughts on the huns? any advice on using the viking factions to their best?
thanks guys

[Heathen Storm]

Can't comment on the bit about the Huns but to use the Viking factions effectively against armies with a lot of missiles, use your shield wall!!!​ It's there for a reason

[shnukshnuk]

yeah but i find they still become pin cushions

[Heathen Storm]

yeah but i find they still become pin cushions

Really? I've found shield wall to be pretty effective against arrows... Just watch out for javelins (naturally).

[prithupaul]

Shield Walls may be effective against a couple of volleys but against a continuous barrage (especially against Hunnic mounted archers with 1000 ammunition) it wont hold long.

[Bebecho]

Jutes army3-5 pikes, 6-8 Nordic Horse Lords, 3-5 Nordic Hurlers or Nordic Bows - Hurlers are better, 2-3 Huscarls + some Hirdmen or Nordic Warriors. Push forward. Hurlers shooting eneemy missile, 2 pikes support cavalry 2 cover middle. Huscarls and Nordic Warriors at the back, Hirdmen behind pikes. pin enemy calvalry. Rush enemy infantry by Huscarls - Nordic Warriors, support Cavalry by sword infantry. Try to catch enemy missle. Kill general and win Huns army 6 spear infantry - steppe levy and steppe spearmen, 3-4 Steppe bows - use flaming arrows vs enemy cavalry, 2-4 Hunnic Mounted Bows , 2-4 Steppe Mounted Brigands, 3-4 Uar Warriors, some Shock Cavalry. Rush your infantry and try use Mounted Bows to weaken enemy cav. Use spear infantry to cover infantry and cavalry. Steppe levy in the middle to catch enemy arrows. Try to rush enemy infantry using uars. Disrupt enemy cav with your horse bows and push enemy cav by steppe spearmen. Delay cav encounter. if you win infantry fight you could win battle. Use one cav to catch enemy missile.

[Kjertesvein]

The Hunnic roster have one of the strongest infantry, while their cavalry is one, if not the most underwhelming cavalry in the game. The thing with TW:Attila is that heavy melee cavalry dominate all other units in the game. A cheap western cavalry can obliterate most infantry in the game, just like barbarian swords in Rome 2 beat everything. A few key points: The Uar Warriors are one of the best units to kill infantry because of the hidden stat 20 bonus vs Infantry, what they are bad at is absobing missiles and they gets obliterated by heavy melee horses. The

Here are some good videos by Max:



This is a good shock build from the Jutes:
The main goal of the fear/shock build is to take advantage of the viking's passive fear ability with the high charge bonus of Huscarls and Norse Horse Lords. Once the enemy unit have sustained casualties, the enemy will get a huge moral drop, the added fear effect will accelerate the enemies rout mechanism.


What you'll see here is 5 - 6 Nordic Horse Lords. These units dominate all other cavalry except the Tagmata. They are the only cavalry with a fear passive and they have Headhunt (they don't rout for 30 seconds, which you active once the unit is about to die from 3 other cavalry. Very useful when you need to prolong the engagement.). These cavalry units will start the engagement with the enemy and disrupt formations. Hirdmen are just behind them to assist the cavalry in prolong engagements and give them killing potential versus spears.



The pike units are there to stop enemy cavalry charges (duh!), but also absorb the charge from enemy infantry. They are disposable. You can do this fine with 3 pike units in a spaghetti line. Once the pikes have made contact, you send in your Huscarls. If you managed to get a good charge, then you have won. Nothing beats the charging huscarls. The only problem you may find here is enemy skirmishers, so it's paramount that you screen as much damage with your pikes and cavalry as possible, because the Huscarls can't absorb it.


A modified version could be to drop 1 pike unit, and recruit 2 Nordic Band. They have deadly precursors which decimate units will low missile block chance (Uar Warriors) and are excellent meat shields for to absorb projectiles and nullifies the enemies ability to get a good charge off. The second alternative is to change the 2 Nordic Band units to Nordic Bows. One with Flaming Shots and one with Whistling Shots to accelerate the scare process, but you sacrifice meat shields. These two units only costs 120 - 130.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Last point I'll make is this, unlock the debug camera so that you don't get overwhelmed. (you can zoom out as far as you want and you get a solid-easy-to-see overview of the battlefield). Good luck and have fun!

~Wille

[Ritterlichvon86]

Afaik the game is balanced for SP campaign, and there the Huns usually come with just a small amount of infantry. Hence the Hunnic infantry must be as strong as it is. That does throw off online battle balance, indeed.

Since the outrage against CA's expansion of multiplayer in Shogun 2 (Avatar + patched-in classic MP modus), they seem to have resolved to get the game working best for the large overwhelming number of players who are playing the campaign. With TW Arena around the corner and its focus on MP balance, to which further talk would break the NDA, the best bet for the current MP community is to go and balance max-amplitude units by ourselves through an "MP tournament balance mod" package.

[Påsan]

Huscarls destroy Uar Warriors and cost significantly less. Royal Huscarls probably the best infantry killer in the game for a modest 775 gold.

However unlike Tagmata cavalry they have obvious weaknesses like missiles and getting charged by tagmata cavalry.

[Osbot]

Huscarls destroy Uar Warriors and cost significantly less. Royal Huscarls probably the best infantry killer in the game for a modest 775 gold.

However unlike Tagmata cavalry they have obvious weaknesses like missiles and getting charged by tagmata cavalry.

No they don't. Run the tests yourself. If you run your Uar Chosen 2 ranks deep, yes you are correct. However, why would you ever string out the strongest sustained combat unit in the entire game so 75% of the unit is killed on contact with a shock infantry unit.

Run the tests yourself. Keep Chosen Uar in their default arrangement, charge them with a spagetti line of Huscarls. Watch as the Huscarls get mercilessly slaughtered. I'm very disappointed with the online community. It's like nobody understands counters outside of the meta game. Yes the meta game with units wrapping around promotes spaghetti lines. However, if your unit has no chance to win as a spaghetti line, why would you ever even contemplate that. The ERE Hereiteae (spelling???) are actually even better than Huscarls, and they lose to Chosen Uars in the same manner as well.

It is the most fundamental concept. If the enemy has a significant advantage (shock infantry in spaghetti lines) don't indulge it. Do not try to match it. Spaghetti line your cavalry, pull your own infantry back into deeper formations. Allow them to charge your deeper formation. The advantage of shock infantry and shock cavalry is the charge. Deeper formation means less casualties off of the charge. Once their shock infantry is committed, counter charge with your own shock units. Yes their line infantry in spaghetti lines will beat your deep ranked line infantry, but the battles in these games are not won and lost by line infantry (usually). They are won by shock infantry and shock cavalry. Take their battle winner away, and use yours better. Your line infantry in deep ranks will last long enough for you to do your own work.

[crowe15]

Idk about German/Nordic rosters

But as the Romans, Bosphan Infantry are not a problem vs my Comitatensis

However, those ing Uar Chosen Warriors, they're .

[Påsan]

No they don't. Run the tests yourself. If you run your Uar Chosen 2 ranks deep, yes you are correct. However, why would you ever string out the strongest sustained combat unit in the entire game so 75% of the unit is killed on contact with a shock infantry unit.

Run the tests yourself. Keep Chosen Uar in their default arrangement, charge them with a spagetti line of Huscarls. Watch as the Huscarls get mercilessly slaughtered. I'm very disappointed with the online community. It's like nobody understands counters outside of the meta game. Yes the meta game with units wrapping around promotes spaghetti lines. However, if your unit has no chance to win as a spaghetti line, why would you ever even contemplate that. The ERE Hereiteae (spelling???) are actually even better than Huscarls, and they lose to Chosen Uars in the same manner as well.

It is the most fundamental concept. If the enemy has a significant advantage (shock infantry in spaghetti lines) don't indulge it. Do not try to match it. Spaghetti line your cavalry, pull your own infantry back into deeper formations. Allow them to charge your deeper formation. The advantage of shock infantry and shock cavalry is the charge. Deeper formation means less casualties off of the charge. Once their shock infantry is committed, counter charge with your own shock units. Yes their line infantry in spaghetti lines will beat your deep ranked line infantry, but the battles in these games are not won and lost by line infantry (usually). They are won by shock infantry and shock cavalry. Take their battle winner away, and use yours better. Your line infantry in deep ranks will last long enough for you to do your own work.

Why would you randomly assume I use spaghetti lines?




Basic Huskarls beating chosen Uar warriors. Yay.


Vs Royal Hucarls the Chosen Uars obviously got thrashed.






Royal Huscarls also beat the Varangian Guard placeholder the eastern roman have.

[Osbot]

Why would you randomly assume I use spaghetti lines?

Rofl

Guy says "why would you assume I use spaghetti lines" then links videos using spaghetti lines.

[Påsan]

Rofl

Guy says "why would you assume I use spaghetti lines" then links videos using spaghetti lines.

I did not make the video and spaghetti lines are 1-2 lines deep not 3.


However I did exactly as you said, Royal Huscarls in their wide formation, Uars in a block. Huscarls won comfortably with 69 men left.

If both units are in a block, Uars won with nine men left and the huscarls routed with twenty due to lower morale.



It is beside the point though, the Huns have no business fielding hunnic infantry this good. Its ridiculous.

[wulfgar610]

every time i vs these guys online even if i have a balanced force i get destroyed. even if i take out there cav they have those bosporun guys the infantry that destroys everything and even give viking huscarls and marines a run for their money, they really really need to balance those infantry a bit because at the present time, the moment someone chooses to play as the huns you know you have lost. because they literally have no weaknesses.

That's quite true, in general the later Huns fielded a large body of not so great infantry. Basically poor guys who they pressed into service as expendables. One half of their force was Huns and their most highly regarded allies, and the other half who they treated like trash and used as expendables. Generally mounted tribes like the Huns feel little more than contempt for infantry. Their best infantry was most likely dismounted cavalry.

[Princeps]

That's quite true, in general the later Huns fielded a large body of not so great infantry. Basically poor guys who they pressed into service as expendables

There is no way of knowing this with any degree of certainty. The steppes breed hard men. Their military potential is a salient theme running across the whole of premodern and early modern history.

[KozaK101]

Hun cav is pretty poor. Strangely thats the advantage you have against them. At the moment horse archers are a bad choice generally.
I would like to see a re focus to thier cavalry.
It is also strange that they have the "White Hun" units (Uars). I think they should have put the White huns in as a seperate faction to nerf how strong the sassanids are rather than shoe horn them into the Hun roster in a way that makes their infantry arguably too strong considering what the faction should be about.

And the huns probably did not fight wholly like their ancestors at Chalons. After all they were using stable bred western horses alot etc. and they had their allies providing most of their forces, those being germans.
Look at how the Alans fought at Chalons. Basically a shield wall and not long before that they were a steppe people.

[Påsan]

Hun cav is pretty poor. Strangely thats the advantage you have against them. At the moment horse archers are a bad choice generally.
I would like to see a re focus to thier cavalry.
It is also strange that they have the "White Hun" units (Uars). I think they should have put the White huns in as a seperate faction to nerf how strong the sassanids are rather than shoe horn them into the Hun roster in a way that makes their infantry arguably too strong considering what the faction should be about.

And the huns probably did not fight wholly like their ancestors at Chalons. After all they were using stable bred western horses alot etc. and they had their allies providing most of their forces, those being germans.
Look at how the Alans fought at Chalons. Basically a shield wall and not long before that they were a steppe people.

Yeah the Uar warriors are strange. Both in their inclusion as infantry and their super-powerful stats. (Why would the white huns be such powerful infantry?) And I agree about the Sassanids. They have a cakewalk at the moment.

[swoosh so]

They're definitely beatable maybe your not as good as your opponents? That's maybe not the case tho high attack units are always easier to use initially but there's tons of builds out there to take out the huns. Never had problems dealing with huns and in our aggony clan battles were always facing strong players. UAR warriors are strong bit you have to look at the whole roster they're nowhere near the imbalance of tagmata for example, BTW in the new dlc there's a spear unit that can beat UAR if used correctly. Also a previous poster is right hardly any players use shieldwall right and get mined by easier to use high attack units. But just cause players haven't attained a good level yet does not mean an easy to use high attack unit is op.

[Ritterlichvon86]

Since we are talking Jutes vs Huns here: Well, you do not counter Royal Huscarls with armored melee. Just shoot them with Horse Archers. Just like Tagmata cav are hard-countered by HA too. Yep, those Horse Archers branded by others as being "useless".

Some people here complained about Hunnic infantry being too strong, others said they get wrecked, some say Horse Archers suck, I say they have very good useability.

I guess this is a testiment to that Attila is pretty well balanced, and most people just spread wrong information about this or that. Too many rely on Youtuber's lecturing comments nowadays, not thinking, trying, finding out for themselves, not seeing that much of what is told there is simply wrong, because the tests are based on false premises. Simple as that.

For example, while Maximus Decimus' videos are interesting to watch once in a while if you're not at home and cannot check out factions for yourselves, but way more often than not I have seen him use units wrongly. Any, and I mean every single video, that compares 2 kinds of units head-on without regarding their place and role in an army-composition, is simply useless in my opinion. While I like his videos, subscribed and thumbed up many of his videos on other topics, I just see how uncritical people are to his conclusions -> one guy even quoted a Youtube video in direct talk with me to prove his point, as if YT videos are somehow a ressource of authority and always right. Just as it happened in this thread in post #16. It doesn't prove any point. I still appreciate many of his videos though, I hope you're getting me right.


Moreover, everytime I see someone bring an allegedly "OP build" copy&pasted from Youtube, I just laugh. It is the Min-Max builds with reserves, that make me sh!t my pants.



Edit: Fixed spelling. their their their their their their!