Turkey reserving Aegean airspace - Greece making international protest

[alhoon]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w...03/2015_547771

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...n-sea-29312713

Turkish source:

But there are Turkish sources which also mention the reference numbers: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/28334701.asp

I'll try to be as objective and brief as possible in the OP. In following posts, I'll be more vocal.

The gist: Turkey informed Greece yesterday that they will reserve a large part of the Aegean airspace for 10 months to use for military maneuvers.
Greece says the move intrudes into Greek airspace, interferes with traffic to two regional airports and affects two international traffic routes.
We plan to take the matter to nearly every authority there is.


Personally, I believe Turkey violates Greek sovereignty and such acts (perhaps to take the public's eye from Erdogan's practices) do not help the region.

EDIT: Turkey seems to have canceled the whole thing, at least to a degree.
I'll give international links as soon as possible.
Greek source: http://www.kathimerini.gr/805644/art...oklhtikh-notam

[Stavroforos]

Turkey keeps violating Greek airspace and territorial sovereignty. Let's not-Garb.

[alhoon]

Exactly that. If you read the Greek sources, they decided to reserve as far as Limnos!
I say we reserve the Dardanelles for 25 months, for "naval maneuvers" and see how Turkey likes navy ships disrupting commerce.

[TASS07]

Exactly that. If you read the Greek sources, they decided to reserve as far as Limnos!
I say we reserve the Dardanelles for 25 months, for "naval maneuvers" and see how Turkey likes navy ships disrupting commerce.

"If you read the Greek sources": I am not going to defend the Turkish here, I'd well trust them to violate somebody elses Air Space. But given how this is a dwelling source of dispute between Turkey and Greece for a very long time, I am not going to condemn Turkey based on Greek sources.

PS: I'll be back on the topic when I read a little on the events

[Stavroforos]

"If you read the Greek sources": I am not going to defend the Turkish here, I'd well trust them to violate somebody elses Air Space. But given how this is a dwelling source of dispute between Turkey and Greece for a very long time, I am not going to condemn Turkey based on Greek sources.

PS: I'll be back on the topic when I read a little on the events

Great, so I suppose we shouldn't trust any Eastern European sources when it comes to Russian news.

[TASS07]

Great, so I suppose we shouldn't trust any Eastern European sources when it comes to Russian news.

Certainly we shouldn't easily trust Ukrainian sources and treat other sources with caution.

Where it's airspace above the Aegean I am going to treat any reaction from Greece or Turkey with caution. It's complicated and has almost come down to military escalation before. I couldn't find anything on it yet on English or German mainstream media. It would be interesting to know which area in detail that NOTAM outlines for a start.

[6th Vigil]

Don't worry we use Western European sources when it comes to Russian news.

[alhoon]

I doubt the English or German media would care about Turkey deciding to use our airspace as if it's their backyard.
Let's see how they would react if Russia decided to use half the Baltic sea for military exercises, including parts of Estonia's and Latvia's airspace, without asking for permission

[Odenat]

First of all, NOTAM is a notice filed with an aviation authority to alert aircraft pilots of potential hazards along a flight route or at a location that could affect the safety of the flight. So it's not a reservation, it's just a notice. Turkey did not reserved any airspace, it only informed civilian pilots that it'll do air maneuvers between these dates. Can you please update your OP?

The reason for these air maneuvers (and therefore the NOTAM) is clear and i'm really happy that you opened this thread here.

We issued the NOTAM after new Greek defense minister visited Kardak island with a military helicopter on 30 January! Can you just explain what was he doing on those disputed islands?

This may came as a shock to our Greek friends; Aegean does not belong to them.

[Garbarsardar]

Turkey has now withdrawn the NOTAM, entirely. The annulment happened in two stages, first they corrected the inclusion of part of a very non-disputed island (Lemnos) and then they cancelled the whole shebang. Probably a mistake due to some Apple map app. they're using, my guess. (It just happened, for the moment only sources in Greek...sorry-http://www.kathimerini.gr/805644/article/epikairothta/politikh/h-toyrkia-akyrwse-thn-proklhtikh-notam)

[alhoon]

First of all, NOTAM is a notice filed with an aviation authority to alert aircraft pilots of potential hazards along a flight route or at a location that could affect the safety of the flight. So it's not a reservation, it's just a notice. Turkey did not reserved any airspace, it only informed civilian pilots that it'll do air maneuvers between these dates. Can you please update your OP?

The reason for these air maneuvers (and therefore the NOTAM) is clear and i'm really happy that you opened this thread here.

We issued the NOTAM after new Greek defense minister visited Kardak island with a military helicopter on 30 January! Can you just explain what was he doing on those disputed islands?

This may came as a shock to our Greek friends; Aegean does not belong to them.

The source clearly identifies that Turkey reserves a large chunk of our airspace, giving out notices that they will do stuff there as if it's their backyard. Giving out a notice to civilian aircraft of "We will do military maneuvers over Aegean" without the agreement of the country that owns that airspace is a clear violation.

Also, this may come as a shock to you, but Athens FIR does belong to us, so does Limnos.

Turkey has now withdrawn the NOTAM, entirely. The annulment happened in two stages, first they corrected the inclusion of part of a very non-disputed island (Lemnos) and then they cancelled the whole shebang. Probably a mistake due to some Apple map app. they're using, my guess. (It just happened, for the moment only sources in Greek...sorry-http://www.kathimerini.gr/805644/article/epikairothta/politikh/h-toyrkia-akyrwse-thn-proklhtikh-notam)

Wait what?!?
They cancelled the whole thing?

[Roma_Victrix]

Turkey and Greece are both part of NATO; surely this is the act of a friendly ally.

[Mangalore]

Well, it's kind of nice this dispute started about someone making an open statement another country can object to instead of just violating someone's airspace with switched off transponders and nuclear capable bombers...

[alhoon]

Well, it's kind of nice this dispute started about someone making an open statement another country can object to instead of just violating someone's airspace with switched off transponders and nuclear capable bombers...

It's also nice that Turkey backed down when NATO called them on their ####.

[TASS07]

I doubt the English or German media would care about Turkey deciding to use our airspace as if it's their backyard.
Let's see how they would react if Russia decided to use half the Baltic sea for military exercises, including parts of Estonia's and Latvia's airspace, without asking for permission

Actually the media I read tends to report on Greek/Turkish Nato-internal shenanigans, and yes it is mainstream You're right to they'll not report on in from the Greek viewpoint. Why should they? And why would that improve coverage?

The source clearly identifies that Turkey reserves a large chunk of our airspace, giving out notices that they will do stuff there as if it's their backyard. Giving out a notice to civilian aircraft of "We will do military maneuvers over Aegean" without the agreement of the country that owns that airspace is a clear violation.

I thought the very core of the dispute is that Turkey and Greece disagree on the ownership?

Turkey and Greece are both part of NATO; surely this is the act of a friendly ally.

I don't get what you're trying to imply there, he looks like a perfectly nice guy on the pic

Well, it's kind of nice this dispute started about someone making an open statement another country can object to instead of just violating someone's airspace with switched off transponders and nuclear capable bombers...

I'm going to get some flak for daring to suggest this, but what really made it such a big affair is that Greece protested so loudly rather than just silently protesting on international channels.

Turkey has now withdrawn the NOTAM, entirely. The annulment happened in two stages, first they corrected the inclusion of part of a very non-disputed island (Lemnos) and then they cancelled the whole shebang. Probably a mistake due to some Apple map app. they're using, my guess. (It just happened, for the moment only sources in Greek...sorry-http://www.kathimerini.gr/805644/article/epikairothta/politikh/h-toyrkia-akyrwse-thn-proklhtikh-notam)

They cancelled the whole thing?

It's also nice that Turkey backed down when NATO called them on their ####.

Well if Turkey backed down that easily it kind of voids the whole aggressive motives implied..

[Braindead Colonel]

I thought the very core of the dispute is that Turkey and Greece disagree on the ownership?

Since around 1996, Turkey decided to dispute ownership of a number of Greek isles. Taking into account the fact that a number of those are inhabited, the only response such actions merit is a stern "f *** off", and the military readiness to back those words.

Unfortunately this is a problem that existed before, and will continue to exist long after Erdogan is gone. But, at least for the time being, he is a fitting mascot for Turkey's charades.

Here is the territory Turkey tried to reserve for military drills (airforce - navy).
p.s. the lightly-colored land is not Turkey.

[Odenat]

The source clearly identifies that Turkey reserves a large chunk of our airspace, giving out notices that they will do stuff there as if it's their backyard. Giving out a notice to civilian aircraft of "We will do military maneuvers over Aegean" without the agreement of the country that owns that airspace is a clear violation.

Also, this may come as a shock to you, but Athens FIR does belong to us, so does Limnos.

Of course if you use Greek sources, it'll say "reserve". You can easily check what a NOTAM is and post according to this information. If i use a Macedonian source saying Selanik belong historically to them, would i prove the point?

Since around 1996, Turkey decided to dispute ownership of a number of Greek isles. Taking into account the fact that a number of those are inhabited, the only response such actions merit is a stern "f *** off", and the military readiness to back those words.

Unfortunately this is a problem that existed before, and will continue to exist long after Erdogan is gone. But, at least for the time being, he is a fitting mascot for Turkey's charades.

Here is the territory Turkey tried to reserve for military drills (airforce - navy).
p.s. the lightly-colored land is not Turkey.

We all know that the current situation at Aegean could not continue. No other country on the world have other countries islands a few miles over their coasts. This situation only exists because Turkey was ultra-weak at the start of 20th century. So the islands were previously belonged to us, Greece declared war and invaded those islands and those islands was given to Greece by European powers.

Things are much different now. And Erdoğan have nothing to do with it. This matter is between Greece and Turkey. I understand why Greeks are afraid, but Aegean problem must be resolved. Either we can resolve it by a peaceful solution or ....

[JohnCarlo]

Well, it's kind of nice this dispute started about someone making an open statement another country can object to instead of just violating someone's airspace with switched off transponders and nuclear capable bombers...

No, international airspace isn't british airspace

the brit's empire is long gone, you can stop hoping

[Roma_Victrix]

Nothing to see here folks, move along. It's just Erdogan being Erdogan as usual.

[Border Patrol]

Even if Turkey were to continue on violating Greek airspace, what could they possibly do if Greece not so politely told them to off? NATO is a defensive alliance, not offensive. Shooting down an escort fighter over Greek airspace or God forbid a civilian airliner is what some might call a hostile act. Article 5, do not pass go, do not collect $200.