Nasal helms? Dark colors? Long ships?!

[Drahcir]

My apologies if this is in the wrong location.

But am I the only one bothered by how early they have nasal helms in game and have 8th and 9th cent equipment and naval vessels (Long ships?!) with the Saxons/Franks/Nordic folk?

Granted it looks good and is in my opinion very beautiful in design, but all the descriptions of equipment I have read and heard about the early Germanic people is very colorful. Pink, red, blue and many other bright colors used all the time in their clothes rather than the dull and dark colors we see in the game. It looks more akin to the fact the developers watched the show Vikings and said "Lets make everything look like them!" They prided themselves so strongly on following historical facts, but missed out one of the most blatant issues of time period being 300/400 years too early for most of the equipment and the coloring of said equipment if wrong. (Hell the Sutton Hoo helm is 7th Cent most likely! And the Valsgarde helms were mid late 6th!)

One example is that helm they are trying to pawn off as a make up band-aid for the delay in the long-beards flop DLC. (Another rant all together)


Now I ask if am I alone in this? Am I just crazy? Am I ranting for nothing? Please comment below, if you know more about this subject than I, please do share, I welcome the idea of being corrected! I say my rant out of ignorance mainly for the fact I cannot find anything about helms that they have in game showing up before the 6/7th cent! If there is such sources or examples of this equipment before that period, please do share!

Any-way! Cheers! Thanks!

Drahcir the Total Newb

[wulfgar610]

Long-ships that anything like the size and design features in the game probably never existed until the 10th century.

Something like this up to twice the length would have have been the best on offer to North Sea or Black Sea Germanics in the 5th century.



Germanics that established themselves in the Mediterranean like the Vandals certainly built efficient fleets but most likely used local design work. The Vandals conquered North Africa with the aid of fleets and repelled even the East Romans, so they must have had something quite capable in sea battles. The Goths built war-fleets as well in their established Roman kingdoms.

But the technical advances (true keel, concave waterline) that made the Great Drakkars efficient don't seem to have appeared until the 8th century at the earliest.

Bright dyes certainly existed, but cheap color fixatives didn't appear until early modern times. Generally colors would fade rapidly.

[Nikaa47]

Long-ships that anything like the size and design features in the game probably never existed until the 10th century.

Something like this up to twice the length would have have been the best on offer to North Sea or Black Sea Germanics in the 5th century.



Germanics that established themselves in the Mediterranean like the Vandals certainly built efficient fleets but most likely used local design work. The Vandals conquered North Africa with the aid of fleets and repelled even the East Romans, so they must have had something quite capable in sea battles. The Goths built war-fleets as well in their established Roman kingdoms.

But the technical advances (true keel, concave waterline) that made the Great Drakkars efficient don't seem to have appeared until the 8th century at the earliest.

Bright dyes certainly existed, but cheap color fixatives didn't appear until early modern times. Generally colors would fade rapidly.

Im not sure about the black sea but for the North and Baltic sea this is a wrong picture of the ships the germans used. Take a look on the nydam boat with its 23m length and no sails then you get a picture of the ships and how they were used.

[wulfgar610]

Im not sure about the black sea but for the North and Baltic sea this is a wrong picture of the ships the germans used. Take a look on the nydam boat with its 23m length and no sails then you get a picture of the ships and how they were used.

The above is based on Sutton Hoo which only had slighty more advanced construction. Experiments indicate that these designs were quite efficient sailors. so sails can't be ruled out. They do sport one feature, all these boats can move fast whether rowed or under sail, so were ideal for pirates. Best remember that in more recent ages of piracy, the pirates were using light vessels built for speed.

[Nikaa47]

The above is based on Sutton Hoo which only had slighty more advanced construction. Experiments indicate that these designs were quite efficient sailors. so sails can't be ruled out. They do sport one feature, all these boats can move fast whether rowed or under sail, so were ideal for pirates. Best remember that in more recent ages of piracy, the pirates were using light vessels built for speed.

Ah ok so the picture is the Sae Wylfing experiment. Im a bit sceptical about this test because originaly there were no indicators for a sail and in there experiment they only used sails because they didnt reconstruct it as 1:1 so no tests in rowing the boat. But doesnt matter you're right both nydam and sutton hoo were great longboats for quick landing because of their shape and low draught. Also there are sources like remains at the danubian delta which indicate that those were used for trade. So great allrounders and the base for the later Ships of Gokstad, Skudelev etc..

[wulfgar610]

Ah ok so the picture is the Sae Wylfing experiment. Im a bit sceptical about this test because originaly there were no indicators for a sail and in there experiment they only used sails because they didnt reconstruct it as 1:1 so no tests in rowing the boat. But doesnt matter you're right both nydam and sutton hoo were great longboats for quick landing because of their shape and low draught. Also there are sources like remains at the danubian delta which indicate that those were used for trade. So great allrounders and the base for the later Ships of Gokstad, Skudelev etc..

The Nydam ship lacks anything in the way of true keel which tends to rule out any sort of efficient sailing rig, but this is from a century prior to our period. Sutton Hoo's ship from more than a century after our period, has a rudimentary keel, which means it could have taken a sailing rig. It's possible 5th century saw more advanced designs. that could've used sails.

[Drahcir]

So thus I am still standing correct in my assumptions and gripes.

As for the Dye, I will agree, much like the milk dye on shields it fades quick, but one just re-applies after time.

[Linke]

Some of the longships avaible in the starting armies are larger than any that ever existed

[Fanest]

not to mention that vikings and other barbarians get Greek fire ships wtf CA????

greek fire was top secret in Byzantium yet here in Attila all but WRE has it

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

not to mention that vikings and other barbarians get Greek fire ships wtf CA????

greek fire was top secret in Byzantium yet here in Attila all but WRE has it

The paticular Formula might have been Top Secret later, however it was not the Formula which was most important but the construction on the ship which made it unique. Liquids which would do exactly the same were used from Rome over Persia to China. The point is that the other Empires used such stuff rather on land which was less impressive because it didn't set water on flames.

[Hadrien Ier]

Many non historical things in this game, and generally in the TW game, are made for gameplay purpose and balance. The gears out of frame are here to put diversity on the faction's design to make them attractive to play.

They also use the success of the show like Vikings to make a viable marketing plan even if it's out of frame. Remember that you play a game with prerogatives of entertainment, produced by a for-profit company.

I would also say that the archaeological discoveries that allow us to establish our knowledge of the distant past make us freeze the use of these objects in time by the carbon-14 dating.

If you do not have multiple reliable written sources that talk about it, you only have the arbitrary C-14 dating and cannot establish a exact period of its use in History.

Even when you have the written sources, you have to discover multiple archaeological sites that validate those sources because of the propaganda from the past writers, mix all of this to establish a scientific consensus.

This consensus is always biased by the methodology, so basically it's not rare to be in the dark of 1 or 2 centuries.

[Påsan]

Every factions have archaisms aplenty. Just watch all the chain mailed, helmeted, sword wielding warriors populating the majority of every army.


They are less obvious than the vikings tough. But still there.

[Kjertesvein]

My apologies if this is in the wrong location.

But am I the only one bothered by how early they have nasal helms in game and have 8th and 9th cent equipment and naval vessels (Long ships?!) with the Saxons/Franks/Nordic folk?

Granted it looks good and is in my opinion very beautiful in design, but all the descriptions of equipment I have read and heard about the early Germanic people is very colorful. Pink, red, blue and many other bright colors used all the time in their clothes rather than the dull and dark colors we see in the game. It looks more akin to the fact the developers watched the show Vikings and said "Lets make everything look like them!" They prided themselves so strongly on following historical facts, but missed out one of the most blatant issues of time period being 300/400 years too early for most of the equipment and the coloring of said equipment if wrong. (Hell the Sutton Hoo helm is 7th Cent most likely! And the Valsgarde helms were mid late 6th!)

One example is that helm they are trying to pawn off as a make up band-aid for the delay in the long-beards flop DLC. (Another rant all together)


Now I ask if am I alone in this? Am I just crazy? Am I ranting for nothing? Please comment below, if you know more about this subject than I, please do share, I welcome the idea of being corrected! I say my rant out of ignorance mainly for the fact I cannot find anything about helms that they have in game showing up before the 6/7th cent! If there is such sources or examples of this equipment before that period, please do share!

Any-way! Cheers! Thanks!

Drahcir the Total Newb

It's an interesting point you bring up there. I understand where you're coming from, but it's not a clear cut case. Take this example.

The Dane Axe didn't become a thing until the 11th century. We have no record of it anywhere until that date. Now, just imagine if you were to play as the Scandinavian factions without the popular Dane Axe. Imagine the outcry of people who didn't know what I just wrote and stated that CA forgot to implement the iconic Dane Axe into the game. That is what happened to another recently released viking game that focus on historical authenticity, called Viking Conquest. People over at Tale Worlds forum got really antsy when the developers of Viking Conquest didn't bend over to the guys who wanted Dane Axe and partial-plate armor in the 9th century. They still haven't implemented it. For some people historical authenticity is a number 1 priority (they are called grognards), for other people it's about recreating scenarios that they are familiar with in iconic movies or games. Who is right? At what degree of historical authenticity do we draw the line? I don't think there is a 100% right-and-wrong -answer to personal preference.

~Wille

[Markas]

It's an interesting point you bring up there. I understand where you're coming from, but it's not a clear cut case. Take this example.

The Dane Axe didn't becomes a thing until the 11th century. We have no record of it anywhere until that date. Now, just imagine if you were to play as the Scandinavian factions without the popular Dane Axe. Imagine the outcry of people who didn't know what I just wrote and stated that CA forgot to implement the iconic Dane Axe into the game. That is what happened to another recently released viking game that focus on historical authenticity, Viking Conquest. People over at Tale Worlds forum got really antsy when the developers of Viking Conquest didn't bend over to the guys who wanted Dane Axe and partial-plate armor in the 9th century. They still haven't implemented it. For some people historical authenticity is a number 1 priority (they are called grognards), for other people it's about recreating scenarios that they are familiar with in iconic movies or games. Who is right? At what degree of historical authenticity do we draw the line? I don't think there is a 100% right-and-wrong -answer to personal preference.

~Wille

That's an interesting example; actual facts always come second to people's perception of History. Posters say they want authentic ancient warfare blah blah but if CA added the ability to only campiagn during late spring and summer there would be outcry. Same for disease, if half your army perished in a siege from dysentery you can imagine how that would be taken. 'Course, you also have the whole omnipresent eye-floating-100ft-above-your-army thing as well. A Mount and blade system would be far more 'accurate', but would it be nearly as functional? CA simply can't win either way.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The "Greek Fire" we think of was invented in 672 although there was a prototype of it in use as early as roughly 510 AD.

16.16

"The emperor Anastasios had formerly summoned, through Marinus, the philosopher Proklos of Athens, a famous man. The emperor Anastasios asked him, “Philosopher, what am I to do with this dog who is so disturbing me and the state?” Proklos replied to him, “Do not despair, emperor. For he will go away and leave as soon as you send some men against him”. The emperor Anastasios immediately spoke to the ex-prefect Marinus the Syrian, who was standing close by while the emperor was conversing with the philosopher Proklos, and told him to prepare for battle against Vitalian who was then opposite Constantinople. The philosopher Proklos said to Marinus the Syrian in the presence of the emperor, “Take what I give you and go out against Vitalian”. And the philosopher ordered that a large amount of what is known as elemental sulphur be brought in and that it be ground into fine powder. He gave it to Marinus with the words, “Wherever you throw some of this, be it at a building or a ship, after sunrise, the building or ship will immediately ignite and be destroyed by fire”. Marinus asked the emperor to send one of his magistri militum with the weapon.

The emperor immediately summoned the Phrygian Patricius, the magistri militum and John, the son of Valeriana, and told them to prepare an attack against Vitalian across the water, and to take fast ships and soldiers. They fell at the emperor’s feet, saying, “We two have been his friends and his father’s friends. We are afraid that chance may bring an unfavourable result and we might be suspected of treachery”. The emperor was angry with them and dismissed them from the palace. He then ordered Marinus the Syrian to take the ships, the elemental sulphur and the force of soldiers that had been prepared and to go out against Vitalian. When Vitalian heard that Marinus was moving against him with a large force, he seized every ship he could find and loaded them with bands of Huns and Goths, fully armed. He then set out to attack Constantinople, confident that he would certainly capture it and crush Marinus, who was coming to meet him, together with the force under his command.


Marinus distributed the elemental sulphur, which the philosopher had given to him, among all the fast ships, telling the soldiers and sailors, “There is no need for weapons but throw some of this at the ships that are coming against you and they will burn. And if we get to the houses on the other side, where the enemies of the emperor are, throw it there”. Marinus told his men to throw it exactly as the philosopher had told him, when he had said that the ships would be set alight by the fire and sunk with the men on board. So he set out for the other side against Vitalian and his men, and Vitalian’s ships came to meet them. They drew very close to one another opposite St Thekla’s in Sykai at that part of the Bosphorus which is called Bytharion. The sea battle took place there at the third hour of the day. Suddenly all the ships of the rebel Vitalian caught fire and were set ablaze and plunged to the bottom of the Bosphorus, taking with them the Gothic, Hunnish and Scythian soldiers who had joined him. But when Vitalian and those on the other ships saw what happened, that their own ships had suddenly been set ablaze, they fled and returned to Anaplous. The ex-prefect Marinus crossed over to Sykai and killed all Vitalian’s men whom he found in the suburbs and houses, pursuing them as far as St Mamas. When evening fell, Marinus and his force stayed there, defending those areas. Vitalian fled from Anaplous during the night with his remaining men and travelled 60 miles that night. At daybreak none of Vitalian’s men could be found on the other side. Christ the Saviour and the emperor’s tyche had won the victory."

The problem with this passage is that much of it is taken from Sextus Julius Africanus, who wrote in the 3rd Century AD. So it is of dubious accuracy. However, the fact of the matter is that what is used here might be the same as the sulphur-based mixture Africanus describes two and a quarter centuries prior, as both use clay pots and the mixture is activated by intense sunlight (light would be amplified by the ocean) plus exposure to the atmosphere.

[Drahcir]

Thank you all! I felt crazy for thinking these things but it seems I am in like minded lands here.

[daelin4]

CA just wanted to make some factions look apart from others. On one hand it is kind of just dumb makeup nonsense, on the other hand there is some plausibility to it.

Of course it's not the sort of academic intensive research into possibilities kind of plausible.

[Nikaa47]

CA just wanted to make some factions look apart from others. On one hand it is kind of just dumb makeup nonsense, on the other hand there is some plausibility to it.

Of course it's not the sort of academic intensive research into possibilities kind of plausible.

I agree. Its just a game with a historical theme and as such there must be made decisions. Especially if you want to sell your game to a community with different demands.