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Thread: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

  1. #161
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    May I add just a small, side note to this interesting discussion about High German during the Late Antiquity and/or the Early Middle Age?

    In Langobard Italy it was in use also the term "Gasindius" (from the German "Gesinde", Old English "ġesīț" “companion, fellow, comrade; companion or follower of a "athel" or king), they were free-men, i.e. "Arimanni" (Langobard: "Hariman", man of the army, that is "Free-man in arms"), and minor nobles, and they formed the retinue of the King (Comitatus) and of the most important Dukes; after the Fall of the Kingdom on 774, they slowly turned in to "Vassi", the basic title in the new emerging Carolingian Feudal System. The "Gasidii" are still attested in Medieval Italy during the XI century, then they vanish.

    Instead "Gastaldi" (German: "Gestellen") in the Langobard Kingdom, were administrators of the "curtis regia" (Royal Estate), that is, high ranking civil and political officers; the most important among them were called "Conti" (Latin "Comites"), anyway their title was by direct appointment of the king and lasted one year; "Gastaldo" is still recorded in XII century and even during the XVII century they are still attested "Gastaldie" in Friuli (minor territorial entities in North Eastern Italy); anyway, the growth of the ducal power compared to the real power of the king, marked the decay of the institute during the later phase of the Kingdom. Placed at the dependences of the Duke, and no more of the king, with reduced functions, at the time of the Franks, the "Gastaldi" eventually no longer differentiate themselves from the mass of other civil servants, of minor importance.
    That is some great information, Diocle!

    Gasindii I have already have covered in Gothic (Gasinthja for companion appears in the Wulfila bible). It is apparently derived from Sinthan (meaning "to go", "wander"). As a sidenote, another possibly useful term is Ganithjis (Kinsman).

    Regarding Athel, I wonder if it appears in Old High German (or Langobard if the language is preserved) without the -ing suffix (unlike the English Aetheling), since that would indicate that this may have been the case in Gothic as well. I've been wondering about the distinction between the Arimanni and the Harimanni, originally I thought they were distinct "social classes" (since that's how they're represented in Med II mods), but I guess they're just two terms for the same group. Probably similar to the Frankish Heerbann (general levy of free landowners capable of bearing arms).

    In Gothic the corresponding term could be Hairuman (if derived from Hairus, sword), literally "swordsman", or maybe Harjaman (if from Harjis, army). Possibly also in names like Ermanaric/Hermanaric (Hairumanareiks would be my guess). Interestingly wikipedia gives Airmanareiks as the reconstructed name, Airus would be "envoy", so seems slightly strange for a kingly name. I guess it could be something like "Earl-ruler" if Airman is similar to Old English Ealdorman ("elderman", or Earl) or Proto-Norse Erilaz (also thought to mean "Earl", possibly connected to the name Heruli).

    @Linke:
    Personally I'm more in favour of Roman names, because the mod is set in Late Antiquity, and the Roman terms may have still been in use (the Briton kingdoms like Gwynedd took pride in their Roman roots). What does everyone think of the suggestion?
    Last edited by Charerg; March 12, 2016 at 04:55 AM.

  2. #162
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Ok, it's been a while since the last update on the concept:

    However, I haven't been entirely idle, here are the Provinces and Settlements for the Roman areas of the map. Some settlements are a bit mislocated (for example, AoC Aachen exchanged for Colonia Agrippina, and Frankfurt for Mogontiacum), but there are too many to list them all. Anyway, suggestions are once again welcome if someone feels there is another settlement close by that would fit the era better, or if the borders need reworking now that the settlement names are done.

    Settlements:
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    Provinces:
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    On the province front, I didn't stick to the actual late Roman provinces everywhere because it was just impossible (without the province names becoming weird), but I tried to make the province names relevant to the regions they encompass.

    Now all that remains is to accomplish the rather difficult task of naming the provinces and settlements of the Germanic areas. That's going to be a bit tricky, to say the least. If native names are desired, that will almost certainly require speculative names.

  3. #163

    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Yeah, I'd maybe change around the names of the southern Italian provinces. Make it "Samnium et Campania" I think, since a good deal of Apulia falls into your "Calabria et Lucania" province. I'd maybe even call that one "Magna Graecia," but I'm not sure how much that name was still used at this point.

    Also I'd go for "Latium et Etruria" for the province where Rome is. I think "Umbria et Picenum" might make sense for the other province though, the one with Ravenna.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Thanks for the suggestions Augustusng!

    Looking at the map, I'd say Tuscia et Umbria is accurate (Tuscia appears to have been the late Roman term for the former Etruria), and also Flaminia et Picenum corresponds very closely to the actual late Roman province. Although I agree that Campania et Samnium would be better, now that I think on it. Not sure of Magna Graecia, although I'd guess it's outdated.
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  5. #165

    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Ah, yeah, you're right. I had Tuscia and Etruria confused.

  6. #166
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    The word Aqizi for "axe" appears in the Wulfila bible (once), as a translation for Greek ἀξίνη (axini, mattock). Although the relevant passage talks about felling trees, so might be specific for wood-axe or axe in general. In any case, I guess Aqizamans would be the term for "Axemen".
    Dear sir, I have some knowledge in linguistics and the Gothic paricularly.
    As for the Aqizamans, it should be rather Aqizimans (aqizi - Fio-stem). However, I just can't remember examples of such derivation scheme in the Wulfila's bible. We can suggest this scheme by analogy with other Germanic languages, though.
    But the only attested productive scheme of noun-to-noun derivation is changing stem to jan-stem.
    In that case, aqizi => Aqizja, pl. Aqizjans.
    Also, there was -areis suffix with similar meaning but it looks like bookish (from Latin -arius).

    As for the Amalings, I dare say that the whole theme with presence the -ing suffix in Gothic is quite speculative. I've never seen any scientific investigation of this question though. So stereotypes and all-Germanic analogy can give a base for form like Amalings. However, if you want to use such a form, in Gothic, it would be rather spelled Amaliggos.

    Sorry, I can't analyse all the thread so ask me directly if you want.

    PS. If you know Russian by any chance, I can give a link to the thread where I gathered Gothic words for a Gothic mod.

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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    But the only attested productive scheme of noun-to-noun derivation is changing stem to jan-stem.
    In that case, aqizi => Aqizja, pl. Aqizjans.
    I mean, we have 'fish => fisherman' in English or 'Fisch => Fischer' in German, but in the Gothic there is fisks => fiskja.

  8. #168
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Well, thanks for the info! I admit that my studies on Gothic are somewhat limited, so mistakes are always possible.

    You're right that terms like *something+man* aren't common in the Wulfila bible (as I recall), but I think the -a suffix is generally used in Gothic when some noun is used as an adjective (such as Alls + Mans = Allamans), so at least my instinct would be to use Aqizamans. That said, you're right that Aqizi is feminine, so maybe it's a different case. An alternative would be Aqizja, as you proposed. Though it could also be similar to "herdsman": hairda (herd)=> hairdeis (herdsman)=> hairdjos (herdsmen). So Aqizeis=> Aqizjos, though at least to me the prior option (Aqizja) sounds "more natural".

    With all that said, I don't think the use of the *something+man* words is strictly wrong, though if you have more suggestions for words that could go without the -mans part, I'm all ears.

    Re: the -ing suffix
    I don't think the -ing suffix appears in the Wulfila bible, but it is attested in the Latin word Gardingi (royal household troops) for Visigothic Spain, as well as the Vandal dynasties Silingi and Hasdingi. So, I'd say the evidence is quite strong that it appeared in Gothic as well, and going by the Latin names, I'd say it was likely written as -ing rather than -iggja, though I guess -ingja is a possibility. Then it would be Amalingjos as a plural. I'll have to think on this.

    Btw, all the really "relevant" Gothic terms are gathered in post #146, so no need to analyse all the thread, but it would be great if you could give your opinion on those (unfortunately I don't know any Russian).
    Last edited by Charerg; March 17, 2016 at 02:22 PM.
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  9. #169
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    but I think the -a suffix is generally used in Gothic when some noun is used as an adjective
    As far as I know, there was general tradition to -a- becoming something like usual infix. But in Wulfilla's time it more likely that interroot vowel depends on root stem.
    It would be better to cite a fragment from here
    Compound nouns are formed by the conjoining of two or more words to form a noun. In Gothic, the second element is always a noun, though the first element can be a noun, adjective, or particle. When the first element is an a-stem noun or adjective, the -a- of the stem usually remains: áiƕa-tundi 'thornbush', dwala-waúrdei 'foolish talk', weina-triu 'vine'. The -a- remains in short ja-stems, but not in long ja-stems: midja-sweipáins 'the flood', niuja-satițs 'novice'; but arbi-numja 'heir', agláiti-waúrdei 'indecent language'. The ō-, jō-, i-, and u-stems generally retain their stem vowels when they form the first element of compounds: mōta-stațs 'toll-place', țūsundi-fațs 'leader of a thousand men', mari-sáiws 'sea', fōtu-baúrd 'footboard'. The n-stem nouns employ -a- in compounds: áuga-daúrō 'window', staua-stōls 'judgement seat'. When consonant stems form the first member of a compound, they sometimes employ the vowel -a- by analogy with the a-stems, e.g. brōțra-lubō 'brotherly love' and nahta-mats 'supper'.
    This fragment agrees with my own observations.
    Aqizi is a feminine jo-stem (of just Fio), just as like metionedțusundi.
    Though it could also be similar to "herdsman": hairda (herd)=> hairdeis (herdsman)=> hairdjos (herdsmen).
    But hairdeis is not the weak jan-stem but the strong ja-stem (which is aqizja). -eis is derived from -j- + -is that we just haven't in the jan-stem. As far as I know such word derivation can't be proved as productive. I'd like to be honest, I haven't checked the productivity by myself and just believe to manuals in this question.
    With all that said, I don't think the use of the *something+man* words is strictly wrong
    Well, I hadn't stated that it's absolutely wrong. -mans forms are possible, I agree. And, to be honest, I had occasionally used -mans forms in my project.
    I've just offered you another word derivation scheme attested in Wulfilla's Bible.
    Though if you have more suggestions for words that could go without the -mans part, I'm all ears.
    I'm sorry, I haven't understood a bit. You mean, another word derivation schemes or other examples of attested defivated jan-stem words?
    but it is attested in the Latin word Gardingi (royal household troops)
    I know, and this question troubles me a lot because it's very strange that such a common Germanic suffix doesn't occur at the Bible almost at all but occurs in such a maginal case. Moreover, in the Bible, we have ingardja - word derivated from the same root (in-gard-ja) but using the common Gothic scheme (yes, the jan-stem again).
    I dare say, that the Gothic had just lost the Proto-Germanic -ingaz suffix and had saved it only in proper names or similar ones (such as names of Vandalic and Gothic tribes). The only attested Wulfilla's word with -ingaz suffix is gadiliggs 'nephew' which is a termin of kinship. But yes, it's my opinion only. I just hope I've produced the whole background. So choose what you want.
    I'd say it was likely written as -ing rather than -iggja, though I guess -ingja is a possibility.
    If you speak about jan-stem than no, as far as I know the situation in the Proto-Germanic, word with -ingaz changed as the strong a-stem. So we have sg. -iggs, pl. -iggos.
    As for ng/gg, it's just a spelling case. It's the same sound ŋg, but -gg- is the classical Wulfilla's spelling going from the Greek one. And the -ng- spelling could occur later when the Goths stated to be Latinized.
    As for gardingi, it's a Latin spelling with the Latin ending.
    Btw, all the really "relevant" Gothic terms are gathered in post #146, so no need to analyse all the thread, but it would be great if you could give your opinion on those (unfortunately I don't know any Russian).
    Ok, I'll check them a bit later.
    PS. Sorry if I'm too verbose.

  10. #170
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    general tradition
    General tendency, I meant.
    Sorry, I can't edit my posts yet.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Again, thanks for the detailed response!

    I have to admit that your knowledge probably exceeds my own (I'm very much an amateur as far as linguistics go). But yes, now that you explained it, Aqizimans does appear the "correct form". Regarding my comment about the *mans* I just meant that if you have more similar suggestions (like perhaps Hairjos instead of Hairumans, if that is the correct spelling), they're much appreciated!

    Regarding -ing:
    So I guess all the *gg* spellings within the Wulfila bible denote an -ng- sound (like a Greek double gamma)? In that case Wruggo for sling should probably be written as Wrungo (similar to English wring), to avoid confusion. And the Gothic term for Gardingi should be Gardings, pl. Gardingos, if I understand correctly (as in Dags, Dagos).
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Regarding my comment about the *mans* I just meant that if you have more similar suggestions (like perhaps Hairjos instead of Hairumans, if that is the correct spelling), they're much appreciated!
    Ok, I'll do it.
    So I guess all the *gg* spellings within the Wulfila bible denote an -ng- sound (like a Greek double gamma)? In that case Wruggo for sling should probably be written as Wrungo (similar to English wring), to avoid confusion. And the Gothic term for Gardingi should be Gardings, pl. Gardingos, if I understand correctly (as in Dags, Dagos).
    Well, you could do so but I'd like to somehow warn you. There is no full possibility to show 'true' Gothic pronunciation. Firstly, because there is an element of reconstruction and disputed nuances. Secondly, because there is some sounds that you just can't show. For example, b and d in most cases weren't exactly b and d, they were fricatives. Or ai, ei, au weren't diphtongs. You just can't show such nuances this to players. And the Gothic spelling with such 'diphtongs' and 'gg' is a sort of traditional.
    But in the case of gg, you can use ng instead (we see such a fluctuation in the attested Gothic texts, so it's rightful). But there is a nuance (yep, again). In some rare cases, gg is gg! This can be understood only from etymology. When you compare wrungo with wring, you're right because these words are probably akin. I dare say that when you have -ng- in English you have <ng> in Gothic. Such as siggwan - to sing. But we have the word triggws (faithful, true) and there is no -ng-. You can see it if you take a look at my nickname which is the Old Norse version of that word. And in English, it has become true. So, you can use -ng- but you'll have a little (a little!) risk to mistake.
    Or we have w that in Gothic word is exactly w or labialztion of previous consonat (such as triggws) but in foreign word it's y (like German ü). E.g. swnagoga.
    But it's a 'lyrical digression', as we say in Russian.

  13. #173
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Disclaimer. I use thorn (ț) but you can use th of course. But it’s proved that the game font ‘knows’ ț.
    For the sound [hw or xw] there are generally used symbols ƕ, hw, hv. Choose what you want. I prefer the last one.
    I also provide ng-variants if gg-words if you need it.

    Balthareiki and Amaljareiki
    I must admit, it’s a very interesting suggestion.
    The only point – Amalareiki.
    Amali – is Latinized form, not pure Gothic stem. We can see it in the names like Amalaswința and probably Amalareiks.
    Arbja (Heir, alternatively Arbinumja)
    +
    Fauragaggja (lit. "foregoer", administrator)
    + (Fauragangja)
    Fauramathleis (lit. "forespeaker", ruler)
    +
    Gastalds (lit. "possessor", a governor of a portion of the royal demesne)
    Well, I don’t find this word historically accurate. What base go you have for it?
    Meaning of the verb gastaldan is quite general. May be, it would be better to use word gadaila? It’s formed from the word meaning ’part’.
    Hundafaths (leader of a hundred)
    +
    Kindins
    +
    I can add that this word is probably an analog of Germanic term for ‘king’: PGmc *kuningaz, OE cyning, ON konungr. There is no ‘kuniggs’ in Gothic. So, it probably can be used with meaning ‘tribal chief’.
    Thiudans (King)
    Well, it’s right in general but you’d better use a word Reiks instead of it. I can explain it if you need. Nuances again
    Thusundifaths (leader of a thousand)
    +
    Aithamans (Oathmen)
    Grammatically right.
    I’ve used for it a nominalized adjective – Țai Ufaițjans. It means ‘The Sworn (Ones)’.
    Here I must give an explanation because it will be useful later.
    The Gothic (as the Old Norse also) hadn’t articles. But it had definite article-like pronouns. In English or German, these pronouns have become true definite articles.
    So there was a tendency that adjectives in weak declension and nominalized adjectives and participles were used with such an article. You can see this in English – ‘The rich are taxed enough’. But it wasn’t a system. There were many exclusions, Gothic hasn’t just created the rule.
    However, when you use an adjective as a noun, it’s preferable to use it in the weak declension and with an ‘article’. You can use it without ‘article’ though. The Goths would understand you, I think.
    Apiskaupus (Bishop)
    Aipiskaupus.
    Weiha (Priest)
    +
    Also, Gudja.
    Gadrauhteis (Soldiers)
    +
    Ganithjos (Kinsmen)
    +
    Gardingos (Lat. Gardingi, royal retainers)
    +
    Gasinthjos (Lat. Gasindii, companions)
    There is word without j also – Gasința which is the same.
    Plural forms are – Gasințans, Gasințjans.
    Gutanai Athalingos (Gothic Nobles, Athala derived from "Athalaricus")
    Well, I find the proof of presence of this word in Gothic quite weak. As an –iggs form also. But yes, let’s assume it as we had discussed the Common Germanic analogy before.
    Then, the Gutanai is wrong. It’s a n-stem noun not adjective. The adjective could be derived from the root as gutisks. So, the whole form is Gutiskai Athalingos / Gutiskai Athaliggos.
    In a similar case, I had gone another way. There is attested adjective ‘noble’ – godakunds. So, there could be not Gothic Nobles but Noble Goths – Godakundai Gutans.
    Hairumans (Swordsmen)
    +
    Also, Hairjans.
    Marhadrauhteis (Horse soldiers)
    +
    However, *marhs seems to be someone fantasy. It could be in Gothic but I haven’t seen a sign of it. The only ‘horse sign’ in Gothic is a root in some plant name – aihvatundi (compare Latin equus).
    So, I had used that root.
    In this case, Aihvadrauhteis.
    Marhamans (Horsemen)
    +
    Also, Marhjans, Aihvamans (I used this), Aihvjans.
    Skildubairjos (Shieldbearers)
    I don’t know what scheme you thought of using bairjos.
    In Gothic, the main productive scheme of verb-to-noun derivation with ‘actor, acting subject’ meaning is nomilization of participle I. Even without article, there was so called nd-stem. E.g. frion – to love, frionds – friend, talzjan – to teach, talzjands – teacher. Well, there was also –areis suffix but I had spoken of it earlier.
    In that case, the word should be Skildubairands.
    Or we can use the same jan-stem – just Skildjans (shieldmen).
    Thiufalai Marhadrauhteis (Taifali horse soldiers)
    Thiufaliskai Marhadrauhteis (or another term for horsemen).
    I wonder only where you have found ‘Thiufal’ form. Never heard of it.
    Aqizimans or Aqizjans
    +
    Baurgawardjos
    There were some cases of using –a- infix with consonant-stems. But logically, there should be no infix, just baurg-. However, we have an attested case of baurgswaddjus (‘town walls’) that is Gen. Sg. (and it’s the only case of using Genitive for the first part in a compound word).
    So, it more likely should be Baurgwardjans or Baurgswardjans.
    Gaisamans
    Well, there is a very strange sign of presence of this root in Gothic but let it be.
    Should be Gaizamans or Gaizjans. Gais – is devoicing of final –z, it’s common for Gothic spelling.
    Jundans
    The only three cases of using the word junda have nothing to do with people. It’s just the period of life (is word ‘youngness’ in English?).
    So, there should be an adjective like Țai Juggans / Țai Jungans
    Skiutjans
    Another reconstruction without any signs in Gothic. If we admit it, there should be nd-stem Skiutands.
    Stainawarpjos or Wrungjos
    Nd-stem. Stainawairpands (I used the same).
    As for Wrungjo, it seems to me that there is a mistake produced by English polysemy (yep, I had a lot problems because of it too). I had checked its using. There is only meaning ‘hunting device, trap’. No weapon.
    Thiwos (Commoners)
    Thiwos are ‘servants’. It’s unlikely to user it for commoners. But there are words like Baurgjans (town people) and Gaujans (people of Gau (German), some district).
    Bogamans
    It’s late Crimean Gothic. But yes, it’s a definite sign of the root presence. Should be Bugamans or Bugjans.
    Brunjanai Gaisamans
    Well, I think you shouldn’t create a word ‘armored’ because you’ll need to create, firstly, a verb (and I don’t know exactly of which class) and secondly, a participle II. Why not use a noun with an article (in armor?). Gaizamans in Brunjon.
    Gutanai Wigebinda
    The second word is very unlikely. There is a word hansa which definitely means both crowd and company of armed men.
    So, Gutiska Hansa.

  14. #174
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Thanks for the detailed response!

    I'll go through that later on, and update the names where necessary. About Amalareiki I'dd like to add that I did later change the faction names (post #154, see below). If using the -ing type dynastic names, I guess the -reiki type names would go like Hasdingareiki, for example?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    It appears I had the Gothic dynasty names a bit wrong. Apparently the form Amelungen appears in the Nibelungenleid as a reference to the Amali dynasty. This means that the dynasty name was most likely "Amalings" or Amalingas (Gothic). The -ing ending was probably fairly common for dynastic names during the era, it also appears in the Scylfing dynasty (as well as the Karlings, of course). So, the faction names should be one of the following options:

    A) Faction names in the form "Kingdom of X":
    - Thiudangardi Amalinge
    - Thiudangardi Balthinge

    B) Or simply use the dynastic names themselves:
    - Amalingos
    - Balthingos


    Using the same format, the Vandal kingdom should probably be referred to as Thiudangardi Hasdinge or Hasdingos.

    For the names of the rulers themselves, I'm a bit uncertain how the -reik ending was used in names. Wikipedia suggests that it was simply -reiks. That said, wikipedia is wikipedia. I think it could have been -reik or perhaps even -reikus, but we'll stick to the "official version" for now. So, the kings of the aforementioned factions would be:

    - Gaisareiks (Gaiseric)
    - Thiudareiks (Theodoric)
    - Walamer (Valamir)

    I'm somewhat unsure of Valamir, but since his name is Βαλαμερ in the Greek alphabet, I think Walamer is plausible.
    Re: Gastald

    The Latin form of the title (Gastaldus) is attested to have been used in the Lombardic kingdom. And as the Lombard domains were formerly held by the Ostrogoths, and the verb appears in Gothic, I think it's reasonable to assume that the title may have existed with the Goths as well. Similarly Gasindii was a term for the Lombard gentry, which leads me to conclude that Gasinthja was likely used in a military context by the Goths as well.

    Re: Horse names

    You're right that neither Aihwus nor Marhs appear in the Wulfila bible (except in Aihwatundi). They're probably largely based on comparisons between Old English Eoh and Mearh.

    Re: Gaiz

    As I understand Gaiz is probably a reconstruction. I fished the term out of this dictionary, which unfortunately isn't very detailed. I guess it's based on the reconstructed Proto-Germanic word *Gaizaz.

    Re: Thiwos

    Regarding my assumption that it could also mean "commoner" in a more general sense, I based it off these passages:

    Nehemiah 5:14
    D jah fram țamma daga ei anabauț mis ei weisjau fauramațleis ize in Iudaia, fram jera ·k· und jer ·l· jah anțar Arta[r]ksairksaus țiudanis ·ib· jera, ik jah broțrjus meinai hlaif fauramațleis meinis ni matidedum.

    — Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor.

    Nehemiah 5:15
    D iț fauramațljos țaiei weisun faura mis kauridedun țo managein jah nemun at im hlaibans jah wein jah nauhțanuh silubris sikle ·m·, jah skalkos ize fraujinodedun țizai managein; iț ik ni tawida swa faura andwairțja agisis gudis.

    — But the former governors that had been before me were chargeable unto the people, and had taken of them bread and wine, beside forty shekels of silver; yea, even their servants bare rule over the people: but so did not I, because of the fear of God.

    Nehemiah 5:16
    D jah waurstw țizos baurgswaddjaus inswințida, jah țaurp ni gastaistald, jah țiwos meinai jah allai țai galisanans du țamma waurstwa.

    — Yea, also I continued in the work of this wall, neither bought we any land: and all my servants were gathered thither unto the work.
    Note the use of Thiudanis (genitive of Thiudans) for King. Actually I'm kinda curious why you think Reiks would be more accurate for the Gothic kings? I don't recall any use of Reiks for king in Wulfila (not that I've read through it all). Regarding Thiwos vs Skalkos I interpreted the usage of the terms here to mean that "even their slaves lorded over the people", when using Skalks and "all my people were gathered unto the work" when using Thiwos. Another reason was how close the term is to Thiuda (people), so it seemed logical that it might be a bit broader term, but perhaps I'm reading too much into the similarity.

    Re: Taifali

    Thiufaleis (or Thiufalja) is a name I postulated in post 152 (see below), as a possible Gothic term for the tribe:

    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    Since I think editing my post for the 4th time would be overkill, I'll just add that I figured out a likely Gothic word for "Taifali". As Gothic is the only known East Germanic language, it probably makes sense to use it for several Germanic factions (namely the Goths, Vandals, Rugii, Gepidae and possibly also the Langobards and the Suebi). In any case, if Taifali is derived from "people of the plain", the Gothic form would be something like Thiuda-falthan, probably shortened to Thiufaleis or Thiufalja (singular forms), in either case the plural would be Thiufaljos.

    It's a speculative form, but I think reasonably supported. First off, there are examples of other peoples/tribes deriving their names from "plains". The obvious examples would be the Saxon groups at the end of the 8th century: Westfalahi and Ostfalahi (Latin forms). Also Slavic tribes such as the Polans (derived from Old Slavic Pole meaning field).

    Finally, the area of Taifali settlement (Poitou) was called Thifalia or Theiphalia during the 6th century, suggesting that the first component of the name was indeed something like Gothic Thiuda or Old English Theod (meaning people). Also, Theiphalia suggest that the last component was indeed close to faldan (Old English for "fold").
    Although I should add that I'm now rather uncertain if Thiufaljos is a plausible plural, it could be just Thiufaleis (as in Drauhteis and other ethnic names like Rumoneis for Romans).

    EDIT:

    Actually, another term I'd like to ask you about is Kiusan (to Choose). If one wanted to use a name like "Chosen Archers" would Kiusanai Skiutands be correct?

    Also, as a sidenote, there is the alternative name for sword (besides Hairus): Mekeis. Initially I thought this would be better than Hairus since it's so common in modern languages spoken in Eastern Europe (mech or something similar in Slavic, miekka in Finnish, also Old English mece). I guess you could differentiate between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths by using Mekjamans (Mekjans?) for Ostrogoths instead of Hairumans.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 18, 2016 at 09:33 AM.
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    If using the -ing type dynastic names, I guess the -reiki type names would go like Hasdingareiki, for example?
    Yes, I suppose.
    The Latin form of the title (Gastaldus) is attested to have been used in the Lombardic kingdom. And as the Lombard domains were formerly held by the Ostrogoths, and the verb appears in Gothic, I think it's reasonable to assume that the title may have existed with the Goths as well. Similarly Gasindii was a term for the Lombard gentry, which leads me to conclude that Gasinthja was likely used in a military context by the Goths as well.
    This suggestions have too many assumptions. Is there any evidence of word adoption from Goths to Langobards? And the form Gasindii can't be reliable proof of declension because it's Latinized form. It seems to me that in such 'ga- words' there was just a fluctuation between an- and jan- stems.
    I just can't understand why you need such assumptions - because Gothic itself has words for officers/followers/companions. So choose what you want. I can't say that you are fundamentally wrong but I'm just a sort of purist.
    I fished the term out of this dictionary, which unfortunately isn't very detailed. I guess it's based on the reconstructed Proto-Germanic word *Gaizaz.
    I can't say where they've got it from. As for PGmc, well, in fact, we can reconstruct from it many Gothic words. But Gothic is quite strange language. For example, it hadn't Indo-European names for mother and father (!) (there was fadar but it's quite marginal). For it, Gothic had its own terms of disputable origin - aithei and atta. It's quite strange that such 'usual' language changed even core words, isn't it? That's why, being a purist, I try to use only that words that have attested roots with attested meanings in Gothic texts. There probably was the word *gais in Gothic but did it mean 'spear'? May be 'javelin'? May be 'bear-spear'? Who knows?
    Regarding Thiwos vs Skalkos I interpreted the usage of the terms here to mean that "even their slaves lorded over the people", when using Skalks and "all my people were gathered unto the work" when using Thiwos.
    Well, you are quite right. Skalkos tends to concern bond servants, and thiwos hasn't such an emphasis, may be, concerning free servants, servants in general mostly. But how does it prove the 'commoners' meaning?
    As for thiwos/thiuda, I can't state it firmly but, as far as I can see, these words descends from even different Proto-Indo-European roots. Phonetic similarity is often delusive.
    Thiufaleis (or Thiufalja) is a name I postulated in post 152 (see below), as a possible Gothic term for the tribe:
    I'm afraid, we don't have a base for such conclusions. We know neither origin of Taifali name nor exact origin of that people themselves. It may be a Sarmatian element, for example.
    Although I should add that I'm now rather uncertain if Thiufaljos is a plausible plural, it could be just Thiufaleis (as in Drauhteis and other ethnic names like Rumoneis for Romans).
    I have no idea of the declension. You shouldn't be cheated by Taifali, it's just another Latin ending because we know that word from Latin sources. I think, the most simple way is to treat such names as a-stem words (which is quite basic for masculine words). Thiufals - Thiufalos, if you need.
    As for Rumoneis, it seems to be another special case, may be, Latin-Gothic cross-phenomenon of mixed u/i-stem. It's no use to write about it in detail.
    Note the use of Thiudanis (genitive of Thiudans) for King. Actually I'm kinda curious why you think Reiks would be more accurate for the Gothic kings?
    It's a long, long tale
    You can read Wolfram about it (page 15, chapter Kings; page 94). I can't analyze Wolfram's historical accuracy. His linguistic opinions are often unprofessional though. But here, he is right. Trying to translate thiudans/reiks, we can't rely on English because it just hasn't such nuances of meaning. In the Wulfila's Bible, thiudans is amazingly precisely corresponds with Greek βασιλεύς (basileus) which means different biblical emperor-like rulers and God Himself, while reiks corresponds with Greek ἄρχων (Archon) which means generally 'ruler'. Even the devil, the prince (ἄρχων, reiks) of the world. And there is the point, the sacral aspect of power that Wolfram mentions too and that isn't represented in English 'king'. Archon, reiks - is somebody who has the power from this world, from kinship. Basileus, thiudans - is someone who has the power from God. Russian, for example, can distinguish these words like Gothic.
    Let's see the 5th century situation. Could some barbarian kings call himself a basileus? It's quite unbelievable. Odoacer sent insignia to the only true Lord's anointed ruler - ERE basileus. The first Gothic kings treated themselves just as Roman nobles. The first barbarian king, that claimed himself basileus and was recognized as basileus by Romans (Byzantians), was Charlemagne. And Charlemagne was the first barbarian ruler who pretended to be the ruler of pan-Christian kingdom.
    So, I think it's unlikely that someone like Alaric called himself thiudans while in his vocabulary that word was for basileus.
    Actually, another term I'd like to ask you about is Kiusan (to Choose). If one wanted to use a name like "Chosen Archers" would Kiusanai Skiutands be correct?
    Kiusan seems to mean rather prove. There is more frequent verb that exactly means choose - gawaljan (or simply waljan buth the first one sounds more perfective). So I had used for that case pariciple II - Gawaliths (pl. Gawalidai).
    Also, as a sidenote, there is the alternative name for sword (besides Hairus): Mekeis. Initially I thought this would be better than Hairus since it's so common in modern languages spoken in Eastern Europe (mech or something similar in Slavic, miekka in Finnish, also Old English mece). I guess you could differentiate between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths by using Mekjamans (Mekjans?) for Ostrogoths instead of Hairumans.
    I can't say anything about differentiation between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths so I'll provide you only facts.
    Here we should see the original Greek text again. Hairus is quite frequent term while meki is rare. Unlikely to reiks/thiudans, there is no precision. Greek authors used terms makhaira and rhomphaia. Of course, they aren't that ancient types of sword, just literary terms for shorter and longer swords respectively. Wulfila used hairus both for makhaira and rhomphaia and meki - only for makhaira. So, it's more likely that meki was for shorter swords and hairus - for longer swords (if there was any difference, of course).
    As for actor noun, ot should be Mekjans / Mekimans (we don't even know its gender and declension but it's more likely to be long ja-stem so we have such compound word).

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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    I don't know if Gastalds will end up as an actually used title, as you said there are several overlapping titles. But I think it's worth including in the list since clearly the Langobardic title is based on the verb Gastaldan. Perhaps not definitely provable, but personally I'm willing to use terms that aren't directly attested in the Wulfila bible, so long as they are clearly Germanic in origin (as in Gastaldus, the Ga- prefix is very distinctive of Gothic). Unfortunately Gothic is the only East Germanic language that has been documented, so it will have to be used for several factions besides the Goths themselves. It's not ideal but I think it's a preferable solution to using Latin terminology.

    Similarly I think Thiufalos is plausible enough to be used, although I admit I could be wrong with the etymology. Still, I think it's a good guess, though not a certainty by any means.

    Re: Thiwos
    Yes, "commoner" was a pretty inaccurate translation on my part.

    Re: Aithei
    My guess would be that the Gothic term for mother (aithei) is a Finnic loan (äiti in modern Finnish), though since no written records exist of any Finnic language from the era, it's just a guess. Though regarding Gaiz, the Finnic term is close to that as well (keihäs), so it's at least unlikely that Gothic would have adopted an alternate name for "spear" from that source.

    Re: Hairus vs Meki
    Since Meki appears in Wulfila only once, as I recall, I doubt there's a basis to assume that it was specific to shortswords (I think Old English mece is a generic term as well, though not sure on that). Additionally, according to this dictionary, the Crimean Gothic term for sword was mycha. Regarding the Visigoths vs Ostrogoths, the proposed differentiation in the terms for "swordsmen" is only for the sake of gameplay, in order to not make the two factions completely identical.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 18, 2016 at 06:41 PM.
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  17. #177
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    My guess would be that the Gothic term for mother (aithei) is a Finnic loan (äiti in modern Finnish), though since no written records exist of any Finnic language from the era, it's just a guess. Though regarding Gaiz, the Finnic term is close to that as well (keihäs), so it's at least unlikely that Gothic would have adopted an alternate name for "spear" from that source.
    There could be a connection indeed. But I'd rather suggest Germanic-to-Finnic loans in general, as it were with Germanic-Slavic interactions.
    Unfortunately Gothic is the only East Germanic language that has been documented, so it will have to be used for several factions besides the Goths themselves.
    Actually, it's quite reasonable. I had used Gothic for Vandals and Burgundians. Of course, there is no eveidence that Gothic was some kind of lingua franca for the Germanic people. But Gothic could have some 'authority' because it was the only literary Germanic language. Also, it could be a church language for Germanic Arians because of Wulfila's translation. For the Eastern Germanic people, it's more likely cause their languages were similar.
    Regarding the Visigoths vs Ostrogoths, the proposed differentiation in the terms for "swordsmen" is only for the sake of gameplay, in order to not make the two factions completely identical.
    Well, I can suggest using meki/hairus distinctions for units with different types of sword. The game distinguishes berween the simple and heavy/long spatha.
    As for different units, there are already Visigothic gardingi along with Ostrogothic saiones. By the way, as 'saiones' is Latin form, I investigated this and found in literature that it could be Gothic word sagja. Pl. Sagjans.

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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    You're right that usually the direction is Germanic-to-Finnic, but not necessarily always. My guess is that the Goths could have assimilated some Finnic-speaking elements and acquired the term from there. There are, after all, some Finnic loans in Swedish as well (like the word for Raven: en Korp in Swedish, Korppi in Finnish).

    I guess the meki/hairus distinction could actually be pretty ideal to distinguish between seaxes (semispatha) and longswords (spatha). Great find on the Saiones, I totally forgot about that term! What is the meaning of the term, btw?
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    I guess the meki/hairus distinction could actually be pretty ideal to distinguish between seaxes (semispatha) and longswords (spatha).
    I guess so.
    Great find on the Saiones, I totally forgot about that term! What is the meaning of the term, btw?
    I recall something like 'companion, follower' (of king) as well.

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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Ok, so I guess we are at a point where the linguistic stuff is mostly done (although a list of Gothic names still needs to be compiled), and we can move on to creating the actual unit rosters. This way people like Aetius who have more knowledge of the archaelogical and tactical side of things can weight in.

    Anyway, here's my suggestion for the "Core roster" of the East Germanic factions:

    Bodyguard:
    - Athalingos (Nobles, elite melee cavalry)

    Spear Infantry:
    - Gaizamans (Spearmen, levy spearmen)
    - Gadrauhteis (Soldiers, militia spearmen)

    Melee Infantry:

    - Aqizjans (Axemen, levy infantry)
    - Mekjans (Seaxmen, militia infantry)
    - Hairumans (Swordsmen, professional infantry)

    Missile Infantry:
    - Stainawairpands (Stone hurlers, levy slingers)
    - Bugamans (Bowmen, levy archers)
    - Skiutands (Archers, militia archers)
    - Jungans (Young ones, skirmishers)

    Melee Cavalry:
    - Aihwadrauhteis (Horse soldiers, medium cavalry)
    - Gasinthjans (Companions, heavy cavalry)

    Missile Cavalry:
    - Aihwamans (Horsemen, light skirmisher cavalry)

    Twelve units, all in all (plus the Bodyguard). This is intended as a sort of multi-factional "core roster" that can be expanded via factional units. Some notes:

    - I chose to use Hairumans since the latin term Arimannus is attested for the Lombard warrior class. Going with the theme that the Lombards also used Gastaldus and Gasindii, both words that also appear in Gothic, there's a chance that the same similarity extends to the term Arimannus. Admittedly Lombardic isn't classified as East Germanic (and the language is extremely poorly known in any case), but at least there's some historic evidence that a similar term was in use.
    - I dropped the Thai article from Jungans because it is so close to the English "the" and it would be weird to see multiple units of "The Young Ones" on the battlefield. Imo with a game intended for an audience familiar with English it's better to use this without the article, as far as unit names are concerned.
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