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Thread: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

  1. #141
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Aremorica was the contemporary term in the 5th Century, yes.

    Litauia is the Roman fort of Segontium, in North Wales.



    Yellow: Powys.
    Red: Roman-Influenced Britain
    Pink: Litauia/Letauia/Letavia (Gwynedd?)

    I guess you could throw Glywyssing in South Wales and make Dumnonia and Cantware emergent factions.

    Also slight modification to the Frankish, Balthi Gothic, and Suebian borders.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; March 05, 2016 at 06:22 PM.

  2. #142
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    If Litauia was centered on Segontium, it would indeed be Gwynedd (or possibly became Gwynedd later). However, I'm not sure if Chester (Roman Deva Victrix) should be part of it. According to wikipedia, Chester is thought to have become a part of Powys.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    It's debatable how quickly the regional authorities broke down into local authorities, so yeah I agree that Chester may be somewhat up for interpretation.

    I need to call in Riothamus here.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; March 05, 2016 at 10:42 PM.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Ugh, this is why I prefer Classical Antiquity to Late Antiquity. Lot less confusion on map borders.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Well, I did some research for the settlement names, starting with Britain since that's the "most discussed" area so far. Here's what I have so far:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Briton (Celtic) names are practically all from the list of "28 or 33 cities of Britain" from the Historia Brittonum attributed to Nennius. In the case of "Cair Brithon" it has been suggested that this referred to the capital of Ystrad Clud (at least later the capital was called Alt Clut), on the basis that medieval Scottish Dun Breatainn means "fortress of the Britons". Still, the etymology is a bit uncertain, so perhaps Alt Clut might be more accurate.

    One change I did was to change AoC Bamburgh into Din Baer (Dunbar) about 65 km northwest of Bamburgh. The early capital of Gododdin was probably Traprain Law, but since there is no Celtic name for the place, I chose to go with the close by Dunbar, since that appears to have been an important settlement as well. Another option would be Din Eidyn (Edinburgh), but that would "mislocate" the settlement even more on the campaign map.

    Similarly, Mathrafal has been changed into Cair Guricon (modern Wroxeter), located about 34 km east of Mathrafal (near Welshpool). Mathrafal was the capital of Powys later on, but the early capital was probably Cair Guricon (formerly Roman Viroconium Cornoviorum).

    Here's the list of the settlements and their Roman names:
    - Cair Ebrauc (Eboracum)
    - Cair Legion (Deva Victrix, legionary fortress)
    - Cair Segeint (Segontium)
    - Cair Guricon (Viroconium)
    - Cair Luitcoyt (Letocetum)
    - Guenta (Venta Silurum)
    - Cair Lundein (Londinium)
    - Cair Ceint (Durovernum Cantiacorum)
    - Cair Guinntguic (Venta Belgarum)

    And Lincylene (Lincoln) was Lindum Colonia, here I used the Old English name.

    The "Pictish names" are all actually Scottish Gaelic, as I don't think any Pictish names have survived (unfortunately), so these are as "close to accurate" as I was able to get.

    One settlement that turned out to be problematic was Streonshalh (modern Whitby, I think), since I couldn't find any pre-Anglo-Saxon settlements close by. Suggestions are welcome.

    Edit: As an aside, I wonder what the Gothic terms for the Balthi and Amali dynasties were? Gothic for kingdom would be "Thiudangardi" or "Thiudinassus" (Thiuda meaning people and Gards courtyard or enclosure).

    Edit2: On futher study, Gards seems to also literally mean "house" or "household", from Wulfila Bible: "...ei was us garda fadreinais Daweidis" meaning "he was of the house and lineage of David". Actually in this context it could be even translated as "clan" or "tribe". I guess the same form also appears in the "Gardingi" of Visigothic Spain.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 06, 2016 at 04:45 PM.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Ok, I spent quite a while reading about Gothic, and I'm now fairly confident I have the correct forms of various words that might be of use for the Goths. I'll just throw a double post in here, since the subject is different from my previous post.

    So, to start of, the names of the factions:

    I'm guessing the Gothic names for the dynasties probably aren't available, so I'll just postulate what they might have been based on their Latin forms: I think the Gothic root would be "Baltha" for the Balthi and "Amala" for the Amali. So, if one is trying to say "Kingdom of the Balthi" it would be Thiudangardi Balthe and for "Kingdom of the Amali" Thiudangardi Amale.

    An alternate option would be to construct the names similarly to modern Sweden (Sverige), coming from Svea rike, literally "rule of the Svea". For Gothic the forms would then be Balthareiki and Amalareiki. Personally I'd go with the latter option, since it's "short and simple".

    Some titles and offices:

    Arbja (Heir, alternatively Arbinumja)
    Fauragangja (lit. "foregoer", administrator)
    Fauramathleis (lit. "forespeaker", ruler)
    Gastalds (lit. "possessor", a governor of a portion of the royal demesne)
    Hundafaths (leader of a hundred)
    Kindins (Governor, Regent)
    Thiudans or Reiks (King)
    Thusundifaths (leader of a thousand)

    And for the priestly agents:

    Aipiskaupus
    (Bishop)
    Weiha or Gudja (Priest)

    For unit names I think a sufficient number is also available to create a solid roster without the need to use Latin terminology for Gothic units:

    Cavalry/high end units:

    Aithamans or Thai Ufaithjans (Oathmen, the Sworn Ones)
    Gadrauhteis (Soldiers)
    Ganithjos (Kinsmen)
    Gardingos (Lat. Gardingi, royal retainers)
    Gasinthjans or Gasinthans (Lat. Gasindii, companions)
    Gawalidai (Chosen)
    Gutiskai Athalingos (Gothic Nobles, Athala derived from "Athalaricus")
    Hairumans or Hairjans (Swordsmen)
    Aihwadrauhteis (Horse soldiers)
    Aihwamans or Aihwjans (Horsemen)
    Sagjans (Lat. Saiones, companions or followers)
    Skildubairands or Skildjans (Shieldbearers)
    Thiufaliskai Aihwadrauhteis (Taifali horse soldiers)

    And then some terminology for more low-end units:

    Aqizimans or Aqizjans (Axemen, possibly Aqizi refers to "mattock" or "adze" instead of "axe", but no other attested term)
    Baurgwardjans (lit. City Warders)
    Gaizamans or Gaizjans (Spearmen)
    Thai Jungans (The Young Ones)
    Skiutands (lit. Shooters (ie. Archers), Skiuta for shoot is a postulated form (though postulated by linguists, not by me!))
    Stainawairpands
    (lit. Stone throwers, Slingers)
    Thiwos (Servants)

    Alternative name for archers would be Bugamans (Bowmen). Besides these, there are more names that could be used like Gaizamans in Brunjon (Spearmen in armour) or Gutiska Hansa (Gothic warband). Instead of Thiwos there are alternatives Baurgjans (citizens, town people) and Gaujans (people of a Gau, a district).

    EDIT:
    The Faction names are outdated, see post #154 for the updated version.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 19, 2016 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Numerous corrections and additions, my thanks to Tryggvi!

  7. #147
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    I like it!

    ~ Aetius

  8. #148
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    On the settlement naming front, I managed to find a settlement close to Streonshalh: the Roman fort Cataractonium (modern Catterick) was located about 65 km west of Whitby (Streonshalh). It is considered the likely site for the Battle of Catraeth mentioned in the Welsh poem Y Gododdin. So, we have a former Roman fort and an Old Welsh name that (at least likely) refers to the place, perfect!

    With Ireland the settlements may be a little more problematic (since they had no major settlements), but so far the northern portion has proven relatively easy. CA already put the royal seats of Connacht and the Northern Ui Neill in place, although the seat of Ulaid, Emain Macha, was located about 65 km west of Downpatrick, but that's an "acceptable mislocation". So, this is how it looks so far:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #149

    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    What exact year are we talking about MMFA?

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  10. #150
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    443 AD

  11. #151
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Ok, so I finished up the settlement names for Ireland. The southern portion turned out to be a lot more problematic.

    First off, I replaced Dublin with the Hill of Tara, located about 33 km northwest of Dublin. As this was traditionally the seat of the High King of Ireland, it's an obvious choice. Although as I recall the High Kings were from the Ui Neill dynasty during the era, so might have to make some changes to the factions, although that would mean losing Laigin (Leinster).

    Second settlement is Cashel, the traditional seat for the kings of Munster. As an Iron Age ringfort, it fits right in.

    The third settlement is Cork, which only became important during the Viking era (much like Dublin). I had a lot of trouble finding any suitable settlements close by, but finally discovered the Garranes ringfort near Bandon. It is located about 24 km southwest of Cork. Archaeologists believe this may have been Rath Raithleann, the seat of the Eoganacht Raithlind.

    So, Ireland and Britain should be complete unless someone can offer more accurate names for the settlements (I can't tell the difference between Modern and Old Irish, so some names could be improved probably):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Province names:

    In AoC, the "two halfs of Ireland" are called Ulster and Munster, but these are only two of the five major regions. While searching for valid settlement names, I stumbled across a legendary division of Ireland that supposedly occcurred in 123 AD. In the division, Conn was granted the northern half (Connacht, Ulster and Meath) while Eoghan (aka Mug) was granted the southern (Munster, Osraighe and Leinster). These would be called Leath Cuinn and Leath Moga (Conn's half and Mug's half). Of course as a division it's completely outdated for this period, but as province names I think those two would serve.

    Gothic language:

    I changed my mind about Drauhtjos again. I think Drauhtos is the correct plural form, since for the word "day" the Gothic terms would be Dags (singular) and Dagos (plural). Also, as Gothic for "herdsman" is Hairdeis (singular, stem Hardja-) and Hairdjos (plural), I think the plural for Gasinthja should be Gasinthjos.

    Edit:
    Also, found the Gothic word for governor (perhaps also meaning regent): Kindins.

    Edit2:
    Furthermore, I had the adjectives wrong. For example, Gutane Athaljas would be "Nobles of the Goths" rather than "Gothic Nobles", I believe it should be either Guta, Gutana or perhaps Gutanai (the last is a plural form). I'll study that a bit more and see if I can come up with a definite answer. Also, speaking of Athaljas, it might be more accurate to use Athalingas, since the form Aethelingas (Old English, meaning "heroes" or "nobles") is used in Beowulf.

    Edit3:
    Ok, I believe I have it figured out now. The adjective forms for "Gothic" (plural) should be as follows: Gutanai (masculine), Gutana (Neutral) and Gutanos (Feminine). As "man" (Manna, plural Mans) is masculine, "Gothic spearmen" would be Gutanai Gaisamans, to give an example. Similarly, "Armoured spearmen" would be Brunjanai Gaisamans and "Chosen archers" Kiusanai Skiutjans.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 08, 2016 at 09:47 AM.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Since I think editing my post for the 4th time would be overkill, I'll just add that I figured out a likely Gothic word for "Taifali". As Gothic is the only known East Germanic language, it probably makes sense to use it for several Germanic factions (namely the Goths, Vandals, Rugii, Gepidae and possibly also the Langobards and the Suebi). In any case, if Taifali is derived from "people of the plain", the Gothic form would be something like Thiuda-falthan, probably shortened to Thiufaleis or Thiufalja (singular forms), in either case the plural would be Thiufaljos.

    It's a speculative form, but I think reasonably supported. First off, there are examples of other peoples/tribes deriving their names from "plains". The obvious examples would be the Saxon groups at the end of the 8th century: Westfalahi and Ostfalahi (Latin forms). Also Slavic tribes such as the Polans (derived from Old Slavic Pole meaning field).

    Finally, the area of Taifali settlement (Poitou) was called Thifalia or Theiphalia during the 6th century, suggesting that the first component of the name was indeed something like Gothic Thiuda or Old English Theod (meaning people). Also, Theiphalia suggest that the last component was indeed close to faldan (Old English for "fold").

    Although I guess Latin terminology would be fine for the Taifali, since they were all foederati at this point (if memory serves).
    Last edited by Charerg; March 08, 2016 at 02:16 PM.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    The Taifali were settled a long time ago, in the early-mid 4th century if memory serves me right. Including them with the Alans and Visigoths isn't a bad idea though, since their Laeti were settled in the same areas.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    It appears I had the Gothic dynasty names a bit wrong. Apparently the form Amelungen appears in the Nibelungenleid as a reference to the Amali dynasty. This means that the dynasty name was most likely "Amalings" or Amalingas (Gothic). The -ing ending was probably fairly common for dynastic names during the era, it also appears in the Scylfing dynasty (as well as the Karlings, of course). So, the faction names should be one of the following options:

    A) Faction names in the form "Kingdom of X":
    - Thiudangardi Amalinge
    - Thiudangardi Balthinge

    B) Or simply use the dynastic names themselves:
    - Amalingos
    - Balthingos


    Using the same format, the Vandal kingdom should probably be referred to as Thiudangardi Hasdinge or Hasdingos.

    For the names of the rulers themselves, I'm a bit uncertain how the -reik ending was used in names. Wikipedia suggests that it was simply -reiks. That said, wikipedia is wikipedia. I think it could have been -reik or perhaps even -reikus, but we'll stick to the "official version" for now. So, the kings of the aforementioned factions would be:

    - Gaizareiks (Gaiseric)
    - Thiudareiks (Theodoric)
    - Walamers (Valamir)

    I'm somewhat unsure of Valamir, but since his name is Βαλαμερ in the Greek alphabet, I think Walamers is plausible.
    Last edited by Charerg; May 01, 2016 at 09:24 AM.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    -reiks is correct, and yes so is the -ing in Amal (Latin dropped that off for -Amali).

    This is some great work, I don't know Gothic so you're teaching me some new stuff!

  16. #156
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Yep, Gothic is pretty interesting. As the oldest known Germanic language, it's interesting to draw parallels between it and other languages.

    I discovered I had the plural for Gadrauhts wrong (Gadrauhtos at the time of writing), it should actually be Gadrauhteis. Damn those Goths for making those plurals different for every word! Anyway, I think the term for "band", "group" or "company" is Hansa, though I have no idea if that was used in a military context.

    One term I was also seeking to track down was the Gothic word for the latin Gastaldus. Given how the term is used in AoC to describe the Lombard units (such as Gastald Guardsmen, Gastald knights) I thought it was a military term meaning something like "vassal" but it turns out that the Gastaldi were actually administrators of royal land (with comparable power to a duke). In other words, they were paid officials who did not directly own their land. I also discovered the Gothic word (probably the origin of the term) is Gastaldan meaning "to gain, to posses". I'm guessing the Gothic name for the title was Gastalds meaning "possessor", if the title existed before Lombard rule (it may have, since I'd think some aspects of the Ostrogoth administration would have survived).

    Aside from that, "commoners" were apparently called Thius (plural Thiwos) though this is also translated as "servant". However, there is also the term Skalks (plural Skalkos) meaning servant, possibly even slave, and it seems clear that a Thius was generally held to have a higher status than a Skalks. I guess Thiwos could be used as a sort of "rabble unit" as part of a garrison.

  17. #157
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    Hmm... I wonder how many of these terms are preserved in codicies like the Lex Euriacensis and whatnot. Because looking for differences could give us some nice variety between the Balti and Amali goths (Visi and Ostrogoths).

    I need to check Guy Halsall, he has a nice passage on 6th century Visigothic military organization.

  18. #158
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    I added the province names for Britain, Gaul, Noricum and Rhaetia. The abbreviations are as follows:

    - A. (Aquitania)
    - B. (Belgica)
    - L. (Lugdunensis)
    - M. (Maxima)
    - N. (Narbonensis)
    - R. (Rhaetia)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Of course, the AoC provinces don't 100% correspond with the late Roman ones. As such, there are some areas where I could use feedback:

    - I think Aquitania, M. Sequanorum, Narbonensis, Noricum and Rhaetia translate pretty well to the AoC map
    - However, with Belgica and Lugdunensis it gets tricky. Here I chose to primarily indentify the provinces via their capitals, so AoC Burgundy (capital Lyon, or Lugdunum) is L. Prima (also, it would have been weird to have L. Secunda, Tertia and Quarta without the "Prima").
    - I'm also uncertain about Wales, here I used Valentia, but perhaps Litauia would be better?

    A note on Scotland: I chose to use the Gaelic name for "Pictland" (Cruithentuath) for the place since I think it's as close to accurate as possible.


    Re: Gothic
    The word Aqizi for "axe" appears in the Wulfila bible (once), as a translation for Greek ἀξίνη (axini, mattock). Although the relevant passage talks about felling trees, so might be specific for wood-axe or axe in general. In any case, I guess Aqizamans would be the term for "Axemen".
    Last edited by Charerg; March 11, 2016 at 01:22 PM.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    May I add just a small, side note to this interesting discussion about High German during the Late Antiquity and/or the Early Middle Age?

    In Langobard Italy it was in use also the term "Gasindius" (from the German "Gesinde", Old English "ġesī" “companion, fellow, comrade; companion or follower of a "athel" or king), they were free-men, i.e. "Arimanni" (Langobard: "Hariman", man of the army, that is "Free-man in arms"), and minor nobles, and they formed the retinue of the King (Comitatus) and of the most important Dukes; after the Fall of the Kingdom on 774, they slowly turned in to "Vassi", the basic title in the new emerging Carolingian Feudal System. The "Gasidii" are still attested in Medieval Italy during the XI century, then they vanish.

    Instead "Gastaldi" (German: "Gestellen") in the Langobard Kingdom, were administrators of the "curtis regia" (Royal Estate), that is, high ranking civil and political officers; the most important among them were called "Conti" (Latin "Comites"), anyway their title was by direct appointment of the king and lasted one year; "Gastaldo" is still recorded in XII century and even during the XVII century they are still attested "Gastaldie" in Friuli (minor territorial entities in North Eastern Italy); anyway, the growth of the ducal power compared to the real power of the king, marked the decay of the institute during the later phase of the Kingdom. Placed at the dependences of the Duke, and no more of the king, with reduced functions, at the time of the Franks, the "Gastaldi" eventually no longer differentiate themselves from the mass of other civil servants, of minor importance.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: - INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

    If the british provinces are given british names like the towns you could call Northumbria "Yr Hen Ogledd", the old north

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